And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,482
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Agreed. I also liked the incorporation of ATTITW as well as the OHMSS theme during the outside meeting with Bond and M. I found it fitting as it's Bond officially returning to Her Majesty's Service for his final mission. I've read and watched people who didn't like that incorporation and I cannot figure out why. I remember people gushing when that theme played over the Spectre trailer

    Well as might as well incorporate the other themes in the future films as well like Wine With Stacy from AVTAK being incorporated into a future film, or the Kiss Kiss Bang Bang theme from TB, or Underneath The Mango Tree from DN, they did it with OHMSS then why not for other themes?

    Or Nobody Does It Better as an instrumental for a future Bond film? Or Goldeneye?

    It's unfair to OHMSS that it's only its theme that's got stolen 😅.

    In fact, I want to hear Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang theme again from TB played into a future Bond film, it would be a great theme for a reboot because it tells Bond of who he is.

    Well it's because it's the best in the franchise. However, only true Bond fans would recognize the rehash. It was fitting given the circumstances. However, no music at all would be just as fine.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Agreed. I also liked the incorporation of ATTITW as well as the OHMSS theme during the outside meeting with Bond and M. I found it fitting as it's Bond officially returning to Her Majesty's Service for his final mission. I've read and watched people who didn't like that incorporation and I cannot figure out why. I remember people gushing when that theme played over the Spectre trailer

    Well as might as well incorporate the other themes in the future films as well like Wine With Stacy from AVTAK being incorporated into a future film, or the Kiss Kiss Bang Bang theme from TB, or Underneath The Mango Tree from DN, they did it with OHMSS then why not for other themes?

    Or Nobody Does It Better as an instrumental for a future Bond film? Or Goldeneye?

    It's unfair to OHMSS that it's only its theme that's got stolen 😅.

    In fact, I want to hear Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang theme again from TB played into a future Bond film, it would be a great theme for a reboot because it tells Bond of who he is, like back to basics mission.

    I guess you could say that Nobody Does It Better has appeared in more than one Bond film, along with Live and Let Die and Goldfinger :)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    Agreed. I also liked the incorporation of ATTITW as well as the OHMSS theme during the outside meeting with Bond and M. I found it fitting as it's Bond officially returning to Her Majesty's Service for his final mission. I've read and watched people who didn't like that incorporation and I cannot figure out why. I remember people gushing when that theme played over the Spectre trailer

    Absolutely with you and @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 ... In fact when I heard the leaked OST , I fist pumped when I heard the OHMSS callbacks and WHATTITW...

    And I have zero issues with the way Madeleine closes out the film, since the entirety of NTTD felt like an adult fairy tale to me; a fairly tale and dream-like execution where I was witness to the way one man lived, fought, loved and died.

    I guess it's an understatement to say I'm a big fan of NTTD.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,110
    Agreed. I also liked the incorporation of ATTITW as well as the OHMSS theme during the outside meeting with Bond and M. I found it fitting as it's Bond officially returning to Her Majesty's Service for his final mission. I've read and watched people who didn't like that incorporation and I cannot figure out why. I remember people gushing when that theme played over the Spectre trailer

    Exactly.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    Is it possible that it was novel in the Spectre trailer, and overdone in NTTD?

    Keep in mind, I'm one who enjoys the OHMSS themes everywhere they appear in SP and NTTD.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,449
    mtm wrote: »
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Agreed. I also liked the incorporation of ATTITW as well as the OHMSS theme during the outside meeting with Bond and M. I found it fitting as it's Bond officially returning to Her Majesty's Service for his final mission. I've read and watched people who didn't like that incorporation and I cannot figure out why. I remember people gushing when that theme played over the Spectre trailer

    Well as might as well incorporate the other themes in the future films as well like Wine With Stacy from AVTAK being incorporated into a future film, or the Kiss Kiss Bang Bang theme from TB, or Underneath The Mango Tree from DN, they did it with OHMSS then why not for other themes?

    Or Nobody Does It Better as an instrumental for a future Bond film? Or Goldeneye?

    It's unfair to OHMSS that it's only its theme that's got stolen 😅.

    In fact, I want to hear Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang theme again from TB played into a future Bond film, it would be a great theme for a reboot because it tells Bond of who he is, like back to basics mission.

    I guess you could say that Nobody Does It Better has appeared in more than one Bond film, along with Live and Let Die and Goldfinger :)

    Where Bond films did those themes appear?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    A guy whistles Goldfinger in OHMSS, not sure about the others.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    Is it possible that it was novel in the Spectre trailer, and overdone in NTTD?

    Keep in mind, I'm one who enjoys the OHMSS themes everywhere they appear in SP and NTTD.

    Plus it pops up in the QoS theme song.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,136
    Is it possible that it was novel in the Spectre trailer, and overdone in NTTD?

    Keep in mind, I'm one who enjoys the OHMSS themes everywhere they appear in SP and NTTD.

    I think there's a big difference between a theme appearing in a trailer and it appearing in a film. Context is key. What works for one won't work for the other.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    mtm wrote: »
    Is it possible that it was novel in the Spectre trailer, and overdone in NTTD?

    Keep in mind, I'm one who enjoys the OHMSS themes everywhere they appear in SP and NTTD.

    Plus it pops up in the QoS theme song.

    Does it? Crazy.
    Is it possible that it was novel in the Spectre trailer, and overdone in NTTD?

    Keep in mind, I'm one who enjoys the OHMSS themes everywhere they appear in SP and NTTD.

    I think there's a big difference between a theme appearing in a trailer and it appearing in a film. Context is key. What works for one won't work for the other.

    That's fair. Again I enjoyed it in both instances.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    mtm wrote: »
    Is it possible that it was novel in the Spectre trailer, and overdone in NTTD?

    Keep in mind, I'm one who enjoys the OHMSS themes everywhere they appear in SP and NTTD.

    Plus it pops up in the QoS theme song.

    Does it? Crazy.

    Yeah if you skip to 3.05 you can hear White play a brief phrase from it on the guitar.


  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    I guess Goldfinger is also referenced in Licence to Kill.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    Yes, good point.
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,904
    I think there's a big difference between a theme appearing in a trailer and it appearing in a film. Context is key. What works for one won't work for the other.

    Exactly. A trailer is an advertisement designed to pump up the audience, with music that we know might not necessarily be in the actual film. It's a different issue when the film itself straight up recycles music from one of the most beloved and respected films in the series and thereby piggybacks on the emotions and prestige that OHMSS garnered from us.

    And it's a disservice to NTTD itself. If Bond and Madeline's love affair is so great, doesn't it deserve it's own theme? Why go for second-hand tunes, especially when you've hired Hans Zimmer? Perhaps because NTTD so badly wants announce that it's Craig's OHMSS. Hence the self-conscious legacy-mongering, and the attempt to elevate a dull screen-writer's contrivance like Madeline to Tracy's level (though never her vitality). But "we have all the time in the world" is idiomatic and dramatically ironic in a way Madeline's stilted last line isn't. And after all the unmemorable dialogue in NTTD's climax the last line comes off as even more pretentious and pompous. Endings from earlier Bonds might have been generic, corny, or in bad taste, but they were never so self-important and self-congratulatory.
  • Posts: 5,904
    A guy whistles Goldfinger in OHMSS, not sure about the others.

    Q (and Bond) play "Nobody Does It Better" on the keypad before entering the room the Identicraft is in FYEO.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited August 2022 Posts: 7,527
    Oh nice. Watching FYEO tonight, I’ll listen for it.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,824
    I seem to be in a vast minority of people who didn't care either way about how "We Have All The Time in the World" was used. I thought the film laid the groundwork for its thematic inclusion, and for my money Bond and Madeleine had a far more tragic relationship than Bond and Tracy did, and not just because Bond died. It's the fact that he finally felt understood and accepted by a woman who knew his life and the kind of man he was due to his father and his world, and the fact that he left a child behind who barely knew him. Tracy is wonderful, as is their relationship, but in comparison it is a rather fleeting romance the movie literally speeds through at times. I enjoyed getting to know more about Madeleine across two films, which deepened the connection she and Bond had for me, which sold the ending.

    I can take the final lines of the film either way. I can see why people think it's too much, but even Bond's final lines in OHMSS aren't how humans talk either. It being overly sentimental and something that leaps off the screen to slap you is kind of the point. I just view Madeleine's lines as a sort of tribute to Bond's legacy, a legacy which was one of the cornerstone themes of the movie. Felt like it belonged far more than it didn't.

    + 1, with a vengeance.
  • Posts: 2,400
    I guess Goldfinger is also referenced in Licence to Kill.

    The big "wail" in The GoldenEye Overture is a wildly remixed sample of the opening brass of Goldfinger, too.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    I guess Goldfinger is also referenced in Licence to Kill.

    The big "wail" in The GoldenEye Overture is a wildly remixed sample of the opening brass of Goldfinger, too.

    I'm pretty sure the gunbarrel in GE samples the GF gunbarrel too, has that ever been said?
    Also I've always thought that the car chase track in Spectre actually samples the same fanfare very briefly, I think when Bond puts his car into a slide.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    The saga certainly folds over onto itself in several ways that are hard to keep track of!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2022 Posts: 15,580
    Certainly does! :)
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess Goldfinger is also referenced in Licence to Kill.

    The big "wail" in The GoldenEye Overture is a wildly remixed sample of the opening brass of Goldfinger, too.

    I'm pretty sure the gunbarrel in GE samples the GF gunbarrel too, has that ever been said?

    Aha! Yes it has, in this marvellous thread on here:
    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/18881/a-detailed-guide-to-the-music-of-the-gunbarrel-sequences

    And you can even hear a comparison here:


    I've never quite noticed before, but GE is the only gunbarrel where there's an extra orchestral stab when Bond actually fires. It's actually one of my favourite gunbarrel themes! :D It's got real mood
  • Posts: 5,904
    Oh nice. Watching FYEO tonight, I’ll listen for it.

    Why wait ?

  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,703
    DAD. The whole Moneypenny VR sex thingy also doesn't help. Embarrassing.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Interesting discussion about the recycling of musical cues/themes across the series. As someone that isn't as sharp an ear when it comes to spotting that stuff in music, it's interesting to note.

    I think part of why the OHMSS re-use is a problem but the countless reused cues from the past aren't is because right now NTTD is still very recent and will be divisive for a long time until people accept the decision to kill Bond. Because I do think most of the criticism coming against it, or why it always seems up for a smacking across various discussion topics, is because of that creative decision more than anything else. It taints the movie for some, and there's just no enjoying it beyond that, which I think is a shame.
    I still don't understand the sensitivity to Bond's death, but it's something I've accepted at this point. As a Craig fan, whose Bond fandom has been nourished and beyond spoiled since the day I watched CR on repeat every chance I could, I came away from the whole film, not just the ending, with immense satisfaction.

    None of us like to see Bond die, he's our hero, but I hope one day parts of the fanbase that have taken such a strong dislike to it one day become more open to what that film and the era as a whole was going for. I will continue to contend that so much of Craig's era, and NTTD in particular, was a way to bring a lot of Fleming's Bond back into the film version. Because Fleming wrote his character as a tragic figure, and Craig's Bond is certainly the most tragic incarnation we've had yet. He goes through the same cycle of love and loss, the struggle with where and how he belongs, the weight of the ugly jobs and his past that add up to make him a very troubled yet dutiful man. I've said many times that if Fleming didn't die so young, he could've also seen his way toward ending the original Bond's life on the page, and he certainly laid the groundwork for it. Bond has numerous close calls, and in FRWL he's just left laying there, and could've been killed off right then and there if Fleming wished. Fleming always played up the danger of the 00 job, and Bond himself never believed he'd survive till retirement age, yet still people don't like the idea of Bond meeting his end even though so much of the original source is dedicated to exploring that very possibility.

    I personally find how Craig went out rather fitting, not just because it feels in touch with something I could see Fleming doing, but because how he died sums up everything about the man that we love. We love Bond because he doesn't stop until the job is done, and never quits fighting until the day is saved. In the face of death itself, he stands tall and risks it all, instead of running or cowering in fear. He is always putting others before himself, as that is his duty, and his duty is his very guiding star. If Bond had to die, how NTTD killed him is exactly how I'd be willing to accept it, because he very bravely faces his fate and knows he has left the world in a far better place than it was before him, and that he fought till the very last second to do what he was obligated to do. The movie doesn't subvert expectations, or dishonor him...it gives him a death he deserves, that will never fail to leave me feeling inspired by the man and how he lived his life. A hero, till the very end.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2022 Posts: 3,449

    I think part of why the OHMSS re-use is a problem but the countless reused cues from the past aren't is because right now NTTD is still very recent and will be divisive for a long time until people accept the decision to kill Bond.

    Those cues from the past were subtle hints, this on on the other hand was obviously stolen as It's literally played in every scene of the film, like it's trying to be OHMSS because of the themes/scores playing in the background.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    It's a fair point. I guess it either annoys you or it doesn't.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    I wached FYEO last night and finally heard NDIB on the keypad. Loved it.

    Also, FYEO is legendary. Gets better every time I watch it; the only scene that drags a bit is the underwater stuff when they're retrieving the ATAC. Hard I suppose to make underwater stuff not look like a fight scene in slow motion, but they did well enough making it tense. My GF and I had a good laugh about the "Identitron" or whatever the hell, and Topol is an absolute legend as always.

    To keep it mildly on topic, they did a good job with the ending by making it funny but not groany-eye-rolly, IMO. I give FYEO three Michelin stars; make a trip specifically to see it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,012
    how he died sums up everything about the man that we love. We love Bond because he doesn't stop until the job is done, and never quits fighting until the day is saved. In the face of death itself, he stands tall and risks it all, instead of running or cowering in fear. He is always putting others before himself, as that is his duty, and his duty is his very guiding star. If Bond had to die, how NTTD killed him is exactly how I'd be willing to accept it, because he very bravely faces his fate and knows he has left the world in a far better place than it was before him, and that he fought till the very last second to do what he was obligated to do. The movie doesn't subvert expectations, or dishonor him...it gives him a death he deserves, that will never fail to leave me feeling inspired by the man and how he lived his life. A hero, till the very end.
    Couldn't - probably literally, couldn't - be said any better than that. Brilliantly put, OBrady.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    MI6HQ wrote: »

    I think part of why the OHMSS re-use is a problem but the countless reused cues from the past aren't is because right now NTTD is still very recent and will be divisive for a long time until people accept the decision to kill Bond.

    Those cues from the past were subtle hints, this on on the other hand was obviously stolen as It's literally played in every scene of the film, like it's trying to be OHMSS because of the themes/scores playing in the background.

    It wasn't "stolen." It's a licensed song created for the series and used in the series. The movie is using it in a new context, just as the original song was created out of inspiration from the original novel. An adaptation of an adaptation, if you will.

    Funny how we don't say the Bond films, particularly the early ones, stole from Fleming, if this is the perspective we're going to have with content made for the series and used in the series. It's like walking out your door dressed for work and having your neighbor tell you you're stealing the clothes from your own closet. What you own, you own, and you can't steal from yourself.

    In using the song, NTTD was underscoring one of the main focuses of the film, which is time, and making the most of it. Bond lives his life knowing every second could be his last, and for once in his life he wanted time to slow down so he could enjoy the newfound happiness he had with Madeleine. The sentiment of the film, that you should use every second and that Bond and Madeleine didn't have enough time, makes the song perfect for the movie as, just like it was used in OHMSS, there is a sad irony to its usage as a love theme for two characters that can never be together. It's a dream-like lie, because we don't actually have all the time in the world, but what we do have we need to make the most of. These aren't ideas OHMSS had alone, they are part of Bond's character, belief system and mythos. So I view it less as NTTD trying to be OHMSS, and simply referencing one of the core ideals of Bond's character and the inherent tragedy of his love life.

    I also like the new meaning the song has, which is less ironic and not at all something OHMSS did before. Madeleine and Mathilde now have "all the time in the world," in the grand scheme of things, because Bond gave his life to ensure they did. They can live their lives in peace, knowing that nobody will come for them, be it Blofeld, SPECTRE, or Safin, as Bond helped to wipe the slate clean and give them a peaceful life, albeit without him in it.
  • edited September 2022 Posts: 2,904
    I've said many times that if Fleming didn't die so young, he could've also seen his way toward ending the original Bond's life on the page, and he certainly laid the groundwork for it. Bond has numerous close calls, and in FRWL he's just left laying there, and could've been killed off right then and there if Fleming wished.

    Fleming intended TMWTGG to be the very last Bond novel, as he told his closest associates, and it had a far from tragic ending. Fleming even revised it to make clear that one woman would never be enough for Bond. And though Fleming had multiple opportunities to end Bond over the years, he didn't. The cliffhanger ending of FRWL was not in the original typescript, and when readers sent in concerned letters Fleming quickly reassured them that Bond was recovering. There's also the certainty that if Fleming did write a proper death scene for Bond, it certainly would have been different from what 21st century filmmakers came up with. Fleming's tragic endings tended to have more a sting. My objection to NTTD's climax was less that Bond was killed than with how sentimental and bland his death was.
    In using the song, NTTD was underscoring one of the main focuses of the film, which is time, and making the most of it.

    Couldn't the film have done that by coming up with a love song of its own instead of recycling an old one? I don't see why we should give the filmmakers a pass for being lazy and cynical. They know that the emotions and associations we had with OHMSS are tied up with that song, the most emotionally charged one in any Bond film, and by recycling it they're tying those feelings and associations to NTTD, while proclaiming their ambition to make this Craig's OHMSS. There's something offensive in how NTTD trades on the cachet of the older classic to make it itself look (and sound) good, rather than standing on its own. No one minds when the Bond films fleetingly quote or reference old songs within new ones. But ripping an entire song from a film it's inextricably tied to and throwing it into another film to satisfy the latter's pretensions? Unacceptable, here and in any future Bond film.
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