Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    Could you make Bond a bit more deep cover? So he lives this playboy lifestyle the whole time as his cover of being a top agent- he doesn't live his own life in his Chelsea flat and go into the office, but instead he has very undercover briefings from M or his agents as he cruises around top hotels on the continent etc. so that his high profile targets can never spot him. Give him a bit of a different flavour and make a bit more sense of his Aston Martins and champagne lifestyle.

    Agree very much. There is a way to make things more believable and this is one of them. You have made many good suggestions throughout the thread that I hope reach the studio somehow.

    Ah thanks, Mr Decree!
  • Posts: 1,693
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    “Art house?” I get the soap opera criticism, but what do you mean by art house? None of these feel anything like A24 productions.

    He means the hollow brooding scenes in Skyfall. QoS was a good example of arthouse infleunces done right.

    Fair enough. I still like the movies but some things either need to change or be dropped entirely. Give me human drama sure, but don’t overdo it like the DC films tended to do. It was very hard to sympathize with M’s death when a lot of the problems happened because of her. In both timelines.
    mtm wrote: »
    Could you make Bond a bit more deep cover? So he lives this playboy lifestyle the whole time as his cover of being a top agent- he doesn't live his own life in his Chelsea flat and go into the office, but instead he has very undercover briefings from M or his agents as he cruises around top hotels on the continent etc. so that his high profile targets can never spot him. Give him a bit of a different flavour and make a bit more sense of his Aston Martins and champagne lifestyle.

    Agree very much. There is a way to make things more believable and this is one of them. You have made many good suggestions throughout the thread that I hope reach the studio somehow.

    I agree with both of you. I still would love to see May get a chance to shine one day. And Felix Leiter get more involved in the action.

    Yes, for a more of an action oriented Felix. It would be fun to see Felix portrayed a bit more like in NSNA.
  • Posts: 727
    I noticed a distinct lack of no time to die reaction videos on YouTube. Which means there is a definite deficit In Zoomer interest in the franchise.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I think the concept of a government backed agent sent to legally kill people is becoming a much harder sell for younger generations to embrace.
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,600
    I noticed a distinct lack of no time to die reaction videos on YouTube. Which means there is a definite deficit In Zoomer interest in the franchise.

    When NTTD’s trailers dropped in 2020-2021, I don’t remember the news trending on US twitter either.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 686
    I think the concept of a government backed agent sent to legally kill people is becoming a much harder sell for younger generations to embrace.

    I think in the films he's usually sent to investigate, though obviously does kill if he has to. I really don't think today's audience worries to much about that, as long as they want to see whoever it is dead themselves.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    He’s still an employee of the government. If you notice, most heroes in modern film are portrayed as rogues. Even Captain America became a fugitive in one of his movies.

    I think this is why Craig Bond was the most roguish. EON recognizes there’s far less trust in government, so they have Bond defy his employers because he’s showing them up on how wrong they are.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 2,757
    To be fair, I suspect a new, younger actor will help a bit at bringing in younger audiences. Was it a similar situation going into the Dalton era after the later Moore films? Anyway, I do think a new actor will help a bit.

    Apart from that, it's understandable that NTTD wasn't as popular with younger viewers. Forget that the franchise has been variable in terms of quality (SF was the last time I saw people my age really get excited for Bond and went back multiple times to see it in the cinemas) but it's about an older Bond and has a somewhat heavier tone than what we're used to with the cinematic Bond. Ironically the elements of the film one can say were designed to feel 'modern' make it a bit of a downer - ie. Bond's death, him having a child etc. People I went to see it with even joked about it - "oh, great, a new Bond film! The last two years have been really tough with Covid. Time to sit back in a cinema again and watch a nice Bond film to forget my troubles with..." Again, the end it a bit of a downer in that sense... as I've also said before half of the people that watch the film don't even get emotionally invested in the death anyway. You're less likely to see it again in that scenario.

    I'm not saying that the Bond films morph into Mission Impossible or try to pander to younger viewers with 'Instagram luxury' aesthetics or whatever. I just think there needs to be fresh ideas that reinvigorate the franchise. I've said it before but I think younger viewers are more aware of how flawed our onscreen heroes can be. Reimagining Bond as the anti-hero of Fleming's novels, leaning into things like how conflicted he is over killing, his cynicism, his tendency to fall in love with 'damaged' women etc. might help. The Bond girls need to be actual characters too - no Bond's equal, sacrificial lambs or flat characters. They need to have agency in the plot. I honestly think female viewers will gravitate more towards femme fatals along the lines of the literary Tiffany Case or a reimagined Pussy Galore than a Jinx or Nomi.

    That aside, there needs to be more fun. An anti-hero Bond or a femme fatale Bond girl can still have that sense of eroticism/chemistry between them (sex isn't necessarily the same thing) and a well written, grounded Bond film can still be escapist. Why not have elements of the 'traditional Bond film', especially after the experimentation of the Craig era, with Bond getting his mission, investigating, getting into fights/chases, having gadgets and cars (the film doesn't necessarily have to have Q). Update them and make them feel fresh again. Again, the darker moments can always be there, and the plot doesn't have to be about nanobots or world domination (hell, I'd like a more grounded plot in general, just with these elements). And for God's sake, end on a high note. I don't want to see people shuffling uncomfortably out of the cinema again while 'We Have All the Time In The World' echoes hauntingly through the theatre. Even SF ended with the Bond theme blaring and felt upbeat and cathartic.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    007HallY wrote: »
    I'm not saying that the Bond films morph into Mission Impossible or try to pander to younger viewers with 'Instagram luxury' aesthetics or whatever.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with that though: the original 60s films pandered to people who couldn't afford to travel to exotic places like Japan or the Bahamas.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I just think there needs to be fresh ideas that reinvigorate the franchise. I've said it before but I think younger viewers are more aware of how flawed our onscreen heroes can be. Reimagining Bond as the anti-hero of Fleming's novels, leaning into things like how conflicted he is over killing, his cynicism, his tendency to fall in love with 'damaged' women etc. might help. The Bond girls need to be actual characters too - no Bond's equal, sacrificial lambs or flat characters. They need to have agency in the plot.

    Yeah I think there's no excuse with the female characters now. I look at Rebecca Ferguson in the MI films and think that Bond still has catching up to do. I don't see any reason why a female character in a Bond film can't be aspirational like Bond is.
    007HallY wrote: »
    That aside, there needs to be more fun. An anti-hero Bond or a femme fatale Bond girl can still have that sense of eroticism/chemistry between them (sex isn't necessarily the same thing) and a well written, grounded Bond film can still be escapist. Why not have elements of the 'traditional Bond film', especially after the experimentation of the Craig era, with Bond getting his mission, investigating, getting into fights/chases, having gadgets and cars (the film doesn't necessarily have to have Q). Update them and make them feel fresh again. Again, the darker moments can always be there, and the plot doesn't have to be about nanobots or world domination (hell, I'd like a more grounded plot in general, just with these elements). And for God's sake, end on a high note. I don't want to see people shuffling uncomfortably out of the cinema again while 'We Have All the Time In The World' echoes hauntingly through the theatre. Even SF ended with the Bond theme blaring and felt upbeat and cathartic.

    Absolutely to the fun element: that's essential. And the ending too.
    Both of those aspects were something that I felt Mendes understood but Fukunaga didn't.

    Speaking of that on the ending, I wonder if they couldn't have taken some inspiration from... One Foot In The Grave :D If you haven't seen it it's a classic British sitcom about a grumpy old man, and in the very last episode he's knocked down and killed in a traffic accident. Which was very sad, but all through the episode he had mentioned various offscreen scrapes he'd been having, and then at the close of the episode after he'd died, we got a flashback musical montage showing him having all of these slapstick vignettes; and I sort of wonder if you couldn't have done that with NTTD. Have a full on version of the Bond theme accompanying a montage of Bond in action in scenes we hadn't seen until then (representing the stories Madeline was telling Mathilde perhaps), and ending on a bit more of a 'Bond was great' celebratory high.
  • MalloryMallory Do mosquitoes have friends?
    edited May 2022 Posts: 2,036
    Multiverse films are the in thing at the moment - see MCU, DC and films like Everything Everywhere.

    EoN love a good film bandwagon to jump on (Craig era started as Bourne and ended MCU) so I say Multiverse Bond 26 and bring em all back, actors (digitally and alive) as well as the villains.

    Connery Bond vs Alec Trevelyan
    Lazenby Bond vs Franz Sanchez
    Craig Bond vs Goldfinger

    Etc..

    Massive success guarenteed 🤓🤓😂😂

    $3bn global box office.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,382
    Mallory wrote: »
    Multiverse films are the in thing at the moment - see MCU, DC and films like Everything Everywhere.

    EoN love a good film bandwagon to jump on (Craig era started as Bourne and ended MCU) so I say Multiverse Bond 26 and bring em all back, actors (digitally and alive) as well as the villains.

    Connery Bond vs Alec Trevelyan
    Lazenby Bond vs Franz Sanchez
    Craig Bond vs Goldfinger

    Etc..

    Massive success guarenteed 🤓🤓😂😂

    $3bn global box office.

    Typical like 007 Legends where there's Craig fighting those classic villains.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 2,757
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I'm not saying that the Bond films morph into Mission Impossible or try to pander to younger viewers with 'Instagram luxury' aesthetics or whatever.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with that though: the original 60s films pandered to people who couldn't afford to travel to exotic places like Japan or the Bahamas.

    I'd say that the strength of many of the 60s Bond films (and even the 70s/80s ones too) are that they're able to evoke a 'sense' of their locations through the cinematography and way they're shot. Y'know, the old cliche of 'the location is a character in this film'. Obviously nowadays people can travel more freely so seeing Japan etc doesn't quite have the same impact but it does allow the filmmakers to be more creative in this sense. They managed to do it with Cuba and Matera in NTTD. Anyway, I think that element is more important than making a location look 'cool' necessarily.
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I just think there needs to be fresh ideas that reinvigorate the franchise. I've said it before but I think younger viewers are more aware of how flawed our onscreen heroes can be. Reimagining Bond as the anti-hero of Fleming's novels, leaning into things like how conflicted he is over killing, his cynicism, his tendency to fall in love with 'damaged' women etc. might help. The Bond girls need to be actual characters too - no Bond's equal, sacrificial lambs or flat characters. They need to have agency in the plot.

    Yeah I think there's no excuse with the female characters now. I look at Rebecca Ferguson in the MI films and think that Bond still has catching up to do. I don't see any reason why a female character in a Bond film can't be aspirational like Bond is.

    Like I said, I want to see them really go all in with that femme fatale approach to a Bond girl someday more akin to some of the novels. Often the characters have very dark pasts (a good few seem to have been raped, which would be gusty to see explored in a Bond film, provided its handled well) and the likes of Tiffany Case and Pussy Galore are rather morally ambiguous. They do have agency in the story though and even end up saving Bond in instances. Even a character along the lines of Honey Rider from the DN novel would be cool - this mysterious woman trying to 'erase' this reminder of her past (the broken nose) and create a new life for herself. Things would have to be adapted, sure - Bond turning lesbians straight is laughable at best nowadays, questionable and dark at worst, and I don't think it's believable that he'd be able to throw out the money needed for Honey's surgery, but these are at least interesting templates.
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    That aside, there needs to be more fun. An anti-hero Bond or a femme fatale Bond girl can still have that sense of eroticism/chemistry between them (sex isn't necessarily the same thing) and a well written, grounded Bond film can still be escapist. Why not have elements of the 'traditional Bond film', especially after the experimentation of the Craig era, with Bond getting his mission, investigating, getting into fights/chases, having gadgets and cars (the film doesn't necessarily have to have Q). Update them and make them feel fresh again. Again, the darker moments can always be there, and the plot doesn't have to be about nanobots or world domination (hell, I'd like a more grounded plot in general, just with these elements). And for God's sake, end on a high note. I don't want to see people shuffling uncomfortably out of the cinema again while 'We Have All the Time In The World' echoes hauntingly through the theatre. Even SF ended with the Bond theme blaring and felt upbeat and cathartic.

    Absolutely to the fun element: that's essential. And the ending too.
    Both of those aspects were something that I felt Mendes understood but Fukunaga didn't.

    Speaking of that on the ending, I wonder if they couldn't have taken some inspiration from... One Foot In The Grave :D If you haven't seen it it's a classic British sitcom about a grumpy old man, and in the very last episode he's knocked down and killed in a traffic accident. Which was very sad, but all through the episode he had mentioned various offscreen scrapes he'd been having, and then at the close of the episode after he'd died, we got a flashback musical montage showing him having all of these slapstick vignettes; and I sort of wonder if you couldn't have done that with NTTD. Have a full on version of the Bond theme accompanying a montage of Bond in action in scenes we hadn't seen until then (representing the stories Madeline was telling Mathilde perhaps), and ending on a bit more of a 'Bond was great' celebratory high.

    I have the opposite problem with NTTD's ending than I do with OHMSS. In the latter film the fact that the Bond theme blares over the shattered Aston Martin window takes me out of the moment/spoils the impact of Tracy's death. I think having WHATTITW play over this would have been better. In NTTD I wish they'd have ended with the Bond theme. Despite Bond's death, he essentially lives on through the stories Madeline tells to Mathilde. He's a hero now, immortalised. In a weird way it's optimistic. Why not have the Bond theme play to really hit this idea home? Again, SF is a rather cynical film at its heart and the fact that Bond goes back to the Service seems like a questionable ending on paper, but the Bond theme really sells it and gives us that catharsis after the emotional impact of M's death etc. Even something that simple would have helped.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Yes, although I'm liking the idea of a montage of Bond doing lots of Bondy things; maybe even Craig doing some of the more famous Bond moments, like skiing off a mountain with a parachute etc.! (Maybe not :) )- really fetishise him like the opening titles of CR did, ending with him staring right down the camera. It'd still be sad because we know he's dead, but also sort of life-affirming because you remember how much you enjoyed watching him and how cool he was.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    I actually think they should do something like that with the new Bond. Have the PTS be the most cliché-laden mini-Bond film you can do in like 10 minutes (Bond, James Bond; Shaken not stirred; DB5; Union Jack parachute; sex with a Bond girl 4 minutes after they met; Neru jacket and white cat; all of it). End it with some almost fourth wall-breaking moment in the vein of this:
    which then pivots into the credits. After credits we pick up similar to the beginning of the Goldfinger novel with Bond kind of disgustedly looking back at the mission he just completed and then the film is a straight thriller without any of the bells and whistles.
    That would probably be panned as hell, but it would be really fun.
    Alternatively, do the trailer and all marketing in that style and then have the film be a word-for-word adaptation of The Spy Who Loved Me.

    [Maybe I should lie down a bit.]
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 2,757
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, although I'm liking the idea of a montage of Bond doing lots of Bondy things; maybe even Craig doing some of the more famous Bond moments, like skiing off a mountain with a parachute etc.! (Maybe not :) )- really fetishise him like the opening titles of CR did, ending with him staring right down the camera. It'd still be sad because we know he's dead, but also sort of life-affirming because you remember how much you enjoyed watching him and how cool he was.

    I get why they didn't go down that route. I mean, the budget was already about £300 Million so I think filming extra footage specifically for a montage would have been just a bit too much. As much as I'm conflicted about the ending I do like the fact that Madeline starts telling Mathilde the story of 'James Bond'. Reminds me of Fleming's odd passage in Bond's YOLT obituary about these novels being written about him, but better handled. Essentially Bond is now mythicised in this very poignant way. I think the Bond theme and an earlier 'James Bond will return...' on the screen immediately afterwards would have been fine. The ending we got was just a bit too sombre, and there are currently a small portion of people who are under the impression that the Bond series will no longer continue because Bond is now dead.

    @ImpertinentGoon I kind of want to see a version of that. Have a long action scene during the PTS with someone unseen doing all the 'Bondian' stuff. It gets to the end and the character is killed. It's revealed not to be Bond.

    After that we get a brief scene from M and it's revealed, I dunno, 006 has been killed or something. We then get the GF novel scene with our new Bond and him drinking afterwards/looking a bit uneasy about what he's just done.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited May 2022 Posts: 3,382
    I'm just going to ask, something's not clear to me. (I want to clarify something), just confused.
    How would they do the montage?
    They would get Craig back to film those scenes (like skiing off a mountain with a parachute?)
    Or we can get it from those deleted scenes?
    Having those deleted scenes in all of his movies to be a montage would be fine with me though.
    Those deleted scenes was something that we hadn't seen before, yes it would work.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 12,837
    He’s still an employee of the government. If you notice, most heroes in modern film are portrayed as rogues. Even Captain America became a fugitive in one of his movies.

    I think this is why Craig Bond was the most roguish. EON recognizes there’s far less trust in government, so they have Bond defy his employers because he’s showing them up on how wrong they are.

    Yeah, I’d expect the next Bond to be similar to Craig in that way. If they wanted to be really daring (well, daring in the sense it’d cause arguments on here, nobody else would care), maybe they could contextualise that aspect a bit more by hinting at an ever so slightly Harry Palmer esque backstory? Keep it shrouded in mystery, Bond should always be an enigma. But maybe something happened towards the end of his military career, that led to his distrust in the establishment, and his (forced) employment as a 00. I think that makes more sense than Craig Bond’s backstory, that bio they released for CR made for funny reading. He’s simultaneously the best soldier ever with an insanely exceptional military career, and an unconventional maverick with a consistent lack of respect for authority and standard protocol in every service he served in. I think him having that attitude from day one makes it seem a bit silly that he managed to get that far.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    He’s still an employee of the government. If you notice, most heroes in modern film are portrayed as rogues. Even Captain America became a fugitive in one of his movies.

    I think this is why Craig Bond was the most roguish. EON recognizes there’s far less trust in government, so they have Bond defy his employers because he’s showing them up on how wrong they are.

    Yeah, I’d expect the next Bond to be similar to Craig in that way. If they wanted to be really daring (well, daring in the sense it’d cause arguments on here, nobody else would care), maybe they could contextualise that aspect a bit more by hinting at an ever so slightly Harry Palmer esque backstory? Keep it shrouded in mystery, Bond should always be an enigma. But maybe something happened towards the end of his military career, that led to his distrust in the establishment, and his (forced) employment as a 00. I think that makes more sense than Craig Bond’s backstory, that bio they released for CR made for funny reading. He’s simultaneously the best soldier ever with an insanely exceptional military career, and an unconventional maverick with a consistent lack of respect for authority and standard protocol in every service he served in. I think him having that attitude from day one makes it seem a bit silly that he managed to get that far.

    Yeah I like that, that's a very nice idea. There's a mystery in his service past; nothing to do with his parents or who killed them or anything like that- there's something which Bond isn't saying.
  • Posts: 1,215
    In the next iteration, I'd like to see M be a bit of a rogue as well with a bit of a Machiavellian streak, being willing to get the job done at any cost even if that means some murky ethics around checks and balances and skirting the bureaucracy. Instead of Bond and M butting heads over the maverick behaviour, they're more or less in it together and the 00 section allows M to operate outside the purview of the establishment. Instead of M being one pushing them to colour within the lines, I think it makes sense for Tanner to be that person.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 784
    Indeed. Would be interesting to see M deceive Bond, and have loyalties come into question.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,053
    Indeed. Would be interesting to see M deceive Bond, and have loyalties come into question.

    With all due respect. It was kind of done in Skyfall. I’d like to see EON do a cross between M of the classic era and the modern day M. Have M give Bond a mission (that’s not personal for either of them) and show a bit of friendship. Respect, above all. It’s shouldn’t be too much to ask.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I noticed a distinct lack of no time to die reaction videos on YouTube. Which means there is a definite deficit In Zoomer interest in the franchise.

    They only care about comic book movies.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,374
    Reaction videos, one of the banes of the Internet for me. I'll never understand the intrigue in watching a complete stranger react to something I already saw. The trailer reaction videos are even more bizarre. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 784
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Indeed. Would be interesting to see M deceive Bond, and have loyalties come into question.

    With all due respect. It was kind of done in Skyfall. I’d like to see EON do a cross between M of the classic era and the modern day M. Have M give Bond a mission (that’s not personal for either of them) and show a bit of friendship. Respect, above all. It’s shouldn’t be too much to ask.

    Skyfall was pure shite and M making a calculated mistake as a plot gimmick to start the film is not what I am talking about.

    Neither is Mallory not discontinuing biological weapons research as a plot gimmick to start NTTD.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,374
    I don't think the opening of SF was M deceiving Bond so much as it was incompetence. Offering a rookie agent to take an almost impossible shot instead of trusting Bond in a one-on-one fight? Bizarre.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,053
    matt_u wrote: »
    I noticed a distinct lack of no time to die reaction videos on YouTube. Which means there is a definite deficit In Zoomer interest in the franchise.

    They only care about comic book movies.

    Correction mostly MCU movies.
  • Posts: 6,682
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @mattjoes, now there's a name I haven't heard in a very long time. I remember when we were certain he'd be up to direct next.

    Yeah, I wonder if he could be a possibility once again.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    This is still the best trailer reaction video. I highly recommend anyone watches it, including those that hate reaction videos.

  • Posts: 1,693
    Back to the original recent question.................... how do you get Zoomers hooked? So far I have not seen the solution here yet. I'm sure Eon and Amazon are considering this as well.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    That depends. We know younger audiences didn’t turn up for NTTD in the US. Was that the same for all other countries?
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