Will the Producers Ever Listen to Fans? NO SPOILERS for 'NTTD'

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Comments

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 14,861
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.
  • I think part of the issue I, and I assume other hardcore fans have, with the Craig era ( I really do like the Craig era overall though) is that it’s a bit like collecting a series of books or movies or whatever that all have more or less matching designs, and then all of a sudden the new ones start changing things up so they don’t line up quite so nicely on the shelf any more. Altering stuff like the gun barrels, making super direct sequels, personal plots, etc just makes the Craig era not have the same “feel” as the older movies. And I’m not saying the producers are wrong for doing this either, I’m all for them experimenting if they think it’s in the service of the story being told, and the movies have been largely successful for it. But when you’re a super-fan so into the minutia of the series you can kinda get OCD about some of these elements when it’s harder to square them all up in a nice, satisfying way.

    I get that. Like when you buy the DVDs, you want them to all have the same uniform design so that they all look consistent with each other. But then you drop that design in favor of a new one, suddenly it’s no longer the case. I think book collectors understand that, as there was a period where the Fleming novels took awhile to have all 14 books carry a uniform design.

    Exactly. It’s a petty reason, and like, I don’t want them to adhere to strict formula just for the sake of it, and I very much like 3/4 of Craig’s movies (the least formulaic ones!), but I admit it’s like a little itch at the back of my brain when I start thinking about stuff like putting the gun barrels at the end of the movie lol.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,518
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?





    This is a crazy take.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    Univex wrote: »
    "There's no consensus amongst fans"

    And yet there are things like FRWL, GF, OHMSS or CR, which come very close to that.

    Tight good stories, well contained, good writing, and with airtight productions. And very close to the source material, as close as they could.

    I truly believe there is a sweet spot which is close to being consensual amongst Bond fans. That relativity theory works for most opinions and tastes, but despite that, there is that sweet spot which is almost universally a given.

    So they can't replicate that anymore? Really?

    How sad if true.

    You took the words out of my mouth. Thank you.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.

    Well that’s fine, you’re welcome to disagree and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong; it’s just another aspect which proves there’s not as much consensus as the OP of this thread would have us believe.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    I think part of the issue I, and I assume other hardcore fans have, with the Craig era ( I really do like the Craig era overall though) is that it’s a bit like collecting a series of books or movies or whatever that all have more or less matching designs, and then all of a sudden the new ones start changing things up so they don’t line up quite so nicely on the shelf any more. Altering stuff like the gun barrels, making super direct sequels, personal plots, etc just makes the Craig era not have the same “feel” as the older movies. And I’m not saying the producers are wrong for doing this either, I’m all for them experimenting if they think it’s in the service of the story being told, and the movies have been largely successful for it. But when you’re a super-fan so into the minutia of the series you can kinda get OCD about some of these elements when it’s harder to square them all up in a nice, satisfying way.

    I get that. Like when you buy the DVDs, you want them to all have the same uniform design so that they all look consistent with each other. But then you drop that design in favor of a new one, suddenly it’s no longer the case. I think book collectors understand that, as there was a period where the Fleming novels took awhile to have all 14 books carry a uniform design.

    Exactly. It’s a petty reason, and like, I don’t want them to adhere to strict formula just for the sake of it, and I very much like 3/4 of Craig’s movies (the least formulaic ones!), but I admit it’s like a little itch at the back of my brain when I start thinking about stuff like putting the gun barrels at the end of the movie lol.

    Heh! Now gunbarrels I will agree with! :) But I guess at least the title sequences haven’t gone anywhere.
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.

    Well that’s fine, you’re welcome to disagree and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong; it’s just another aspect which proves there’s not as much consensus as the OP of this thread would have us believe.

    As one poster pointed out, there's a pretty general consensus that 'DN,' 'FRWL,' 'GF,' 'TB,' 'YOLT,' 'OHMSS' and 'CR' are the Bond films that bring every version of Bond fan together. So, I suppose there is a fairly common ground for generalization in regard to my original post.

    Every fan wants a good script, good soundtrack, good locations, sexiness, a good lead, and the right amount of levity.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,999
    OOWolf wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.

    Well that’s fine, you’re welcome to disagree and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong; it’s just another aspect which proves there’s not as much consensus as the OP of this thread would have us believe.

    As one poster pointed out, there's a pretty general consensus that 'DN,' 'FRWL,' 'GF,' 'TB,' 'YOLT,' 'OHMSS' and 'CR' are the Bond films that bring every version of Bond fan together. So, I suppose there is a fairly common ground for generalization in regard to my original post.

    Every fan wants a good script, good soundtrack, good locations, sexiness, a good lead, and the right amount of levity.

    I’d include SF, but we know how that trashes your narrative.

    Also, nice try, but the poster you're referring to did not bring up DN, TB, and YOLT.
    Univex wrote: »
    "There's no consensus amongst fans"

    And yet there are things like FRWL, GF, OHMSS or CR, which come very close to that.

    Tight good stories, well contained, good writing, and with airtight productions. And very close to the source material, as close as they could.

    I truly believe there is a sweet spot which is close to being consensual amongst Bond fans. That relativity theory works for most opinions and tastes, but despite that, there is that sweet spot which is almost universally a given.

    So they can't replicate that anymore? Really?

    How sad if true.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    OOWolf wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.

    Well that’s fine, you’re welcome to disagree and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong; it’s just another aspect which proves there’s not as much consensus as the OP of this thread would have us believe.

    As one poster pointed out, there's a pretty general consensus that 'DN,' 'FRWL,' 'GF,' 'TB,' 'YOLT,' 'OHMSS' and 'CR' are the Bond films that bring every version of Bond fan together. So, I suppose there is a fairly common ground for generalization in regard to my original post.

    Every fan wants a good script, good soundtrack, good locations, sexiness, a good lead, and the right amount of levity.

    I’d include SF, but we know how that trashes your narrative.

    :))
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,999
    But seriously, when I was referring to a lack of consensus, I mean Bond fans can't agree on which is THE best Bond film of all time (like how Trekkies uniformly refer to WRATH OF KHAN as the best) . Back in the 90s, Boomers would put out the narrative on media that GF was the undisputed James Bond masterpiece that nobody questioned. But now, in 2021, it's much more divided because younger generations have since risen up and offered very different opinions and perspectives on which they think is the best. And that's where we come to the cream of the crop where it's generally agreed that FRWL, GF, OHMSS, TSWLM, FYEO, GE, CR, and SF are consistently ranked high among Bond fans, more than any of the other films.

    Ask a Boomer what their favorite Bond film is, it's probably a Connery title. Ask a GenXer what they're favorite is, it's likely a Moore title. Millennial, it's probably a Brosnan title. Zoomers will undoubtedly pick a Craig title, as he was their Bond growing up.

    The further we get away from the 60s, the lesser it's seen as the default of what Bond films should be like. I remember there was a parody video by Joe Cornish about the title song for QOS, and at one point "Sometimes I wish Roger Moore would come back". Makes sense, he's very much of that generation brought up on Moore.
  • quantumspectrequantumspectre argentina
    Posts: 61
    if they listen to fans we will get a campy bond 007 after all the serious daniel craig movies. the thing is if they already know we want light movies again. i love dramas and i like craig era, but yes, sometimes is too dramatic, instead of brosnan light era.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    But seriously, when I was referring to a lack of consensus, I mean Bond fans can't agree on which is THE best Bond film of all time (like how Trekkies uniformly refer to WRATH OF KHAN as the best) . Back in the 90s, Boomers would put out the narrative on media that GF was the undisputed James Bond masterpiece that nobody questioned. But now, in 2021, it's much more divided because younger generations have since risen up and offered very different opinions and perspectives on which they think is the best. And that's where we come to the cream of the crop where it's generally agreed that FRWL, GF, OHMSS, TSWLM, FYEO, GE, CR, and SF are consistently ranked high among Bond fans, more than any of the other films.

    Ask a Boomer what their favorite Bond film is, it's probably a Connery title. Ask a GenXer what they're favorite is, it's likely a Moore title. Millennial, it's probably a Brosnan title. Zoomers will undoubtedly pick a Craig title, as he was their Bond growing up.

    The further we get away from the 60s, the lesser it's seen as the default of what Bond films should be like. I remember there was a parody video by Joe Cornish about the title song for QOS, and at one point "Sometimes I wish Roger Moore would come back". Makes sense, he's very much of that generation brought up on Moore.

    As with all fandoms it would be interesting to see if there genuinely is anything that there is actually a total consensus on.

    My suggestion might be: are there any Bond fans who don’t like the work of John Barry? I don’t think I’ve come across any who don’t..?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Excellent point. All other composers have their fair share of fans and critics, but John Barry is very universal.

    I do think if Barry was able to score the Brosnan films, we would have started seen some complaints about his method of scoring, which had become much more slow and melancholy, because that was they style he really wanted to lean more towards after his Oscar win with DANCES WITH WOLVES.

    There's that very famous account of how John Barry almost scored THE INCREDIBLES. Brad Bird regarded him as a musical hero and wanted him to bring that 60s adventure sound to his film. Instead, Barry delivers a few samples of music that's slow and very melancholy. Brad Bird asks why he didn't do the 60s Bondian sound like he asked, and Barry said "I can do that in my sleep". After trying and trying to budge him to the older sound, Barry eventually quit. Thus Michael Giacchino was brought in and did a big John Barry 60s style score.
  • Posts: 2,400
    But seriously, when I was referring to a lack of consensus, I mean Bond fans can't agree on which is THE best Bond film of all time (like how Trekkies uniformly refer to WRATH OF KHAN as the best).

    It's so funny you would bring that up considering that The Undiscovered Country is the best Trek film ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Excellent point. All other composers have their fair share of fans and critics, but John Barry is very universal.

    I do think if Barry was able to score the Brosnan films, we would have started seen some complaints about his method of scoring, which had become much more slow and melancholy, because that was they style he really wanted to lean more towards after his Oscar win with DANCES WITH WOLVES.

    Yep, this is true. I also think that although everyone liking Barry is a fairly safe bet, but I imagine if you asked a load of fans who their favourite 007 composer is it might not always be Barry. And there certainly isn’t a total consensus on what the best Bond score is.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    mtm wrote: »
    Excellent point. All other composers have their fair share of fans and critics, but John Barry is very universal.

    I do think if Barry was able to score the Brosnan films, we would have started seen some complaints about his method of scoring, which had become much more slow and melancholy, because that was they style he really wanted to lean more towards after his Oscar win with DANCES WITH WOLVES.

    Yep, this is true. I also think that although everyone liking Barry is a fairly safe bet, but I imagine if you asked a load of fans who their favourite 007 composer is it might not always be Barry. And there certainly isn’t a total consensus on what the best Bond score is.

    Well, the appeal of David Arnold has always eluded me. ;)
    But seriously, when I was referring to a lack of consensus, I mean Bond fans can't agree on which is THE best Bond film of all time (like how Trekkies uniformly refer to WRATH OF KHAN as the best).

    It's so funny you would bring that up considering that The Undiscovered Country is the best Trek film ;)

    OH YOU!!!

    :P
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    edited October 2021 Posts: 140
    OOWolf wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.

    Well that’s fine, you’re welcome to disagree and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong; it’s just another aspect which proves there’s not as much consensus as the OP of this thread would have us believe.

    As one poster pointed out, there's a pretty general consensus that 'DN,' 'FRWL,' 'GF,' 'TB,' 'YOLT,' 'OHMSS' and 'CR' are the Bond films that bring every version of Bond fan together. So, I suppose there is a fairly common ground for generalization in regard to my original post.

    Every fan wants a good script, good soundtrack, good locations, sexiness, a good lead, and the right amount of levity.

    I’d include SF, but we know how that trashes your narrative.

    Also, nice try, but the poster you're referring to did not bring up DN, TB, and YOLT.
    Univex wrote: »
    "There's no consensus amongst fans"

    And yet there are things like FRWL, GF, OHMSS or CR, which come very close to that.

    Tight good stories, well contained, good writing, and with airtight productions. And very close to the source material, as close as they could.

    I truly believe there is a sweet spot which is close to being consensual amongst Bond fans. That relativity theory works for most opinions and tastes, but despite that, there is that sweet spot which is almost universally a given.

    So they can't replicate that anymore? Really?

    How sad if true.

    Shifting my narrative or not, you know exactly what I mean.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    OOWolf wrote: »
    OOWolf wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    It would be a grave mistake to simply keep making the same formulaic Bond film over and over.

    Like the last 5 Bond films in a row?

    As someone who watched all five within about a 36 hour span, that's a ridiculous statement to me. These are five different films.

    They're awfully formulaic to me. But that's okay, we all see things differently.

    And a lot of fans ask for the films to be formulaic: they literally use the word formula. No wonder Eon wouldn’t ask them what they want! :D

    Ironically, I never found the original 20 films formulaic. It was a new adventure with every one. Never a dull moment.

    Even when they were literally remaking themselves? And then Casino Royale suddenly felt like a formulaic drudge? Which one did it remind you of? That is a surprising reaction.

    Which ones were remakes? I've heard people say AVTAK is a remake of Goldfinger but I never saw what people meant by that. Casino Royale was a fresh take but every Craig movie that followed was just a repeat of the same tropes after 15 years of it, it's stale.

    I’m surprised you can’t spot the similarity, and then you’ve got TSWLM remaking YOLT, with dashes of TB too, they all remake DN in some way… there are so many it’s hard to mention them all. But look at the Bond parodies perhaps and think why there are elements they seize upon.
    It’s fine you think it’s formulaic now ( and I don’t even massively disagree; I saw the trail for NTTD and my reaction was ‘that looks like a Craig Bond film’) but the fact that fans who want it to go back to the Brosnan style or whatever think it’s because those were formulaic and they liked that which just shows there is no consensus. Even if other fans disagree and think there is, which is perhaps the biggest irony since Alanis couldn’t find a fork.

    I mean I can see the YOLT/TSWLM similarities but I don't consider TSWLM a remake of YOLT. I don't really see the DN analogy you mention either to be honest. I mean yes YOLT is a favorite to spoof amongst Bond parodies but not every Bond film remade YOLT. That was more a Lewis Gilbert quirk.

    Well that’s fine, you’re welcome to disagree and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong; it’s just another aspect which proves there’s not as much consensus as the OP of this thread would have us believe.

    As one poster pointed out, there's a pretty general consensus that 'DN,' 'FRWL,' 'GF,' 'TB,' 'YOLT,' 'OHMSS' and 'CR' are the Bond films that bring every version of Bond fan together. So, I suppose there is a fairly common ground for generalization in regard to my original post.

    Every fan wants a good script, good soundtrack, good locations, sexiness, a good lead, and the right amount of levity.

    I’d include SF, but we know how that trashes your narrative.

    Also, nice try, but the poster you're referring to did not bring up DN, TB, and YOLT.
    Univex wrote: »
    "There's no consensus amongst fans"

    And yet there are things like FRWL, GF, OHMSS or CR, which come very close to that.

    Tight good stories, well contained, good writing, and with airtight productions. And very close to the source material, as close as they could.

    I truly believe there is a sweet spot which is close to being consensual amongst Bond fans. That relativity theory works for most opinions and tastes, but despite that, there is that sweet spot which is almost universally a given.

    So they can't replicate that anymore? Really?

    How sad if true.

    Shifting my narrative or not, you know exactly what I mean.

    I know what you mean, I'm just saying you're out of touch if you suggest SF is not a popular Bond film among fans.

    I do think you'll find this blogger interesting. He's been extremely critical (and salty) about Craig's run.

    http://n007.thegoldeneye.com/two_views_casino_royale.html
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    mtm wrote: »
    Excellent point. All other composers have their fair share of fans and critics, but John Barry is very universal.

    I do think if Barry was able to score the Brosnan films, we would have started seen some complaints about his method of scoring, which had become much more slow and melancholy, because that was they style he really wanted to lean more towards after his Oscar win with DANCES WITH WOLVES.

    Yep, this is true. I also think that although everyone liking Barry is a fairly safe bet, but I imagine if you asked a load of fans who their favourite 007 composer is it might not always be Barry. And there certainly isn’t a total consensus on what the best Bond score is.

    I don't think there has been a single unmemorable cue in a Barry scored Bond. That's why so many love what he did during his time in the franchise. The melodies are identifiable, he included jazz chords that were hip and sexy, and he always knew to maintain a pop sensibility, even in a classical setting. David Arnold may be the only composer after Barry to have done his homework.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    My problem with Arnold is that while knows how to make the Bond sound, but he doesn't know how to use it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,050
    My problem with Arnold is that while knows how to make the Bond sound, but he doesn't know how to use it.

    The same thing could be said about Purvis and Wade’s writing. EON (expect for Martin Campbell) has been too soft on them, while the fans have been too hard on them.
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    My problem with Arnold is that while knows how to make the Bond sound, but he doesn't know how to use it.

    I fully agree with that. By the way, thanks for posting that blogger. Some great writing int there!: “Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.” It gives the impression that the new 007 had snapped and wanted to attack customers at the local hardware store with an Uzi. -Hahahahahahahahaha
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    My problem with Arnold is that while knows how to make the Bond sound, but he doesn't know how to use it.

    The same thing could be said about Purvis and Wade’s writing. EON (expect for Martin Campbell) has been too soft on them, while the fans have been too hard on them.

    EON fully understands Purvis & Wade's strengths and weaknesses, this is why they always bring in other writers to rewrite the scripts. None of their works have ever come out without heavy rewriting by other parties.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,050
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    My problem with Arnold is that while knows how to make the Bond sound, but he doesn't know how to use it.

    The same thing could be said about Purvis and Wade’s writing. EON (expect for Martin Campbell) has been too soft on them, while the fans have been too hard on them.

    EON fully understands Purvis & Wade's strengths and weaknesses, this is why they always bring in other writers to rewrite the scripts. None of their works have ever come out without heavy rewriting by other parties.

    One of the reasons why EON needs new writing blood. New Bond, new writers! Number one change that needs to happen.
  • OOWolfOOWolf Savannah
    Posts: 140
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    My problem with Arnold is that while knows how to make the Bond sound, but he doesn't know how to use it.

    The same thing could be said about Purvis and Wade’s writing. EON (expect for Martin Campbell) has been too soft on them, while the fans have been too hard on them.

    EON fully understands Purvis & Wade's strengths and weaknesses, this is why they always bring in other writers to rewrite the scripts. None of their works have ever come out without heavy rewriting by other parties.

    One of the reasons why EON needs new writing blood. New Bond, new writers! Number one change that needs to happen.

    Absolutely. I imagine they kept P&W around so long because they were the most economic choice. Time for new everything, no doubt.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    OK I am happy producers do not listen to fans in general. What a mess it would be. Plus they, and all of us, know they cannot please all the fans.

    So by the way, I like and appreciate David Arnold very much. Happy if he returned.
    Also Purvis and Wade having a hand in is okay with me. I do think new writers are an important element and helpful to move the series forward. But I don't dislike P&W.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    I’ve just rewatched Casino Royale in preparation for NTTD and came to the realization that I do not like the score. The comment above about David Arnold reminded me.
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