NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited October 2021 Posts: 523
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Yes, but it was easy back then because we never had a true arc for James Bond. We never addressed his age, his relationships, or even his origins as a 00, and all those things have been addressed in the Craig-era, so it's not the same. And personally, I don't think anything is undermined, if Brosnan's Bond had died at the end of Die Another Day, it would've made no difference. Casino Royale would've been the same; a reboot. Exactly what Bond 26 will do and would always have done for the reasons I've said.

    The reason why they didn't kill off any previous Bonds was because they knew it would undermine the entire series regardless of continuity issues. The series hinged on Bond's aura of immortality. Like someone else said here, it was basically an unwritten rule of the franchise. With this movie they just decided to destroy that, like a controlled demolition.
    As for "people trying to justify it", I'd say that's completely unfair on the film and on the fans that enjoy it for what it was and what it was doing. For many of us, it makes perfect sense in the arc we've seen throughout Craig's era. Just because there are some that don't like it, that in no way undermines the opinion of those who did.

    I'm seeing a lot of comments like, "I'm still trying to process this but maybe it'll grow on me," "I hated the ending but maybe they had to," etc. It just seems like people are forcing themselves to accept it.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 523
    TripAces wrote: »
    Well, Blofeld died in FYEO. So why/how did he come back?

    He wasn't Blofeld, he was Franz Oberhauser, Bond's (*cringe*) neurotic adoptive brother who assumed the name Blofeld. I took it as more of a nod to Blofeld than an actual portrayal of him, and it's just one of the many reasons why SF and SP were so incoherent.

  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    edited October 2021 Posts: 418
    I expect such remarks to be posted in droves now that the film is released in the US. It will be The Last Jedi to the power of 10.
  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,619
    bondywondy wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondywondy wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @bondywondy, I know I and others have explained it several times before (not that it needs explaining) but why's it so hard to understand that Craig's self-contained era ends with Bond's death and the next era will be fresh, starting anew, perhaps not as a budding, rookie 007 but rather an experienced 007 in the midst of his tenure? Bond clearly died, that missile smacked down right in front of him. We'd be getting into some truly ludicrous territory if he somehow survived that (and there's no reason to even come up with an explanation for his survival, because this is the end of this Bond's tale - Craig isn't returning for any more films.) There needn't be any confusion on the matter. It sounds like you really don't want to accept his death, which is fine, but you're trying to box in others and make some "factual" reasonings as to why he survived that clearly aren't there or even remotely hinted at.

    Hmm.... time will tell if my theory is right. Until we get official confirmation from Eon that Bond 26 is a reboot, my theory is still possible. 😉

    You seriously believe the next era will be a continuation of Craig's arc, without Craig, where his clearly obvious death is explained away and some new actor is now looking to cure himself of the nanobots and return to Madeleine and Mathilde? I'd bet all the money I'll ever make that won't happen but I'll leave you to your optimism and high hopes. Just don't be let down when a few years pass and it clearly doesn't come to fruition, as it's incredibly, almost impossibly unlikely.

    I've got three or more years to get prepared for the disappointment. I still maintain the marketing potential of 'Is Bond really dead?'... and we find out he's still alive.. is worth consideration. Eon would be a bit silly to dismiss this opportunity? I dunno, just a thought.

    I wish I had a James Bond emoji. 😊

    There would be no reason to promote this movie as “the epic conclusion” if they’re just going to continue this storyline with an entirely different actor as Bond.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns The Bright Side of the Road.
    Posts: 19,462
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I finally got to see it at 4 pm yesterday in a near empty theater, needed to collect my thoughts after that emotional ending and see how I felt this morning. First, here's a photo of my daughter and I, taken outside the theater an hour or so before I went in. She's spent the last several weeks watching the other 24 installments right alongside me, so I thought it fitting to get a picture with her before the only one she's yet to see. All in due time, though, I'll change that once the 4K is out!

    2f8r1v4b44pz.jpeg


    I'm going to need to see this one a few more times at least before I'm able to rank it but it was even better than I suspected it might be.

    I'm really shocked by how the aspects I was most worried about (Bond and Madeleine's relationship, the MI6 crew, Mathilde, Bond dying) ended up being some of my favorite moments. I didn't sense an iota of chemistry between Bond and Madeleine in SP but I absolutely bought their journey in NTTD - settling in off the grid, the atmosphere between the two when things go south and there's a sense of betrayal, finding one another five years on, emotions still running high. I can't believe I walked away feeling for Madeleine so much and enjoying her character so much.

    Also, this is one of the most non-Bondian Bond films I've ever seen. I need more viewings of it but this may very well be Craig's best performance; he felt so human, so real, like James Bond was no longer a character but an actual ex-agent living off the grid who is called back into action. The way the conversations flow, the fresh and natural nature of the quips, it didn't feel at all choreographed, didn't feel like dialogue written down on a page (sans a few moments, of course). All the one liners related to the bionic eye were great and it seems Craig's sarcasm and sense of humor finally hit its full potential. He had me cheering, laughing and crying throughout this. I'd say if there's ever a Bond performance worthy of awards, it'd be this one. I just can't believe how great his take was after SP.

    The MI6 crew was still used a bit too much for my tastes, but holy hell, M was solid, in a similar situation to M in SF, Moneypenny wasn't bad or cringe and this is one of my favorite Q performances in ages (his final moments with Bond? Incredible).

    Mathilde was so beautiful and it was instantly easy to connect with her story and feel for her when she's scared, when she loses Dou Dou, when she smiles at the start of a story about James Bond. I can't believe how well it was executed. I became a father in January to my beautiful daughter and I'm sure that recent life experience made me all the more emotional.

    And Bond dying? I was prepped and ready for it but I think I cried like a baby nonstop for the last five or so minutes before the credits rolled. It was heroic in a personal sense, effective and very emotionally charged. I get why they did it and I gotta say, it doesn't bother me at all, just made the stakes and the finale all the more special to me.

    There are bits that didn't work for me, sure. Valdo had one or two OK moments but for the most part, he was slimy, embarrassing and featured way too often. He's like a Boris Grishenko-lite but missed the mark so often (that CGI shot of him falling down the elevator shaft, screaming was so bad) and didn't bring anything to the table for me. Maybe that'll be better on subsequent viewings, though, as the theater I was in had bizarre sound issues - sometimes the dialogue felt muted, other times the score was too loud to hear what else was going on. I could still piece together what was going on but I would've loved some subtitles, damn.

    I also think from the PTS to Cuba is incredible and Norway to the finale is excellent, but I could've done with something in the middle of the film, where it dragged just a hair and lost some momentum.

    Also, I quite dug Safin, but much like others, his objective is quite muddled at times (I'll admit, I got lost at times on what was done by SPECTRE's hand, what was the result of Safin, Primo's motivations etc.) and that'll likely be helped with more viewings, some subtitles and letting things breathe more so I can check out more details and let the story click even more. His appearances are sort of akin to Dr. No but he doesn't get the same sort of reveal that Julius does - a quick monologue with Bond before disappearing, the rest of his moments on the island are slightly sinister but not terribly threatening or impactful. I love Malek and wish he had some more to work with here (and I do wish they had a proper tussle at the end of the film like I was expecting, but seeing Bond finally shoot and kill a target after so many years, on top of Safin's glee over Bond never, ever being able to interact with Madeleine and Mathilde again makes up for things considerably).

    The action here is consistently solid, easily my second favorite of the series but nothing will beat QoS' frenetic energy for me. I will say, though, that most of these moments are way too short and deserved just a few minutes longer. In hindsight, it seems super easy to piece together the entire PTS in Matera simply because of how short it is - the foot race back to Madeleine and the car chase were brilliant, but definitely needed more time. I really, really like the shot of Bond dropping the mines, taking out the car, drifting and spinning 360 degrees while firing at the other pursuing vehicle and then moving on. Bond weighing his options and the supposed betrayal while all the goons unload on the DB5, Madeleine pleading with him to do something, only for him to say "OK." and destroy everything in sight and escape was great.

    The title sequence had some surprisingly great moments and motifs in it, but damn, they really need to go with some fresh blood next time. It feels like Kleinman keeps trying to come up with something akin to the M:I series that shows off the major events of the film instead of working a couple of thematic elements, some guns and girls in and leaving it at that. I don't need any more Bond silhouettes enveloped in mystery, I don't need his relationship on display, none of it. I can't recall much of it now (maybe that says something) but I felt it stood out much more positively for me than his last two works. Not a fan of that title song at all, though, but it's better than Sam Smith's mewling "work."

    Jamaica is one of the highlights. Hell, I wish the film had spent at least half its runtime here, so I could've enjoyed more of the culture and beautiful nightlife it had to offer. The return of Felix is great - perhaps their camaraderie and close "buddy-ness" doesn't work as much since the man's been sidelined since 2008 and their relationship never grew, but I'll chalk that up to off-screen happenings, because their connection here is palpable and I loved their conversation in the bar together. His death hit me really hard - I think in a film where you're killing off Bond and Blofeld, you don't have to kill so many iconic characters by taking out Leiter too - but it is a good motivator for Bond wanting to destroy Ash later on. Ash, before I forget, was great, playing the goofy, fake-nervous State Department representative who clearly has ulterior motives (seriously, from the second he was on screen, did anybody think he was going to remain a good guy? I do think the series needs to step away from these obvious double agents and friends-turned-enemies, it's a bit repetitive by this point). The way he giggles when Valdo kicks him the gun, the way he nervously stumbles over his words when first meeting Bond. Very solid. I also liked the little red-lit tussle between Bond and Ash - but again, it's done way too quick. It starts to get great and it's over before you know it.

    The Cuba scenes were very classic (some of the gunplay felt a bit one note to me) and Zimmer's score here is incredible (the bit as Bond screams and throws himself and the other guys through the rail is one of my favorite moments) and there's a real fantastical feel to everything else - the scenery, a wild sex/birthday party for SPECTRE where Blofeld fakes crazy so he can be in attendance via a bionic eye, the instant chemistry Bond and Paloma share (she was so damn lovable and fun, I wish she had more screentime too). It really worked for me. I caught the MGW cameo too! Felt pretty obvious to me and I had forgotten about it, wasn't even looking for it.

    We get one Blofeld scene in the middle of the film and he's much, much better than he was in SP. I thought this scene was going to be insanely hokey and bordering on cringe but it was quite good. It wasn't anywhere near as overblown as I thought it would be. It's just a shame they thought it was a good idea to introduce Blofeld in the fourth film and kill him off at the end of an era. Onto the next one, I suppose! I think this is where I really start to have issues - all the nanobot and sci-fi stuff gets a bit ridiculous and the way they continuously explain it, leading to something inevitable, gets a little old. I think these moments would've fared better had they been spaced out more throughout the film's long runtime (which, yes, has terrific pacing and doesn't at all feel like a near-three hour film) or were simply explained quicker and more bluntly. These are the only moments that bog the entire experience down and make it feel a little on the long side. After that, though, I can't believe how quick it moves.

    The emotion is instantly ramped up yet again as Bond tracks down Madeleine and they share a loving moment before the reveal of Mathilde, who you can sense Bond instantly recognizes as his child, even if Madeleine wishes to brush it off and keep with finding Safin. I can't remember all the lines but I think there were a few one liners or comments here that gave me a chuckle, like the "how many secret rooms did your dad have?" line by Bond. It's funny to look back at Mr. White as this mysterious henchman in 2006 and now, 15 years later, Bond is in his old house, dating his daughter, realizing Mr. White's granddaughter is his own daughter. It's poetic, in a sense, even if I disagree with the "genius" behind an arc that was clearly retroactive. I love the action kicking off by Bond casually wondering why Nomi (I think that's how it went) is tracking Bond and not Ash, before realizing she is indeed tracking Ash and he's incredibly close. Great moment of tension that segues into everything going downhill. Once again, however, the Norway action is short - I felt like they really talked up that car chase (which does look beautiful, I love how practical it is throughout and don't get tired of all the cars and bikes coming into frame by speedily jumping over that hill) for just how short it is. What's it last, three minutes maybe? However, then we get a lovely, horror-esque hunting scene in the woods, where Bond amasses any tools and weapons he can find to take out anyone in sight. It's good fun, though I was a bit bummed by how quickly he dispatches Ash (I really dig that FYEO throwback where he casually let's the car crush him before moving on). I would've enjoyed another fight between the two.

    And finally, the finale, the point of the film that has some of the biggest highlights of the movie for me, some of the most emotional beats in the series, yet a lot of underwhelming aspects too. An old submarine pen on a World War II island? Love it. I really enjoyed the dark, wet nature of the base itself, all the shadows lurking about, flashlights illuminating these parts. I only wish the mysterious, poisonous nature of the entire lair was played up more, but I suppose we get this with Valdo's death, the nanobot vials, etc. It was used to great effect, it felt like a very long finale and I love all the work Bond and Nomi put into the mission, getting everyone to escape, Bond having to run back to open the silo doors, making his escape, seeing them shut, going back and accepting his fate. I really loved his fake begging, pleading and apologizing to Safin, too, while he slowly draws his PPK and takes out his bodyguards in rapid fashion. The tracking shot was so brilliant, effective, frenetic. This is where the gunplay and action is the biggest highlight for me, I wish it was just as impactful and gritty throughout the rest of the action sequences (whereas in Cuba, it sort of feels...flat? Quick? I don't know how to describe it.) Safin's monologue is pretty good, I just wanted much more from a villain so mysterious, from a villain who managed to single-handedly wipe out the majority of SPECTRE. You can question his abilities, where he sort of has this impossible ability to predict the future and what will happen, ala Silva, but it's the biggest way they move the big plot points forward so I accept it for what it is.

    And Bond's death? Insanely emotional, I cried, and the track (I'm guessing it's 'Final Ascent' though I could be wrong, haven't looked into the track titles all that much) couldn't have been more fitting. Also, I was surprised that all the OHMSS stuff didn't bother me in the slightest. Hearing those sweeping moments of Barry got me really emotional yet giddy as a lifelong Bond fan, and WHATTITW playing as the film closes couldn't have been more poetic for me. It does get a little "in your face" with all the "...have all the time in the world" comments but it was still effective for me. The last conversation Bond has with Q and Madeleine was supercharged in its passion and sentimentality, it was excellent. I can't believe how sad it got me and yet I still walked away happy, ended up loving the closing out of his story this way while simultaneously excited for what a new, fresh era will bring. Craig's best performance, by far, I think. I couldn't be happier that he chose to return one last time and absolutely crushed it. His legacy would've been much worse off for me had he ended things with the dumpster fire that is SP.

    Nomi got better for me as the film went on, particularly during the finale, but I felt like her sarcastic almost bitterness at times was way too played up and extreme, especially when Bond was clearly warming to her, giving her leads, congratulating her, etc. It's like she couldn't let her guard down at all. But as I said, once they're working together and communicating in the finale, I loved the repertoire and bonding they shared. Her action scenes are quite good here, loved the way she kills Valdo then instantly segues into gunning down a few bad guys and making her escape.

    Think I'll stop there, I'm rambling at this point, and even then, I'm sure there are several moments, lines, characters, aspects of the film, etc. that I've glossed over or missed. I'm surprised just how much of the film feels familiar to me after only one viewing, how much I walked away remembering, even after a night of sleep, and I look forward to further familiarizing myself with this installment. It's a really fitting, heroic end (and yes, I see it as heroic - Bond is going to die from his gunshot wounds anyway, he can never, ever hold his daughter or Madeleine again, and the blast doors need re-opened to ensure the destruction of the island - how is that not heroic?) for Craig and I love what they brought to the table. I had my reservations with the first few trailers, but the more I saw in the last two months or so, the more excited and optimistic I got. The spoilers I read brought that down for me a tad, only to somehow end up being the film's greatest strengths for me.

    Thanks for reading my wall of text and rambling thoughts.

    I haven't loved a Bond installment wholeheartedly or walked away satisfied from a new Bond movie since 2008. It's great to be back and feeling this way again.

    Great write up, I had a feeling you would like NTTD as your opinion of the DC era is similar to mine, this film sits nicely with DC's first two films for me. I think DC performance is incredible in NTTD after subsequent views I think it will be his best.

    My eyes welled up a few times during the film which rarely happen to me in the cinema, I was locked into the film emotionally from the start I think that may have a bearing on whether someone likes the film. Madeline was night and day compared to SP, I fully believed in her relationship with Bond in NTTD.

    Great photo mate, great you can share that moment with your daughter.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,213
    Maybe the Mods might step in against users, who get on a personal level with other users, who don't hate the end of NTTD.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,322
    My goodness, the hormones and personal offence in this thread. Go watch literally any of the other twenty four films to get what you want from a Bond film.

    I say it constantly lol but if any of these people were in charge of the Bond franchise we’d have just watched the 24th remake of Dr. No.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,268
    Thanks so much, @Fire_and_Ice_Returns, it really means a lot. And yes, I had hoped so, especially since our opinions really do align when it comes to the Craig era for the most part.

    @DoctorKaufmann, that's what some of us have been doing the last week or two - on either side, of course. There's no sense in using personal attacks against someone who loves the ending or hates it. It's understandable to be passionate and opinionated but when it turns personal, that's when we take issue.
  • Posts: 3,063
    I say it constantly lol but if any of these people were in charge of the Bond franchise we’d have just watched the 24th remake of Dr. No.
    That's unnecesarrily rude. Trench warfare going on around here.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,205
    It's been two days since I've seen NTTD and I'm still kind of shocked at how much this film seems to be designed for the hardcore fans (moreso than the general public)...all of the OHMSS film nods and the radical but strangely faithful adaptation of the YOLT novel.
  • AntiLocqueBrakesAntiLocqueBrakes The edge
    Posts: 538
    My eyes welled up a few times during the film which rarely happen to me in the cinema, I was locked into the film emotionally from the start I think that may have a bearing on whether someone likes the film. Madeline was night and day compared to SP, I fully believed in her relationship with Bond in NTTD.

    Great photo mate, great you can share that moment with your daughter.


    There were definitely plenty of moments in the movie where I could have teared up. If I were alone, I probably would have. Bond finding Madeleine again in Norway was one I remembered, and of course the ending.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,322
    Zekidk wrote: »
    I say it constantly lol but if any of these people were in charge of the Bond franchise we’d have just watched the 24th remake of Dr. No.
    That's unnecesarrily rude. Trench warfare going on around here.

    I don't think so, it's not personal, it's just that some of the uber-traditionalists want formulaic Bond films to a fault (IMO).

    I apologize @Zekidk if it came across that way. I thought my comment was comparatively level-headed given some of the others I've seen in this thread (not yours), but I could have been mistaken.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,268
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Well done @Creasy47 , I made it through the whole thing! I do believe you enjoyed it somewhat more than I did (though I did like it overall), and you definitely bought into the emotional ride much more than I, but essentially I agree with your points. I'm glad you are happy, at least temporarily. We both know that in a year it will fall too 23rd in your rankings.

    The one thing that I wasn't spoiled for was Bond getting his 007 designation back. That made me happy.

    Thanks for reading! And yes, that seems to be the case, but at the end of the day, I'm glad we both got some enjoyment out of it after the post-SP six year wait. It was long needed.

    And let's hope that isn't the case. I don't see it cracking the Top 10 (anything can happen); my estimate is still somewhere between 11th - 15th place. It'll be hard to tell, I really do need several more viewings of it before I'll be more confident in that.

    And I had heard about him getting his number back but it was nearing the end of the film so I figured maybe I misread that point. I'm glad he did (though am curious to know what his temporary number was, and if that's the same one Nomi was assigned to after he got '007' back).
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    I assume too that Nomi just adopted Bond's non-007 designation, and I think it's kind of cool the film never thought it necessary to tell us what number that was (but of course as a fan I'd love to know!). I'm getting the Making Of book delivered and if it provides any new info I'll let you know.
    In my mind the number was 0022; my favourite number! And in the Wired Auto-Correct interview with Craig and Lynch, the number 0022 did come up, so...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 22,005
    Zekidk wrote: »
    I say it constantly lol but if any of these people were in charge of the Bond franchise we’d have just watched the 24th remake of Dr. No.
    That's unnecesarrily rude. Trench warfare going on around here.
    Yet, I agree with @NickTwentyTwo. Given how little some are willing to deviate from the safest version of the so-called "Bond formula", we'd just end up with a generic, by-the-numbers reproduction of GF or TSWLM. I like a film that takes chances. Remember OHMSS? I bet some "true fans" really hated a Bond film that sees 007 tie the knot in 1969. Now, it's considered one of the best in the series if not THE best. Another bold move, LTK, was also heavily criticised. OMG, Bond operates outside the service! Now, it's another fairly well-received "special" film. I don't mind the occasional risky film.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,322
    Thanks @DarthDimi for articulating my thoughts better than I ever could. Even in my very first non-spoiler review of the film to a friend, I said that in time it would be appreciated up along with OHMSS (and for the same reasons - a spoilery point I left out!).

    As it's come up again, I'll say sorry one more time to @Zekidk as I regret coming across as rude with my original comment.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 359
    NicNac wrote: »
    Well, the film did borrow from the novel YOLT, and we know how that ended and how TMWTGG started.
    Yes, exactly ... and they even had Fiennes speak the quote from Jack London used in M's obituary for Bond in the novel YOLT, which can only fuel future fan theories that this NTTD Bond hasn't really died.

  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,584
    After watching it last night I’m strangely more heartbroken about the speargun sequence getting cut from the film than Bond dying at the end. What’s wrong with me?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 38,268
    jake24 wrote: »
    After watching it last night I’m strangely more heartbroken about the speargun sequence getting cut from the film than Bond dying at the end. What’s wrong with me?

    I was crushed by the changed "Mommy was very bad" line from the SF trailers to the finished film (though that turned out to be the least of my issues). It's understandable!
  • Posts: 631
    echo wrote: »
    It's been two days since I've seen NTTD and I'm still kind of shocked at how much this film seems to be designed for the hardcore fans (moreso than the general public)...all of the OHMSS film nods and the radical but strangely faithful adaptation of the YOLT novel.

    Yes, this. I have been waiting decades for the garden of death and now we have it.

    OK it’s not how I imagined it, and it’s not how Fleming did it, but I don’t care, it’s the garden of death and it’s still Fleming.

    Similarly all the OHMSS references too. I went in unspoilered and I was thrilled to see the OHMSS callbacks in the titles. Would any of the twenty-somethings in the cinema at the same time spot the reference? IDK, a few might, most wouldn’t. But it doesn’t matter, because I spotted them.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 359
    JohnBarry wrote: »
    Maybe I missed something, but can anyone explain why Madeline lied about the child being Bond's daughter. I don't get why she initially said "she isn't yours". Bond even questions that by mentioning her blue eyes.

    Good question, still trying to process that one myself ... maybe on the non-literal level, meaning because he hadn't been around for five years - and so would have no right to any moral claim to fatherhood? Madeleine may also feel she’s protecting Mathilde from the dangerous world surrounding Bond? I mean, didn't Bond lead SPECTRE to her at the Hoffler Clinic in the previous movie? And has he done the same thing in this one?
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns The Bright Side of the Road.
    Posts: 19,462
    My eyes welled up a few times during the film which rarely happen to me in the cinema, I was locked into the film emotionally from the start I think that may have a bearing on whether someone likes the film. Madeline was night and day compared to SP, I fully believed in her relationship with Bond in NTTD.

    Great photo mate, great you can share that moment with your daughter.


    There were definitely plenty of moments in the movie where I could have teared up. If I were alone, I probably would have. Bond finding Madeleine again in Norway was one I remembered, and of course the ending.

    During the Matera scene I felt emotionally overwhelmed momentarily, the music definitely got me. I have never seen OHMSS at the cinema either so I think that was partly the reason when the theme kicked in.
  • AntiLocqueBrakesAntiLocqueBrakes The edge
    Posts: 538
    Feyador wrote: »
    JohnBarry wrote: »
    Maybe I missed something, but can anyone explain why Madeline lied about the child being Bond's daughter. I don't get why she initially said "she isn't yours". Bond even questions that by mentioning her blue eyes.

    Good question, still trying to process that one myself ... maybe on the non-literal level, meaning because he hadn't been around for five years - and so would have no right to any moral claim to fatherhood? Madeleine may also feel she’s protecting Mathilde from the dangerous world surrounding Bond? I mean, didn't Bond lead SPECTRE to her at the Hoffler Clinic in the previous movie? And has he done the same thing in this one?

    Follow up questions.
    • At what point did you all realize that the child was Bond’s?
    • And at what point did Bond realize that the child was his?

    When Safin told Madeleine that she had compromised herself with a killer (to survive), I thought there was a 3rd mystery character waiting to be introduced. Then I thought, the father was Safin himself (which would have been creepy, but suspension of disbelief had set in for me). It wasn’t until the moment where Safin said, “Look at your father!”, when I realized what was going on.
  • BelinusBelinus Scotland
    Posts: 48
    Maybe the Mods might step in against users, who get on a personal level with other users, who don't hate the end of NTTD.

    Strangely, as someone who doesn’t like the end of the film I would say that you have this statement upside down. I joined here initially to vent my disappointment at the end of the film but also, as a bond fan, I am excited to talk bond. Unfortunately, I have found a lot of aggression pointed at those that don’t agree with Bond’s demise.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 359
    Follow up questions.
    • At what point did you all realize that the child was Bond’s?
    • And at what point did Bond realize that the child was his?
    When Safin told Madeleine that she had compromised herself with a killer (to survive), I thought there was a 3rd mystery character waiting to be introduced. Then I thought, the father was Safin himself (which would have been creepy, but suspension of disbelief had set in for me). It wasn’t until the moment where Safin said, “Look at your father!”, when I realized what was going on.

    I took Madeleine's initial claim at face value. I mean, what kind of person would lie about something like that?

    Perhaps one long practiced at the art of survival? And Madeleine is certainly a survivor. And a woman who has taught her own daughter how to hide.

    But I remained skeptical. And I think Bond himself didn't know for sure, as in his uncertainty in how to introduce Madeleine & Mathilde to Nomi, which is a moment I loved.

    And you know, except for confirming for Bond in their final dialogue scene together that Mathilde does have Bond's blue eyes (or consoling words to that effect) Madeleine never explicitly states that Mathilde is Bond's child. At least I think I'm right about that. But of course Mathilde must be, right? Could Safin be wrong or simply messing with Bond? It seems unlikely ....

    You know, until the Craig arc, I don't think we've really had much deliberate ambiguity in the series - though, of course, it just might be narrative incompetence in this instance. But either way, I had trouble making out some of the dialogue and will benefit tremendously from future subtitles/captions.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,784
    I liked the film a lot and look forward to multiple viewings to really get to grips with it.

    The main rankle I have with it is why is Bond so quick to blame Madeleine for the Spectre assassins? He doesn't even give her a chance to explain before dumping her on a train with "You'll never see me again.."

    If he had those sort of trust issues even after she saved him from Blofelds torture, then what realistic chance did they have?!!!

    It's possible I missed something, and if I did all clarifications are welcome...😁
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,213
    I think the more likely case is that both Craig and the producers saw eye to eye when it came to giving Bond an emotional death. Danny Boyle didn’t agree.

    I do look forward to finding out what exactly Boyle’s script would have been. That will always be the most interesting behind the scenes info for NTTD.

    Same here. Would like to know, whether it really was B oyle's refusa to let Bond die, mor whether uit was Boyle refusing to have the script revised and changed, or whether it was the casting of Tomasz Kot. Funnily, some days ago I found two articles about Boyle and Bond from the same source, the first one from 2018, where they wrote, that Boyle actually wanted Bond to be killed. In 2019/2020, the same source mentioned Boyle's refusal to have Bond killed as the reason for him walking out. Now, I can't find these articles anymore, other wise I would posted them. But maybe I will find them again.

    But, yes, would be great to know the Boyle/Hodge script.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,213
    2Wint2Kidd wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    2Wint2Kidd wrote: »
    I have no problem with Bond dying. (...) The fact he can’t see Madeline and his daughter again is what is the real heartbreaker and the motivator for his decision. Without those two he has nothing left to live for
    That seems like the general consensus. For some - and that is including me - I found it to be very weak. I don't have a problem with Bond dying, but really, come on? He is a father, and there are so many ways he could still be with his family and see his kid grow up. So he kills himself only because he can't touch them? I don't buy it.
    I don’t think he would have been clear of the blast radius in time. Wasn’t he bleeding out as well. I can understand your frustrations and it is a pretty hard thing to get over. Personally it emotionally worked for me.

    Yepp, he got shot several times by Safin and was bleeding out, maybe he would have died as a matter of these wounds?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited October 2021 Posts: 38,268
    2Wint2Kidd wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    2Wint2Kidd wrote: »
    I have no problem with Bond dying. (...) The fact he can’t see Madeline and his daughter again is what is the real heartbreaker and the motivator for his decision. Without those two he has nothing left to live for
    That seems like the general consensus. For some - and that is including me - I found it to be very weak. I don't have a problem with Bond dying, but really, come on? He is a father, and there are so many ways he could still be with his family and see his kid grow up. So he kills himself only because he can't touch them? I don't buy it.
    I don’t think he would have been clear of the blast radius in time. Wasn’t he bleeding out as well. I can understand your frustrations and it is a pretty hard thing to get over. Personally it emotionally worked for me.

    Yepp, he got shot several times by Safin and was bleeding out, maybe he would have died as a matter of these wounds?

    Those wounds absolutely would've killed him. I don't see any scenario where he re-opens the blast doors, escapes the island, avoids the explosions, gets back to Nomi/Q/whatever and is treated for his wounds. If the missiles didn't kill him, the gunshot wounds were going to.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,213
    RE the missing Bond mission 2010-12: try The International, starring Clive Owen. Bond film by another name. And at the then wind down of financial crisis, Bond vs cabal of city bankers would have made total sense.

    RE Q /gadgets etc: those had to come back. they just did not have to make a 'thing' of it. 'HEY! LOOK! HERE IS THE NEW Q!'
    THAT kind of indulgent plot substitute filler killed this series imho.

    Irony: they HAD a Q branch in BOTH Casino and Quantum. They even had two recurring actors. Precisely what Boothroyd would be: a kind of unsung hero type; brisk, civil servant /ex army armourers. As in QUARTERMASTERS!

    There was nothing original, funny or endearing about making q a needy geek.
    And there was no point in rebooting MoneyPenny just to put her back behind a desk with bugger all to do.

    So yes, I adore SKYFALL. But those reasons, among others = why it basically ended Craig's Bond and the series in many senses rather than refreshed it??

    I don't believe Cleese as Q would have worked with Craig, because of Cleese's pythonesque way of acting. Or maybe his Fawltyness.
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