Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (30th June 2023)

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 14,861
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »

    But i mean purely in terms of character - Marion is feisty, independent, tough, resourceful. Everything that some people seem to dislike in female characters today

    That’s not the same thing as a woke caricature that isn’t an actual character and/or undercuts or appropriates a male/story.

    Luckily that doesn't exist in this film, so it's pointless to complain about it.


    Can we start a 'woke' thread for these boring arguments to go into?

    I’m glad you know what’s in this film, but how about you stop trying to control the thread and other people’s points.

    You'll notice I don't know what's in this film, but neither do you, so complaining about 'woke caricatures' has no relevance to it. I'm merely suggesting that complaining about something that you have no evidence for even happening is a colossal waste of time.
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    This is a Kathleen Kennedy production.So most likely,Indy will be humiliated by the young female star who will know everything and be better than him at everything.He will also most likely die at the end in a horrible way and the young female star will carry on after him.

    Basically pretty much how they humiliated Han Solo in The Force Awakens.

    I loved when all of these things happened in those other Kathleen Kennedy productions like ET, Jurassic Park, Munich, The Sixth Sense etc. as well.

    You do know that KK wasn’t in charge of the studio for those right? Not that I’m agreeing with fear monger Over Indy 5, but some concerns aren’t misplaced given her agenda and track record of running things,

    I was being more than a bit tongue-in-cheek, admittedly. Although, the use of the word "agenda" there raised a curious eyebrow! What agenda does she have, other than to obviously make films?

    Oh please don't, you know what the answer will be. Just leave these people (well, men) to it.
    But I will say how it's funny how films that she was actually the producer on she supposedly had less power and influence over than the ones where she was studio head, despite that being a much more removed role from the direct production process. Just like how Barbara Broccoli has little influence over the Bond films: it's all about the 'agenda' that the current MGM boss wants, obviously.
    Dude, if you see my name on here, do not respond to my statements. I don’t want to hear your opinion on mine (or anyone else’s statements for that matter).

    I would say it's tricky to hear things you read, but anyway; I think it's a bit of a shame you can't accept certain views being challenged.

    I’m not the one being unaccepting of “views being challenged.” I think you’re spamming the thread, you’re not in control, and shouldn’t manipulate other people’s words. You don’t need to comment on everyone’s comments, particularly if you disagree.

    I can comment on what I like, thanks, as can you. I'm not spamming, I'm talking about Indiana Jones.
    You can hardly accuse me of trying to be 'in control' when you're also trying to tell me "do not respond to my statements".
    Ironically you have actually convinced me not to respond to this anymore, it's tiresome and I'm sure everyone else is as bored of reading it as I am.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I’ve always pictured Marion being 18 or 19ish when she first met Indy, and her referring to herself as a “child” was figurative. I’ve never thought, or will ever think that he was involved with a minor.

    Say she's 28 in Raiders & it happened a decade ago. Then you're right!

    Yeah that's certainly the way I prefer to take it: it's lucky that there aren't any dates mentioned (I think). The only slight issue is Indy's age in relation to hers (although I guess it turns out that Indy is a couple of years younger than Ford, so that's something), and how I think he was at college when it happened, but you're right that he says they haven't spoken in ten years so it does work. They obviously originally intended for it to be with Marion as a minor but the final film doesn't feature that, although the lines "I was child, it was wrong and you knew it", "Do you know what you did to me, to my life?" etc. do go a bit further to implying that it wasn't only figurative. There's also something a bit worrying about the way he phrases it "I did what I did". Exactly what did he do to her?
    Even without that, it's maybe a bit weird that she was 18 or so and he was 27-ish, but I guess it's not the creepiest thing. Personally I just try to ignore it! :)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    mtm wrote: »
    although the lines "I was child, it was wrong and you knew it", "Do you know what you did to me, to my life?" etc. do go a bit further to implying that it wasn't only figurative. There's also something a bit worrying about the way he phrases it "I did what I did". Exactly what did he do to her?
    It was wrong for a teacher to get involved with a student. When he broke it off with her, it shattered her. That's what she's talking about. I think....
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 14,861
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    although the lines "I was child, it was wrong and you knew it", "Do you know what you did to me, to my life?" etc. do go a bit further to implying that it wasn't only figurative. There's also something a bit worrying about the way he phrases it "I did what I did". Exactly what did he do to her?
    It was wrong for a teacher to get involved with a student. When he broke it off with her, it shattered her. That's what she's talking about. I think....

    Well he confirmed (in the FBI scene) that he studied under Prof Ravenwood at Chicago, not that he was teaching at the time. Getting involved with your teacher's daughter isn't morally wrong in itself so it suggests that there was something else...
    I'm sure you're probably right about the thing he 'did to her' being him breaking it off, but it is very unfortunately phrased. It's maybe the only bit of clumsy dialogue in the film if they didn't intend it to be read that way as reading between the lines creates some unfortunate results. But the rest of it is so deftly written that it seems hard to believe that this is the only scene where they messed up (especially as they'd had it written for ages: Selleck's audition has him playing this scene).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    For what it's worth, here's all the details about Indy's inappropriate relationship with Marion. Indy was a 26 year old student of Abner when he started sleeping with a 16 year old Marion. The affair lasted for two years before Abner found out and their friendship was destroyed.

    https://indianajones.fandom.com/wiki/Marion_Ravenwood

    This is considered by LucasFilm all canon.

    Funnily, the Young Indiana Jones was supposed to eventually introduce Abner and Marion in later episodes. Makes me wonder just how far Lucas would have gone with that story and how much of an outrage it would have stirred.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 14,861
    Thanks for that: interesting to see that she was originally 25 in the script (making her 15 when her and Indy split up) but that changed to 27 in 2008 when they retconned that for their Ultimate Guide book. I guess it’s fairly clear that when she says she was a child she was intended to be being literal. Creepy! But happily it’s easily ignored.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 14,861
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Phoebe Waller Bridge destroys everything she comes near.Especially Harrison Ford led franchises...




    Let that be an end to that clickbait nonsense. Moving on...
  • I heard No Time to Die actually ends with Nomi killing Bond *and* Indiana Jones and taking on both their mantles.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Is anyone really crying out for an Indy 5, apart from a small minority of nostalgics? In all honesty, I can't see this movie doing all that well. I'm even getting Trail of the Pink Panther vibes from this movie.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,834
    I'm personally super excited :)
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,891
    Same here Indiana Jones is an iconic character with broad appeal. It try that nostalgia will be part of it’s appeal , but ultimately the quality of the film is what matters; if it’s a good film, it will be successful and draw a diverse audience.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    That last one made a ton of money (I think it earned more than Iron Man that year? Might be wrong) and although that was a while ago it did show that Indy was still a popular character even after all those years.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 6,665
    Well, KOTCS almost killed the nostalgia factor for me. To be fair, the only franchise, still going, that can hold a candle nostalgia wise is our man Bond. Thank heavens for EON. Although, in all fairness, in 2002 I'd say about DUD what I just said about KOTCS. So, who knows?

    But that's the thing, if in one hand you have a 60 year old franchise that was kept in the family, and they can go for course correction every time, with their accumulated experience and good sense, in the other hand you have a couple of franchises that keep changing hands one way or another. So, there's a big difference right there. The M:i films keep working because of the same factor, they have someone at the helm, and it's not the directors, it's the actor/producer.

    The only thing that draws me in to this 5th entry is HF. But he is definitely not at the helm of this rather shaky boat. I guess we'll see. I'm always ready to be pleasantly surprised :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 14,861
    He never has been at the helm: he's the actor. He's still playing the lead character and I'd be amazed if he doesn't have script sign-off power though.

    The thought of James Mangold making it does enthuse me though- after something like Ford vs Ferrari (which actually has the aesthetic sensibilities of an Indy movie when you go back and look) I think he's got the chops to make this a really good film: possibly actually better than Spielberg at this point in his career. And they're actually going to different locations around the world (unlike last time), doing stunts... it feels like there's a bit more energy being put into it this time.

    This is fun:


  • Posts: 3,333
    Firstly, this is going to depend on how good the CGI is at de-aging Harrison Ford. Next is going to be the plot and story development. Setting this in the late Sixties feels very un-Indy Jones inspired to me and is crossing dangerously over into Connery Bond territory. If the plot involving multiple universes and time travel is true, then this could make the "shark jump" of Crystal Skull look grounded. Personally, I have as much enthusiasm for this as Clint Eastwood playing Dirty Harry again at aged 79.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I didn’t ask for this movie, but I’m open to seeing if they did something good.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Yes that aspect is a bizarre and wrong choice.

    But i mean purely in terms of character - Marion is feisty, independent, tough, resourceful. Everything that some people seem to dislike in female characters today

    Yep she is all those but she’s ultimately the damsel in distress who gets rescued by Jones.And there’s nothing wrong with that because Indy is the main character of the film.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Yes that aspect is a bizarre and wrong choice.

    But i mean purely in terms of character - Marion is feisty, independent, tough, resourceful. Everything that some people seem to dislike in female characters today

    Yep she is all those but she’s ultimately the damsel in distress who gets rescued by Jones.And there’s nothing wrong with that because Indy is the main character of the film.

    Do you accept that the thing you posted was a load of hogwash? Did you see the tweet where the director said to stop being so gullible and falling for clickbait?
  • Posts: 1,545
    In some pictures - such as bicycling - H Ford looks great. In some others, he looks every bit of his years although, as Indy said, "It ain't the years, it's the mileage." As long as he avoids any more shoulder injuries (swinging mirrors, in a sense) here's hoping ! (Fingers crossed) After this one, though, well, it would wind up being a passing-the-torch or hero's-death story. Would anyone want either ? We already saw an even older Indy in the TV show - alive, albeit with an eyepatch. Perhaps Indy gets an eye injury or an eyeball popped out in this coming film ?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    For what it's worth, here's all the details about Indy's inappropriate relationship with Marion. Indy was a 26 year old student of Abner when he started sleeping with a 16 year old Marion. The affair lasted for two years before Abner found out and their friendship was destroyed.

    https://indianajones.fandom.com/wiki/Marion_Ravenwood

    This is considered by LucasFilm all canon.

    Funnily, the Young Indiana Jones was supposed to eventually introduce Abner and Marion in later episodes. Makes me wonder just how far Lucas would have gone with that story and how much of an outrage it would have stirred.

    26 & 16 is a little pushing it... but then like it was said in Bill & Ted- girls mature faster than guys! ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Sure and to be fair Lucas wanted it to be scandalous. There’s a written transcript between Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan breaking down how young she could be to make it controversial. At one point Lucas considered 11 (!!!) as an extreme before settling on 16 as that would have been more taboo than 17.
    Lawrence Kasdan: I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.

    George Lucas: I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

    Kasdan: And he was forty-two.

    Lucas: He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.

    Spielberg: She had better be older than twenty-two.

    Lucas: He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.

    Lucas: It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

    Spielberg: And promiscuous. She came onto him.

    Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...

    Spielberg: She has pictures of him.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,891
    In what State did their relationship take place?

    “ The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century. By 1920, 26 states had an age of consent at 16, 21 states had an age of consent at 18, and one state (Georgia) had an age of consent at 14”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#History

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    It wouldn’t matter, it’s still kinda skeevey that Indy sleeps with a teenager. Any dad would have punch the lights out of a guy doing that with their daughter, no matter the age of consent.

    One bit I like in RAIDERS is that when reuniting with Marion he’s trying to play it cool when she calls him out. But earlier in the movie when he’s asked about Abner he looks regretful when talking about it.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,891
    I actually agree which is why I will always think of her as at least 18 at the time of their relationship.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 3,161
    Things are happening in London:
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    FAFEB3QXoAAN_pL.jpg

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    And a cheeky snap of Mr F going to set:

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Indy has arrived in Sicily:

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,053
    I’m thinking more and more that we may get our first look at the movie before the end of the year.
  • I'm fed up of hearing all this woke rubbish about Marion's age at time if relationship with Indy. It's a film! Let's not take things so seriously. Indy is not Harvey Weinstein or any predator like that.
  • Posts: 1,545
    That's the point, though. The younger Marion was at the time of their relationship prior to meeting again in ROTLA, the more Indy, to be very understated, did not choose wisely. Reportedly, Lucas wanted to set it up such that Marion would have been sickeningly younger than Indy. Fortunately, his ideas did not win out. In the final version as filmed, if Marion was an adult in the earlier timeframe. Still leaves one creeped out by Mr. Lucas's creative vision. Some people are not fed up by "woke rubbish" as much as by actual child abuse and rape and sexual harassment, and for a popular entertainment to treat it lightly would not help.
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