Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (30th June 2023)

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,026
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Saw it in the cinema. Enjoyable. But certainly no rival to 'Raiders'
    J.Lee Thompson the director I believe?
    Anyone remember the T.V. show 'Bring Em Back Alive'?

    Actually, I was the second assistant film editor on King Solomon's Mines. J. Lee Thompson was a wonderful gentleman. Got to meet Jerry Goldsmith who did the score. He was an interesting, laid back character. The film actually opened very well, at number 1 in US with a $15 million weekend, which, if u consider it was 1985, was pretty damn good. Because we did that film, Cannon hired the editor, John Shirley, myself and rest of team to do Superman IV - but, as we all know, that didn't go so well.

    His Cape Fear is one of my favourite films, and superior to Scorcese's version in nearly every way.
  • Posts: 6,799
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Saw it in the cinema. Enjoyable. But certainly no rival to 'Raiders'
    J.Lee Thompson the director I believe?
    Anyone remember the T.V. show 'Bring Em Back Alive'?

    Actually, I was the second assistant film editor on King Solomon's Mines. J. Lee Thompson was a wonderful gentleman. Got to meet Jerry Goldsmith who did the score. He was an interesting, laid back character. The film actually opened very well, at number 1 in US with a $15 million weekend, which, if u consider it was 1985, was pretty damn good. Because we did that film, Cannon hired the editor, John Shirley, myself and rest of team to do Superman IV - but, as we all know, that didn't go so well.

    His Cape Fear is one of my favourite films, and superior to Scorcese's version in nearly every way.

    Totally agree! Hated the remake, and as I said before, Mitchum is far more menacing than DeNiro biting lumps out of people!
  • Posts: 1,453
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Saw it in the cinema. Enjoyable. But certainly no rival to 'Raiders'
    J.Lee Thompson the director I believe?
    Anyone remember the T.V. show 'Bring Em Back Alive'?

    Actually, I was the second assistant film editor on King Solomon's Mines. J. Lee Thompson was a wonderful gentleman. Got to meet Jerry Goldsmith who did the score. He was an interesting, laid back character. The film actually opened very well, at number 1 in US with a $15 million weekend, which, if u consider it was 1985, was pretty damn good. Because we did that film, Cannon hired the editor, John Shirley, myself and rest of team to do Superman IV - but, as we all know, that didn't go so well.

    His Cape Fear is one of my favourite films, and superior to Scorcese's version in nearly every way.

    I agree. J. Lee's original Cape Fear is superior to the remake. He was such a nice, kind, intelligent man, and, I think, because he wanted to keep working, he took the Cannon jobs, but he did love Charles Bronson.
  • Posts: 372
    I remember Bring em Back Alive, good fun but the best TV Indy rip off was Tales of the Gold Monkey with Stephen Collins and Roddy McDowall. Both series sadly short lived
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    J. Lee Thompson directed the last two Apes movies in the 70's. I thought he did a wonderful job on both, given the TV movie budgets. And his Cape Fear was so much better than the remake.
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Actually, I was the second assistant film editor on King Solomon's Mines. J. Lee Thompson was a wonderful gentleman. Got to meet Jerry Goldsmith who did the score. He was an interesting, laid back character. The film actually opened very well, at number 1 in US with a $15 million weekend, which, if u consider it was 1985, was pretty damn good. Because we did that film, Cannon hired the editor, John Shirley, myself and the rest of the team to do Superman IV - but, as we all know, that didn't go so well.
    I can't resist asking this question here: was Superman IV a more interesting film before Cannon made you guys slice a half hour out of it?
  • Posts: 1,453
    chrisisall wrote: »
    J. Lee Thompson directed the last two Apes movies in the 70's. I thought he did a wonderful job on both, given the TV movie budgets. And his Cape Fear was so much better than the remake.
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Actually, I was the second assistant film editor on King Solomon's Mines. J. Lee Thompson was a wonderful gentleman. Got to meet Jerry Goldsmith who did the score. He was an interesting, laid back character. The film actually opened very well, at number 1 in US with a $15 million weekend, which, if u consider it was 1985, was pretty damn good. Because we did that film, Cannon hired the editor, John Shirley, myself and the rest of the team to do Superman IV - but, as we all know, that didn't go so well.
    I can't resist asking this question here: was Superman IV a more interesting film before Cannon made you guys slice a half hour out of it?

    Superman IV was much better in its full version. It was Warners, not Cannon, who wanted the cuts for the US release. But, due to the international release date, there was no time to do two very different versions, although Cannon's international version has two action scenes, the tornado sequence and the nuclear missile in Red Square, which were cut from the US release, but they were easy to keep.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    The full version would have been more coherent, for sure. Still marred by production issues and questionable story choices that kneecapped the film right from the start.

    I do recall you saying that originally Superman was supposed to rescue Lacy from the upper atmosphere rather than outer space. Then what was the deal with Jeremy during the “one small world” scene that got deleted? Because there’s that bit at the end where they both wave to the cosmonauts from the first scene, which suggests having both Lacy and Jeremy up in space with Superman was baked in.

    I could actually roll with the idea of rescuing Lacy from space before she freezes to death. She’s only up there for like 30 seconds. But Supes bringing up Jeremy to have a chat? I have to imagine that was deleted partly because it was even more implausible.
  • Posts: 1,453
    The full version would have been more coherent, for sure. Still marred by production issues and questionable story choices that kneecapped the film right from the start.

    I do recall you saying that originally Superman was supposed to rescue Lacy from the upper atmosphere rather than outer space. Then what was the deal with Jeremy during the “one small world” scene that got deleted? Because there’s that bit at the end where they both wave to the cosmonauts from the first scene, which suggests having both Lacy and Jeremy up in space with Superman was baked in.

    I could actually roll with the idea of rescuing Lacy from space before she freezes to death. She’s only up there for like 30 seconds. But Supes bringing up Jeremy to have a chat? I have to imagine that was deleted partly because it was even more implausible.

    To be honest I can't remember exactly what went on there with the kid in space. There were many inconsistencies during the making of the film as ideas changed. I liked Sidney Furie, he was friendly and treated us all with respect, but he had a loose understanding of Superman and his powers. At one point in the editing, he wanted to make Superman telepathic, can't recall which scene, but we had to remind him that is not one of Superman's powers.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    That would explain the odd moment where Superman intensely stares at his spaceship and it just disintegrates. Also on a longer version of the flying scene that got cut out, we get Superman letting Lois fly solo for extended periods of time, I assume he’s using some kind of telekinesis to do that. We sort of get something like that in the final edit but it’s played so short and just looks like Lois falling diagonally.

    It is surprising that Cannon’s international cut never made it beyond VHS/Laserdisc. Even SUPERGIRL had multiple cuts released on DVD. I wonder if that would be a rights issue entangled by MGM (and now Amazon) owning the Cannon film library, and WB could only put out their US cut.
  • Posts: 1,453
    That would explain the odd moment where Superman intensely stares at his spaceship and it just disintegrates. Also on a longer version of the flying scene that got cut out, we get Superman letting Lois fly solo for extended periods of time, I assume he’s using some kind of telekinesis to do that. We sort of get something like that in the final edit but it’s played so short and just looks like Lois falling diagonally.

    It is surprising that Cannon’s international cut never made it beyond VHS/Laserdisc. Even SUPERGIRL had multiple cuts released on DVD. I wonder if that would be a rights issue entangled by MGM (and now Amazon) owning the Cannon film library, and WB could only put out their US cut.

    Yeah, I think there were some issues re: Superman's powers. Chris Reeve was definitely on edge about that stuff when he joined us in the cutting rooms, although he was such a professional and nice guy, he never made his worries explicit, but you could sense his concerns.
  • Posts: 1,394
    There’s a guy on YouTube called APRICEPRODUCTIONS who has taken it upon himself to remaster and redo the bad fx shots.It’s such good work that a lot of fans have called upon WB to let him remaster and re-edit the whole film.

    Some examples..






  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 986
    Huh, i seem to be lost, i thought this was the INDIANA JONES thread.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2023 Posts: 8,020
    *moved to Indy thread*
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,862
    Huh, i seem to be lost, i thought this was the INDIANA JONES thread.

    Good point @TheSkyfallen06
    @AstonLotus please be mindful of what you're posting. We have a dedicated Superman thread, where your videos would be suitable.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,980
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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited August 2023 Posts: 4,102


    Getting somewhat back on topic here… They really should have waited before confirming the game.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Benny wrote: »
    Huh, i seem to be lost, i thought this was the INDIANA JONES thread.

    Good point @TheSkyfallen06
    @AstonLotus please be mindful of what you're posting. We have a dedicated Superman thread, where your videos would be suitable.

    I already moved the discussion to the Superman thread before you posted that.

  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,427
    MaxCasino wrote: »


    Getting somewhat back on topic here… They really should have waited before confirming the game.

    I really don't want a murder-sim game for Indiana Jones, even if it's Nazis. I should be able to play an entire Indy game without murdering someone if I choose.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2023 Posts: 5,949
    mtm wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I was planning a marathon of the first four a little closer to the release of this fifth installment but I'm impatient and really wanted to revisit this series. What's everyone's ranking these days? It had been so long since I last saw these, I didn't know what to expect. Mine would have to be:

    1. Temple of Doom
    2. Raiders of the Lost Ark
    3. The Last Crusade
    4. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

    I had forgotten just how much I love Temple of Doom, it's such a perfect action-adventure film to me. I love the darker tone and its pacing is seriously flawless.

    I think I'd still rank Raiders above it, but I remain baffled by people who say Temple is a bad film. As you say, the pacing is flawless and it's just one of the best adventure movies ever made. The first act, from musical sequence to diamond exchange to nightclub brawl to car chase to plane escape to white river ride, is an opening sequence which no Bond film can match, it's amazing.
    For me Raiders is the better film overall; but Temple is better-directed, plus I think Ford was really at his movie star peak by this point and is even better than he was in Raiders.
    Crusade is still excellent, but perhaps just a little ragged in places comparatively.

    I agree with this. Also I love the flirting and the ending of TOD, and yes, Short Round.

    Sure there is a lot of screaming but she is a lounge singer, unlike (ahem) Stacey Sutton.

    I finally got around to seeing Dial of Destiny after avoiding spoilers these many months. My immediate reaction is that I liked it, but maybe didn't love it. It was really great to see Ford and Karen Allen. The beginning was so obvious CGI. The action standout was the horse/subway sequence (whose ending joke seems inspired by SF).

    I liked that Indy ended up in a past of which he was in awe, where he could (maybe) stay/die, where he spoke the language...that was all true to the character and his profession. I didn't understand how the Nazi played by Mads could be *that* far off in time (the explanation is continental drift?!?).

    I'm wondering if an earlier version of the script gave Indy the opportunity to go back in time to kill baby Hitler. I kind of think it did.

    I also wished that Act III of the movie had a "test" for Indy as Raiders and Crusade did.

    But in general, I did enjoy it and didn't find it egregious like the last film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,920
    Indy was wrong about the continental drift: it was Archimedes who had forced the deck and ensured that anyone who used the dial would end up at the siege to help the natives of Syracuse.

    There was an early idea that the dial would take them back to WW2, but Mangold threw that out quite early as it didn’t work with the story.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    edited September 2023 Posts: 8,672
    I'm just spending my evening surfing on the internet (like here), not really surprising, but this time listening to the score of DOD on my headphones while doing that. Even though it is a cheap (paid less than 40 euros for it) bluetooth headphone and the music comes from YouTube in MP3 quality (as Disney doesn't seem to want to release it in a lossless and physical version), the score is, in my opinion, probably one of the best that John Williams ever composed, and probably the best overall of the Indiana Jones movies. It's a f...ing shame that it is not available in a pristinely perfect version. I'd spend more on it than on almost any of the CDs I bought during the last 40 years or so. Or give me a high-class FLAC download if you don't feel like producing disks. It's just absolutely perfect, and that's not even saying that the film itself is in the top three of IJ movies. (But No. 4 at the very least.)

    What's missing on YouTube, for some strange reason, is the entire closing credits score. That's about 10 minutes (IIRC) of beautiful music, for which I insisted on remaining seated at the cinema twice, and that's another (you know what) shame.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    the score is, in my opinion, probably one of the best that John Williams ever composed, and probably the best overall of the Indiana Jones movies.
    Wow! That's saying something!
  • Posts: 1,394
    I would rate it as the weakest of Williams Indy scores to be honest but still good.

    The album seems to be missing the traditional end title march,along with all the new themes Williams composed for the film.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I would rate it as the weakest of Williams Indy scores to be honest but still good.

    The album seems to be missing the traditional end title march,along with all the new themes Williams composed for the film.

    Edit: Double post.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,920
    It’s a very lovely score

    The idea was, as with CR, he doesn’t have his mojo yet, so the march isn’t there. The film is very carefully thought about.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited September 2023 Posts: 23,263
    I purchased the score to DOD, it's the weakest in the series for me a bit lacklustre and noticed a few ponderous cues taken from Williams later Star Wars scores.

    What irritated me during the film is Helena's theme played a lot, there were instances where Indys theme should have been playing and not Helena's IMO.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    mtm wrote: »
    It’s a very lovely score

    The idea was, as with CR, he doesn’t have his mojo yet, so the march isn’t there. The film is very carefully thought about.

    That was my take as well.
  • j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I'm just spending my evening surfing on the internet (like here), not really surprising, but this time listening to the score of DOD on my headphones while doing that. Even though it is a cheap (paid less than 40 euros for it) bluetooth headphone and the music comes from YouTube in MP3 quality (as Disney doesn't seem to want to release it in a lossless and physical version), the score is, in my opinion, probably one of the best that John Williams ever composed, and probably the best overall of the Indiana Jones movies. It's a f...ing shame that it is not available in a pristinely perfect version. I'd spend more on it than on almost any of the CDs I bought during the last 40 years or so. Or give me a high-class FLAC download if you don't feel like producing disks. It's just absolutely perfect, and that's not even saying that the film itself is in the top three of IJ movies. (But No. 4 at the very least.)

    What's missing on YouTube, for some strange reason, is the entire closing credits score. That's about 10 minutes (IIRC) of beautiful music, for which I insisted on remaining seated at the cinema twice, and that's another (you know what) shame.

    I'd say its the worst score of the Indy movies, but still decent overall. There wasn't any memorable themes that I noticed (a typical hallmark of Williams) which was disappointing. I also think the Indy theme wasn't used enough in the movie. It didn't have any of those uplifting moments when the Indy theme plays (like in Raiders when Ford climbs onto the submarine and the crew on the other boat start cheering).

    I listened through the end credits the other day (wow, there are a lot of named credits on this movie!) and was surprised not to hear the Indy march at the very end wrap the film credits up like all previous ones have done.

    My other gripe with the movie having seen it again is the lack of open titles and using the Paramount logo to replicate a mountain shape. As fan service, they should have done this, and not sure why they didn't.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,672
    The lack of the Raiders' March playing over the end credits seems quite a logical way of making it clear that this was Indy's final adventure. In the first four, I always took it to indicate that the saga will go on.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,920
    It’s just Williams’ style now: he didn’t do it with the last Star Wars either.

    The Lucasfilm logo transitioned into the film this time rather than the Paramount one.
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