Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 3,327
    CrabKey wrote: »
    When humor sucks the fear and vulnerability out a character, then that character is no longer believable. We don't hold our breath because we know the danger isn't real. A wink, a smile, a silly remark inform us our man is not in danger. It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger, even in the much praised centrifuge scene from MR. Craig's Bond was a bit too much the other way. Could have used a bit more, but he never really came across as much of a wit, certainly not a natural one. I want more wit and cleverness from our next Bond, but not silliness.

    Yes well said. It's a fine balance, which you nailed perfectly.
  • Posts: 6,709
    I've been on a Bond hiatus in recent years since the release of Bond 25, and I think after the strike ended a spark has ignited in a lot of fans who became disenchanted with the franchise after how that film ended. Anyway I watched Tomorrow Never Dies on Amazon Prime the other night, and I think I'm starting to appreciate how underrated Brosnans films were, because so many classic bond elements basically went extinct after he left the role. . . .

    Thanks for that post, I enjoyed reading it and a lot of what you said resonated with me. I smiled at the bit quoted above, because after watching NTTD the first Bond film I reached for (as a Bondian movie sorbet, so to speak) was Tomorrow Never Dies, which is my favourite Brozza Bond, and a film that is just plain, rattling good fun.
    Crikey, I needed it after No Time to Die.

    I too went for TND after NTTD :)
  • Posts: 2,159
    Univex wrote: »
    I've been on a Bond hiatus in recent years since the release of Bond 25, and I think after the strike ended a spark has ignited in a lot of fans who became disenchanted with the franchise after how that film ended. Anyway I watched Tomorrow Never Dies on Amazon Prime the other night, and I think I'm starting to appreciate how underrated Brosnans films were, because so many classic bond elements basically went extinct after he left the role. . . .

    Thanks for that post, I enjoyed reading it and a lot of what you said resonated with me. I smiled at the bit quoted above, because after watching NTTD the first Bond film I reached for (as a Bondian movie sorbet, so to speak) was Tomorrow Never Dies, which is my favourite Brozza Bond, and a film that is just plain, rattling good fun.
    Crikey, I needed it after No Time to Die.

    I too went for TND after NTTD :)

    TND... definitely Bond comfort food.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I've been wondering lately about what kind of action sequences people would like to see going forward? For example, I've always thought Spectre wasted the opportunity for a really exciting ski sequence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,347
    I think ski sequences are difficult because it's pretty contrived to get someone on skis going down a mountain.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,961
    They found a way to have Bond chase down some cars using a giant plane, I'm sure they could find a way to fluidly incorporate another ski sequence.

    I'll take just about anything they give us when it comes to more action in the snow though; the only one we had in the Craig era was very disappointing.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    They found a way to have Bond chase down some cars using a giant plane, I'm sure they could find a way to fluidly incorporate another ski sequence.

    I'll take just about anything they give us when it comes to more action in the snow though; the only one we had in the Craig era was very disappointing.

    Would have been cool to have Bond grab a set of skis after leaving the Hoffler clinic while other Spectre goons chased on skis while Bond was trying to keep tabs on the cars.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,961
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    They found a way to have Bond chase down some cars using a giant plane, I'm sure they could find a way to fluidly incorporate another ski sequence.

    I'll take just about anything they give us when it comes to more action in the snow though; the only one we had in the Craig era was very disappointing.

    Would have been cool to have Bond grab a set of skis after leaving the Hoffler clinic while other Spectre goons chased on skis while Bond was trying to keep tabs on the cars.

    This would've been so much better. Hell, even a snowy car chase would've been an improvement.
  • Denbigh wrote: »
    I've been wondering lately about what kind of action sequences people would like to see going forward? For example, I've always thought Spectre wasted the opportunity for a really exciting ski sequence.

    Like the entire London action sequence at the middle of Skyfall. From Silva's escape until the end of the courtroom shootout. Excpet for the tube crashing, the action itself during this sequence is nothing spectacular, but all of it is really great thanks to how it was shot & edited and that every bit of it serves to tell the story.
  • mtm wrote: »
    I think ski sequences are difficult because it's pretty contrived to get someone on skis going down a mountain.

    You also invite even more comparisons to OHMSS as a result, which still has impressive ski sequences even to this day!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,347
    I think skiing a plane fuselage is more original than a ski chase; it just didn't come off as well as perhaps it should have.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think ski sequences are difficult because it's pretty contrived to get someone on skis going down a mountain.

    You also invite even more comparisons to OHMSS as a result, which still has impressive ski sequences even to this day!

    It certainly does, and FYEO does a brilliant job too- and puts them in a ski resort, which makes as much sense as a ski scene could. TWINE on the other hand...
    Whenever I go skiing I am struck by how silly ski chases are: the chances that both you and the baddies would be starting from the top of a mountain, and both happen to be wearing skis, seem pretty low.
  • I know ski chases have become a bit of a Bond trope but it’s not one I really have any desire to see again. They’ve done it too many times already imo. Could incorporate some speed riding to make it feel more exciting, but Mission Impossible did speed flying in the last one didn’t they so I’m not sure they’d go there. The parkour on skis idea from the SP leaks seemed cool, but I don’t know how you’d get to that bit without doing another OHMSS style chase down a mountain first.

    I want them to be as novel as possible with the action scenes. Give us some stunts we haven’t seen before and try to be a bit more clever than “Bond shoots him, then him, then him” (although to be fair NTTD did do that very, very well with that stairwell gunfight). Maybe something with a wingsuit? I’m surprised they haven’t done that yet. I’d love to see DN’s obstacle course in a film too, complete with the giant squid.
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    They found a way to have Bond chase down some cars using a giant plane, I'm sure they could find a way to fluidly incorporate another ski sequence.

    I'll take just about anything they give us when it comes to more action in the snow though; the only one we had in the Craig era was very disappointing.

    Would have been cool to have Bond grab a set of skis after leaving the Hoffler clinic while other Spectre goons chased on skis while Bond was trying to keep tabs on the cars.

    This would've been so much better. Hell, even a snowy car chase would've been an improvement.

    I remember someone on here years ago suggesting Bond escaping by driving down a mountain slope. Could be quite tense if they do it right, the car thundering down in the snow, Bond struggling to keep any kind of control.

    I’ll die on the hill that the plane chase in SP could have been great though. Imagine the nah nah nah nahhh bit of the Bond theme kicking in when he appears in the plane, him flying low and having to pull off some tricky ariel stunts to avoid losing them. It’s a decent idea imo, just let down by the limp direction of it and the score.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,638
    I don't know if it was me, but I have pitched the car on a slope before. Top Gear did it with a bright red Jaguar once, and it was spectacular.
  • LucknFate wrote: »
    I don't know if it was me, but I have pitched the car on a slope before. Top Gear did it with a bright red Jaguar once, and it was spectacular.

    I think it might well have been you y’know mate, because now that I think about it, I’m sure I remember the person suggesting it posting a clip of that Top Gear episode too. It is a great idea.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,638
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I don't know if it was me, but I have pitched the car on a slope before. Top Gear did it with a bright red Jaguar once, and it was spectacular.

    I think it might well have been you y’know mate, because now that I think about it, I’m sure I remember the person suggesting it posting a clip of that Top Gear episode too. It is a great idea.

    It's a "tank through the wall in GoldenEye" type moment for me, which I think Bond is good at. When he becomes a blunt instrument. I also have a scene in my head with a superyacht and helicopter... at some point the helicopter crashes into the yacht and the finale takes place on a burning, sinking ship.
  • Posts: 133
    CrabKey wrote: »
    It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger
    What about the crocodile scenes in LALD and the climbing scenes in FYEO?

  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 934
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger
    What about the crocodile scenes in LALD and the climbing scenes in FYEO?

    What about when he was in bed with Grace Jones?
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    It was that aspect of the Moore series I never liked. I never felt his Bond was really in danger
    What about the crocodile scenes in LALD and the climbing scenes in FYEO?

    What about when he was in bed with Grace Jones?

    Never has Bond been in such peril, before or since. Well. Maybe Casino. You know what she had under those blankets after all…
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,347
    I remember someone on here years ago suggesting Bond escaping by driving down a mountain slope. Could be quite tense if they do it right, the car thundering down in the snow, Bond struggling to keep any kind of control.

    When I saw the NTTD trailer with the Land Rovers doing that crazy jumping down the landscape I was hoping we were going to get a real crazy, landmark offroad chase. But it was a bit featureless in the end and they didn't really have any big ideas for it.
    I’ll die on the hill that the plane chase in SP could have been great though. Imagine the nah nah nah nahhh bit of the Bond theme kicking in when he appears in the plane, him flying low and having to pull off some tricky ariel stunts to avoid losing them. It’s a decent idea imo, just let down by the limp direction of it and the score.

    I'm totally with you there: I think it had great potential which didn't really come off. And I do like the final stunt of piloting the wingless plane- that's a good idea. If I had two scripts in front of me, one with 'ski chase' and one with 'wingless plane skiing' on it, I'd pick the plane one every time.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 934
    ‘Wingless plane skiing’ feels much more Indiana Jones than James Bond to me.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,610
    ‘Wingless plane skiing’ feels much more Indiana Jones than James Bond to me.

    I can agree. I also believe that IceBreaker, could have worked as an Older Indiana Jones novel. Just have him be looking for an artifact, in the 40s, 50s, or 60s.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,347
    ‘Wingless plane skiing’ feels much more Indiana Jones than James Bond to me.

    I can't really see that: Indy doesn't do the sort of lateral thinking that Bond does in these action scenes, where he does whatever is logical to achieve his aims, regardless of how ridiculous it is. So he drives a tank though a traffic jam, he uses crocodiles as a bridge, he escapes in a Moon Buggy, he waterskis behind a seaplane etc.
    Indy is more about using old school grit to win. Usually that means riding a horse(!) or just punching the baddies as hard as he can. He rarely goes clever or particularly cool in his action in the way that Bond does. Using a vehicle in an unconventional way to give chase is very much more a 007 thing, I'd say.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 934
    mtm wrote: »
    ‘Wingless plane skiing’ feels much more Indiana Jones than James Bond to me.

    I can't really see that: Indy doesn't do the sort of lateral thinking that Bond does in these action scenes, where he does whatever is logical to achieve his aims, regardless of how ridiculous it is. So he drives a tank though a traffic jam, he uses crocodiles as a bridge, he escapes in a Moon Buggy, he waterskis behind a seaplane etc.
    Indy is more about using old school grit to win. Usually that means riding a horse(!) or just punching the baddies as hard as he can. He rarely goes clever or particularly cool in his action in the way that Bond does. Using a vehicle in an unconventional way to give chase is very much more a 007 thing, I'd say.
    Doesn’t Indy use an inflatable dinghy to survive leaping out of a plane, then use it to skid down a mountain in Temple of Doom?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,347
    Yes, that is a Bondy move. But I'd say not typical of his kind of thing- 007 does way more of that.
    And don't forget that he doesn't want to be skidding down the mountain: he's basically having a big accident there. I know that Bond doesn't want to lose the wings from his plane, but the difference is that he sees a way to make that a win.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 934
    There are only 5 Indiana Jones films, he does this stuff less because there are fewer films, but improvising (‘I’m making this stuff up as I go along’, or words to that effect) is what he does.

    I’d argue that the more ridiculous stuff from the films is where Bond is getting away from its core, where as big outlandish fantasy adventure is in Indy’s, Indiana Jones being very influenced by old movie serials.
  • Posts: 1,973
    @DEKE_RIVERS - Apples and oranges. That's a different conversation and one worth having.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,056
    Why mess with it! James Bond defended by Bolton.

    Debate of sorts from a UK news channel from yesterday.
  • Posts: 1,858
    The above clip is simply insane. These are not Bond fans or people who understand the franchise................not to mention not one of them acknowledges the existence of Nomi. This was theatre of the absurd.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,056
    I have often found that many who want to change something either know little about what they want to change or have little interest in it in the first place. Alas I have heard similar discussions elsewhere when it comes to Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,347
    There are only 5 Indiana Jones films, he does this stuff less because there are fewer films, but improvising (‘I’m making this stuff up as I go along’, or words to that effect) is what he does.

    I’d argue that the more ridiculous stuff from the films is where Bond is getting away from its core, where as big outlandish fantasy adventure is in Indy’s, Indiana Jones being very influenced by old movie serials.

    Nah, even with fewer films it’s a proportional thing. A Bond moment is those moments where thinks laterally in a cool way to achieve his objective: that’s when the theme gets played and that’s why we like him- because he does unexpected things to turn the situation to his advantage, often almost effortlessly. So if there’s a heat-seeking missile behind him, he does an acrobatic stunt to use that to blow up his objective. If a snowmobile has blown up in front of him, he uses its ski as a sort of snow surfboard. A cello case becomes a sled; a Citroen 2CV becomes an off-roader; a plane ejector seat becomes a missile… there are so many of these; this is how Bond works. His ‘cool’ in action scenes comes from these clever ideas where Bond sees an audacious solution. They’re so audacious there’s often humour in them for the audience. The tank scene in GoldenEye is funny.
    Indy action scenes on the other hand are much more down to Earth: he rides a horse to catch up with a truck and punches everyone on it (a bit of cleverness by working his way underneath it); he has a fist fight by a plane; he jumps onto a tank and fights/shoots the baddies etc. There’s some wit and invention in there because that’s an action staple, like jousting on motorbikes, but it’s not really his style in the way that it’s Bond’s defining action trait.
    Now, Bond cutting his own wings off accidentally does have a touch of Indy I agree, because Indy often makes mistakes, but Bond then deciding to drive the plane down the slope in order to intercept the baddies is true 007 audacious invention stuff in the tradition of the GE tank etc.
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