The What if thread...M had been re-cast for CR 2006? page 60

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Love those casting choices! Especially John Lone, he looks the part.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 890
    thedove wrote: »
    Love those casting choices! Especially John Lone, he looks the part.
    Thanks! Lone would definitively have been the instinctive choice for Sir Henry Lee Ching (or Sir Henry Ferguson if we base ourselves on Davis and Osborne's draft). Same goes for Dolph Lundgren, the Rodin part seems to be written for him.

    Regarding the rest of the casting, I had in mind Richard E. Grant for the part of Otto Winkhart (described as disbarred lawyer in his early 40s) and James Hong for the one of Quen Low, the Chinese Intelligence Chief.

    Could be fun to also cast Dalton's other GoldenEye, based on Michael France's 1994 script (I say other since, according to Ruggiero, "GoldenEye" was already suggested as a title back in 1991 for Dalton's early potential third film).
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    edited March 2023 Posts: 539
    thedove wrote: »
    What say you Mi6 casting directors, what if Bond 17 had been made, whose in the cast with Tim?

    What a great what if! Basing myself on the descriptions made in Ruggiero and Wilson's screenplay, here it is:


    Sir Henry Lee Ching: John Lone (The Last Emperor)
    A youngish 30 year old mixture of a Chinese father and a British aristocratic mother.
    last_emperor.jpg


    Connie Webb: Jill Hennessy (Robocop 3)
    An American adventuress in her early thirties.
    MV5BNGM5NDQ1MGQtODQwYi00Y2IxLTkwYmQtMDA4NzA1NWFlYzQyXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTc5MDI5NjE@._V1_.jpg


    Denholm Crisp: Oliver Reed (The Three Musketeers)
    A huge Anglo in his mid fifties, wearing a tent-sized Hawaiian shirt.
    MV5BN2UwNDdkOTktZmVlNC00MmQ1LTkzODQtNGZjNjY0N2Q2MDA2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjUyNDk2ODc@._V1_.jpg


    Mai Way: Joan Chen (Twin Peaks)
    A Chinese Intelligence Officer.
    48fbe839628f265f429c217ac804743c.jpg


    Nigel Yupland: Hugh Grant (Maurice)
    A young rising star in the Ministry of Defense.
    maxresdefault.jpg


    Rodin: Dolph Lundgren (Rocky IV)
    A strong looking Eastern European bodyguard type.
    MV5BZmUwMWVkMGQtNjZiYy00Mzc2LTlmMDUtNzJkNWYzNDM2OTcxXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTA0NzE2MzA@._V1_.jpg

    Funny as Reed was exactly who I had in mind for Sir Denholm when I first read the treatment. I'd have loved to have seen him in a Bond film, and opposite Dalton would've been epic. Would they have gotten on though?
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,811
    thedove wrote: »
    What say you Mi6 casting directors, what if Bond 17 had been made, whose in the cast with Tim?

    What a great what if! Basing myself on the descriptions made in Ruggiero and Wilson's screenplay, here it is:


    Sir Henry Lee Ching: John Lone (The Last Emperor)
    A youngish 30 year old mixture of a Chinese father and a British aristocratic mother.
    last_emperor.jpg


    Connie Webb: Jill Hennessy (Robocop 3)
    An American adventuress in her early thirties.
    MV5BNGM5NDQ1MGQtODQwYi00Y2IxLTkwYmQtMDA4NzA1NWFlYzQyXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTc5MDI5NjE@._V1_.jpg


    Denholm Crisp: Oliver Reed (The Three Musketeers)
    A huge Anglo in his mid fifties, wearing a tent-sized Hawaiian shirt.
    MV5BN2UwNDdkOTktZmVlNC00MmQ1LTkzODQtNGZjNjY0N2Q2MDA2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjUyNDk2ODc@._V1_.jpg


    Mai Way: Joan Chen (Twin Peaks)
    A Chinese Intelligence Officer.
    48fbe839628f265f429c217ac804743c.jpg


    Nigel Yupland: Hugh Grant (Maurice)
    A young rising star in the Ministry of Defense.
    maxresdefault.jpg


    Rodin: Dolph Lundgren (Rocky IV)
    A strong looking Eastern European bodyguard type.
    MV5BZmUwMWVkMGQtNjZiYy00Mzc2LTlmMDUtNzJkNWYzNDM2OTcxXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTA0NzE2MzA@._V1_.jpg

    Funny as Reed was exactly who I had in mind for Sir Denholm when I first read the treatment. I'd have loved to have seen him in a Bond film, and opposite Dalton would've been epic. Would they have gotten on though?

    Would or could anyone have gotten on with Ollie?
    Great actor, but hard work off screen if all is too be believed.
    Peter O'Toole is an actor who should've been in a Bond film imo, and Oliver Reed could've been a good choice. On the right day of course.
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Haydock, England
    edited March 2023 Posts: 254
    thedove wrote: »
    Love those casting choices! Especially John Lone, he looks the part.
    Thanks! Lone would definitively have been the instinctive choice for Sir Henry Lee Ching (or Sir Henry Ferguson if we base ourselves on Davis and Osborne's draft). Same goes for Dolph Lundgren, the Rodin part seems to be written for him.

    Regarding the rest of the casting, I had in mind Richard E. Grant for the part of Otto Winkhart (described as disbarred lawyer in his early 40s) and James Hong for the one of Quen Low, the Chinese Intelligence Chief.

    Could be fun to also cast Dalton's other GoldenEye, based on Michael France's 1994 script (I say other since, according to Ruggiero, "GoldenEye" was already suggested as a title back in 1991 for Dalton's early potential third film).

    Excellent choices. Lone, Chen and Lundgren are my two default choices for Ching, Mi Wai and Chen. As for Winkhart and Quen Low, I always select Stellan Skarsgard and Anthony Wong. But here’s my definitive cast for Property of a Lady:

    Property of a Lady

    James Bond - Timothy Dalton
    Connie Webb - Elizabeth Hurley
    Sir Henry Lee Ching - John Lone
    Denholm Crisp - Ian Holm
    Mi Wai - Joan Chen
    Otto Winkhart - Stellan Skarsgard
    Rodin - Dolph Lundgren
    Quen Low - Anthony Wong
    Nigel Yupland - Hugh Laurie

    For those wondering why I’s gone with Ian Holm in the role of Crisp, I see Anthony Hopkins as Augustus Trevelyan in the Dalton version of GoldenEye.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Excellent casting choices. Would this eliminate Hurley from co-starring in Austin Powers? The mind boggles at the thought.

    For those looking for more details this was just published on the main site today:

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/bond17-1990?id=05188
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Haydock, England
    Posts: 254
    thedove wrote: »
    Excellent casting choices. Would this eliminate Hurley from co-starring in Austin Powers? The mind boggles at the thought.

    For those looking for more details this was just published on the main site today:

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/bond17-1990?id=05188

    I think it’s because Hurley would have been 26 in 1991, so she would fit the age description for Connie Webb. But since the character is American, I’d probably select Lauren Holly or someone who can look good driving a Lamborghini.

    As for the story itself, I’d change NAN from an android into a Triad assassin that has her strength augmented by a device created by Ching.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    I'm thinking of Virginia Madsen for Connie Webb.
    article-2672450-1F3227A800000578-885_638x404.jpg

    She would have been about 30, but I think she could have worked.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,382
    Those were interesting casting choices.....I'm wondering how Bond 17 would really turned out to be honest..... But anyway let's move on from that topic.

    @thedove I will now post it here.....

    Don't worry guys, I've already PM this to him. 😊

    I'm wondering a rather unique and quite interesting What if.....

    If you've seen my "I've never thought of that" thread, then this thought occured on me.

    We all know that Caspar Fleming (Ian Fleming's son) killed himself by overdose, such a tragic story, but what if its changed? What if he hadn't killed himself? What if he lived? Would he continue his father's path in writing Bond novels? Would he be hands on in participating in the Bond filmmaking? Would still there be continuation authors or novels?

    What do you guys think would he do with Bond? Where would he likely to take Bond if he followed his father's path?

    Or would he would just take a different path from his father (in the sources stated, it's said that he had a thing for Egyptology), so would that be his line had he lived?

    What if Caspar Fleming (Ian Fleming's son) had lived past 1975?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    Hard to say.

    I think he would have had some part of his father’s legacy. He may have filled the gap between Colonel Sun and Licence Renewed. Or cut John Gardner’s run short. IFP seems to like authors from the 50s, so Caspar would have fit in there.

    For the films, I think that Cubby and Barbara would have let him write a (original) screenplay. Richard Maibaum would probably criticize him for it. Or he could have been the modern day Purvis and Wade. Always coming back to write, or produce.

    For sure, he’d write some forewords for books. I think this is one of the hardest What If’s we’ve had so far.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 539
    Difficult as he lived a rather short and tragic life. As far as I know he showed no interest in writing (much less fiction-writing) in life. Archaeology seems to have been his calling from a young age. I think it's more likely he'd have tried to distance himself as much as possible from his father's legacy. Not out of animosity, but to try and carve his own niche, whatever that may have been. We'll sadly never know.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited April 2023 Posts: 4,415
    It turn out Fleming died on 12th birthday of his son.

    Casper have been 71 now, Michael G Wilson is 81. Mabey Casper have been producer on the movies too. Mabey in 1976 or for example in 1979 after Moonraker when there whant bring Bond back to earth. Because in 1977 have turned 25 if haven't died on age of 23. The year of Spy Who Loved Me , in 1976 Harry Saltsman left as producer because of money problem's.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    It's hard to say exactly. But is it possible that he might have blamed Bond for his fathers passing away when he did, and the decline of his parents' marriage? It's far easier to blame Bond, than to blame his parents. He could have held on to the rights, to block any further books being written.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,382
    It's hard to say exactly. But is it possible that he might have blamed Bond for his fathers passing away when he did, and the decline of his parents' marriage? It's far easier to blame Bond, than to blame his parents. He could have held on to the rights, to block any further books being written.

    Possible, but then, as also stated in the sources, he, at somehow, was also influenced by the Bond character, he became interested in some different types of weapons, he's also at some point involving himself in the gun blackmarket, with several firearms found in his dorm, and guess, he referred to his toy gun as "Bond pistol".
    Even as a nine-year-old prep-school boy, he would strut around flourishing a toy gun that he called his “Bond pistol”.

    According to Ian Fleming’s biographer Andrew Lycett, Caspar began to take an unhealthy interest in guns while at Eton. In one letter, the boy wrote to his Uncle Hugo about a ‘flourishing black market’ in guns. One boy was offering to sell him a Luger.

    When Caspar was 16, a loaded revolver was found in his room at Eton. The police were called and it was discovered the boy owned five automatic pistols. The local juvenile court fined him £25.

    Visitors to the family home also noted he was obsessed with all manner of weapons. One, the author Patrick Leigh Fermor, wrote that Caspar had a Bond-like passion for ‘swordsticks, daggers, pistols, guns and even steel crossbows that sent glittering arrows whizzing at high speed across the croquet lawn at Sevenhampton and thudding into tree trunks’.


    So, it's also, at some angle impossible to see him blame Bond, when at some point, he's also influenced by it.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Suggested by @MaxCasino I think this is a topic worthy of discussion.

    It is 1962 and a small British film is a hit! Dr No bursts onto screens and causes a sensation. So much so that United Artists demands that Salzman and Broccoli film a follow up. They choose From Russia with Love in part because it has been revealed to be a favourite of President Kennedy. This means the United States market is aware of the book and it will add interest to the movie! The rest they say is history, FRWL is a bigger hit and begats GF!

    But what if, President Kennedy's list didn't include a Fleming thriller? I have heard some say that the editors of the magazine where the list was to be featured were not pleased with all the non-fiction books and asked that a fiction book be on the list. The aides of the President chose FRWL almost at random. What if the aide had chosen a non-Fleming book? Would this have had any impact on the film series? What book might have EON chose if not FRWL?

    Dear community members, what if President Kennedy's favourite books didn't include FRWL?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    I think they would have chosen another novel, perhaps. Maybe try to get the Americans early with Diamonds are Forever, perhaps?
  • Posts: 9,730
    thedove wrote: »
    Love those casting choices! Especially John Lone, he looks the part.
    Thanks! Lone would definitively have been the instinctive choice for Sir Henry Lee Ching (or Sir Henry Ferguson if we base ourselves on Davis and Osborne's draft). Same goes for Dolph Lundgren, the Rodin part seems to be written for him.

    Regarding the rest of the casting, I had in mind Richard E. Grant for the part of Otto Winkhart (described as disbarred lawyer in his early 40s) and James Hong for the one of Quen Low, the Chinese Intelligence Chief.

    Could be fun to also cast Dalton's other GoldenEye, based on Michael France's 1994 script (I say other since, according to Ruggiero, "GoldenEye" was already suggested as a title back in 1991 for Dalton's early potential third film).

    Excellent choices. Lone, Chen and Lundgren are my two default choices for Ching, Mi Wai and Chen. As for Winkhart and Quen Low, I always select Stellan Skarsgard and Anthony Wong. But here’s my definitive cast for Property of a Lady:

    Property of a Lady

    James Bond - Timothy Dalton
    Connie Webb - Elizabeth Hurley
    Sir Henry Lee Ching - John Lone
    Denholm Crisp - Ian Holm
    Mi Wai - Joan Chen
    Otto Winkhart - Stellan Skarsgard
    Rodin - Dolph Lundgren
    Quen Low - Anthony Wong
    Nigel Yupland - Hugh Laurie

    For those wondering why I’s gone with Ian Holm in the role of Crisp, I see Anthony Hopkins as Augustus Trevelyan in the Dalton version of GoldenEye.
    I could see these casting choices working well

    Honestly if they toned down the robot stuff I could see The Property of a lady going well for Bond if it was on fall of 91 it would of had little competition and honestly it would of been just a fantastic film

    On the other hand I always felt Dalton is the only multi film bond actor who had no duds in his tenure. Like I honestly can’t choose between the living daylights and license to kill in terms of my favorite….

    Where as Connery, Moore, Brosnan, and Craig all have one film that well yeah they can’t all be winners lol
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I think they would have chosen another novel, perhaps. Maybe try to get the Americans early with Diamonds are Forever, perhaps?

    I do wonder about that, what would they have chosen first. I would think DAF would be a solid choice given the limited settings required. It also has some colourful characters. Though would they choose GF next?

    I heard someone say that they were choosing the strongest titles and plots first and then moving on to the weakest. Does DAF plot hold up and would it be a good enough follow up to DN?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    I kind of wonder if they would have gone LALD. Double down on Jamaica.
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 154
    echo wrote: »
    I kind of wonder if they would have gone LALD. Double down on Jamaica.

    Or done Moonraker, for that matter, perhaps from a budgetary POV. One suspects it would depend on Dr No’s box-office take in this timeline. I imagine it and whatever came out as the second film would still have done well.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    I don't think Eon had the MR rights until 1967.
  • echo wrote: »
    I don't think Eon had the MR rights until 1967.

    Really? I thought they had the rights to all the books minus Casino Royale and Thunderball.
  • Posts: 2,887
    Photoplay's 1962 interview with Fleming has an interesting passage where the interviewer says:

    "We then talked about the series of films that are being planned and adapted from his books—the already made Dr. No, which will be followed by From Russia With Love, Diamonds Are Forever, Goldfinger, Live And Let Die, Moonraker, and possibly, if it can be adapted for the screen, The Spy That Loved Me."
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    New timestream.

    JFK is not assassinated in Texas, serves two successful terms as US president. Berlin wall comes down 1968. Vietnam Conflict ends shortly after, with an eventual (peaceful) reunification of north and south. The Korean peninsula also reunites. Cold War officially ends 1975. 1993 World Trade Center bombing triggers a short and targeted military reprisal by a Western coalition. Peace breaks out in the Middle East.


    JFK's book list instead cites Casino Royale. A mysterious benefactor bankrolls Broccoli and Saltzman to pay an incredible amount for the film rights to Casino Royale, and later Thunderball (in that second case, avoiding legal the wrangling entirely).

    The Eon film franchise begins with the release of Casino Royale. Then one film follows each year in book order--with a film for each short story title as well, adjusted order at times. Terence Young directs the early films, eventually transitioning to Peter Hunt. Sean Connery from the start is a full partner in the productions, and contributes significantly to the plots and the Bond character. The zenith of Bond Mania happens in 1968 with Goldfinger, Connery's final film playing Bond. Connery continues a role as producer.

    Connery stars in:
    • Casino Royale (1962)
    • Live and Let Die (1963)
    • Moonraker (1964)
    • Diamonds Are Forever (1965)
    • From Russia, with Love (1966)
    • Doctor No (1967)
    • Goldfinger (1968)


    Timothy Dalton is cast, and follows in Connery's footsteps to contribute in important ways. Films across the years approach but do not exceed the heights reached by Goldfinger. The satisfying and successful relationship making Bond films with the producers becomes Dalton's focus for many years.

    Timothy Dalton comes on board in 1969 and stays the duration for:
    • For Your Eyes Only (1969)
    • The Living Daylights (1970)
    • Octopussy (1971)
    • Risico (1972)
    • The Hildebrand Rarity (1973)
    • From a View to a Kill (1974)
    • Quantum of Solace (1975)
    • Thunderball (1976)
    • The Spy Who Loved Me (1977)
    • On Her Majesty’s Secret Service (1978)
    • You Only Live Twice (1979)
    • The Man with the Golden Gun (1980)
    • The Property of a Lady (1981)

    The franchise stops making Bond films in 1981, and Eon holds the rights to prevent tarnishing its gilded history.

    06aa68f6b22c9c5fc7d3c75921106b74.gif



  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    Eon acquired MR in 1969. From Wikipedia:

    "The actor John Payne attempted to take up the option on the film rights to the book in 1955, but nothing came of the attempt. The Rank Organisation also came to an agreement to make a film, but this likewise fell through.[82]

    The novel was not one of Fleming's stories acquired by Eon Productions in 1961; in 1969 the company acquired the rights and commissioned Gerry Anderson to produce and co-write a screenplay. Anderson and Tony Barwick prepared a 70-page treatment that was never filmed, but some elements were similar to the final screenplay of The Spy Who Loved Me."
  • Posts: 2,887
    But Wikipedia's entry on the film of MR cites Michael Feeney Callan's biography of Sean Connery and says Fleming's movie agents at MCA retrieved the screen rights to Moonraker from Rank in 1960. If so, then there's no reason why EON wouldn't have optioned the novel in 1961, along with the other available Bond books.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,415
    Pedro Armendáriz mabey died earlier. He played Kerim Bay and give his last months in the movie. See Inside From Russia With Love (Already avaible on SE DVD).
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,382
    Based on the history of the Bond Franchise, I'm leaning to the possible.....

    From Russia With Love would be probably directed by Guy Hamilton, because Terrence Young wasn't available at the time, it's 1964, the year of original Goldfinger.

    Fleming was also still alive in 1963, so the possible Bond Book to get filmed at the time is Live And Let Die, because it could be set in Jamaica just like Dr. No and not requiring of higher budget, it would also be the cheapest bond book to adapt.

    Goldfinger would not be available until 1969, because of some circumstances, the same for OHMSS not happening until 1977.


    Connery

    * Live And Let Die (1963) - directed by Terrence Young
    * From Russia With Love (1964) - directed by Guy Hamilton
    * Thunderball (1965) due to McClory's demand - directed by Terrence Young
    * You Only Live Twice (1967) due to Bond's popularity in Japan and Roald Dahl choosing the book - directed by Lewis Gilbert

    Connery left the role because of his clash against the Producers

    Lazenby

    * Goldfinger (1969) - directed by Peter Hunt, starring Lazenby
    * Diamonds Are Forever (1971) - directed by Peter Hunt, starring Lazenby
    * The Man With The Golden Gun (1974) - directed by Guy Hamilton, starring Lazenby
    * On Her Majesty's Secret Service (1977) - directed by Lewis Gilbert (screenplay by Christopher Wood), starring Lazenby, different from the book (they couldn't use Blofeld due to McClory's restrictions) and it's directed and wrote by a different director and writer (Gilbert and Wood), it's the year that TSWLM was released
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Great stuff! Amazing to think of the possibilities that exist based on one small decision!

    Lets look at a casting decision next, or should I say a character decision! The Spy Who Loved Me went through many writers and drafts. Blofeld was in, Blofeld was out. A new terrorist group was in and a new terrorist group was out. In one draft or idea, there was talk of having the Russian in the movie be Tatiana Romanova. That's right the leading lady from FRWL would have returned and been the love interest in this movie. Assuming they kept the angle of her playing a Russian agent, what do you think of this? The presumably they would have cast Daniela Bianchi to return in the role, though she would appear opposite another Bond actor. I suppose they could have recast the character.

    Given the history of the characters, would this have deepened the romance in the film? Would bringing back the character make the movie stronger?

    What say you Mi6 community. What if the character of Tatiana Romanova had returned for TSWLM?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited April 2023 Posts: 3,382
    Would have been so much better!

    My issue with Anya Amasova was given she's a highly trained KGB (Military) agent, she did nothing in the film, and there's some situations where she needs to be saved or rescued, not believable as a trained and capable agent, she's not capable, I don't buy her training in Siberia given that we don't see it.

    I don't buy her these sayings that she's the "first progressive Bond Girl", "she's Bond's equal", I just don't buy it, she's just another eye candy damsel in distress for me, given that she never did anything dumb, but she's passive, she's just Solitaire just turned a Military Agent (imagine that, and that's ultimately was Anya).

    She's such a disappointment and frustration, because she's been given this premise that she would be Bond's equal with highly trained skills from the Military Intelligence, yet she did nothing.

    Even her backstory about her killed boyfriend was underplayed and underutilized in the film, if not for me recognizing the guy that Bond killed in the PTS.

    With Tatiana, the relationship would have been so much deeper because their relationship in FRWL was so complex and unusual, and here, it would have been so much deeper.

    With Tatiana, those situations would have been so much believable, because she's not as highly trained as Amasova, if my memory serves, she's a ballerina or some ordinary civilian that just picked up by SPECTRE to seduce Bond, she's hired because of her beauty.

    We don't expect her to be some sort of Military Officer who's highly trained, she's just a pawn, so if she ended up in those damsel in distress situations, it would have been so convincing, more believable because again, she's not as highly trained as Anya, she's not a fighter, she's just an ordinary Russian Beauty that's hired for intelligence purposes.

    And that way she shot Rosa Klebb, it's a plus for me, and that makes her a bit better than Anya.

    With her coming back, I would accept it with Open arms, why it didn't happened?
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