Octopussy or The Living Daylights?

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Comments

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    I grant that the Cello scene at the border smacks too much of the previous Bond regimes' tone, and I would add the clumsy stuff that undercuts the Aston Martin car chase, but no way in tone overall is TLD anywhere near some of the really campy and comedic stuff from OP.
    Agreed. And I don't hate the cello thing at all.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,817
    @ForYourEyesOnly

    OK, fair enough, I see I can't convince you, so I'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't see how the land rover, Koskov's survival or even the cello chase matches the ridiculousness of things like a plane emerging from the backside of a horse, Vijay's tennis match, the boob zoom, the crocodile, or the clown. I don't malign the clown as much others but it could've been avoided.
    Actually I don't think 'sit' or the snake charmer theme are cringeworthy at all, in fact I was shocked to hear that people hated them, I thought they were very clever jokes.

    Grant's death was great, I wasn't claiming otherwise. Stromberg's death I realise I am alone on, so I won't try to convince anyone, it's just that the lack of score in that sequence and the general lack of tension, as well as the mundanity of his death (a gunshot? Really?) makes me think of it quite lowly. What you say about Stromberg feeling pain is true, but I don't feel it as much as you do. The film also doesn't end quick enough after his death.

    But TWINE's is the worst. Not Elektra's, hers fit very well, and Bond's confrontation with Elektra is probably the second-best thing about TWINE. But Renard's death is a complete anticlimax given how much set-up there is about the bullet that will eventually kill him.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    @ForYourEyesOnly

    OK, fair enough, I see I can't convince you, so I'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't see how the land rover, Koskov's survival or even the cello chase matches the ridiculousness of things like a plane emerging from the backside of a horse, Vijay's tennis match, the boob zoom, the crocodile, or the clown. I don't malign the clown as much others but it could've been avoided.
    Actually I don't think 'sit' or the snake charmer theme are cringeworthy at all, in fact I was shocked to hear that people hated them, I thought they were very clever jokes.

    I don't hate them, but they're not much better than much of the stuff that OP is maligned for. I don't mind the snake charmer theme as much either, although from my last watch of OP Roger had a hint of genuine fear in his voice when he said "sit!". Not the worst thing, but perhaps a bit uncomfortable. The clown I don't mind as much because it goes two ways - the scenario is outrageous, but it's also desperate and somewhat reminiscent of some of the older Hitchcockian scenarios where nobody believes you because you're in a ridiculous position (ie. dressed as a clown). As stupid as it is visually, the scene is still very tense.
    Grant's death was great, I wasn't claiming otherwise. Stromberg's death I realise I am alone on, so I won't try to convince anyone, it's just that the lack of score in that sequence and the general lack of tension, as well as the mundanity of his death (a gunshot? Really?) makes me think of it quite lowly. What you say about Stromberg feeling pain is true, but I don't feel it as much as you do. The film also doesn't end quick enough after his death.

    You mentioned FRWL, which could only have been Grant or Klebb.

    True, Bond fighting the henchman after the villain dies is a bit strange, and it's one of the quirks of TSWLM. It's a bit strangely paced at the end. Stromberg's death wasn't as dramatic as some of the others, I agree, but it was cold enough. Far more satisfactory than Whitaker's death or Koskov's fate.

    There's nothing mundane about a gunshot or other less dramatic means if it's executed well - we have LeChiffre dying by gunshot, Silva by knife, Grant by being strangled, Elektra being shot, Scaramanga being shot, etc. Stromberg's death is one of the more dramatic ones by gunshot.
    But TWINE's is the worst. Not Elektra's, hers fit very well, and Bond's confrontation with Elektra is probably the second-best thing about TWINE. But Renard's death is a complete anticlimax given how much set-up there is about the bullet that will eventually kill him.

    True, the final fight isn't exactly what I hoped for (the writing in TWINE just feels more rushed and almost improvised in general). But I didn't hate the nuclear rod through the chest.
  • @ForYourEyesOnly
    I don't even hate the clown, I just hate what it did the franchise... It's become a scapegoat used to hate OP... and usually used as a metaphor for what the series had become at that point, even though it is well-conceived. So it should have been avoided.

    When I mentioned FRWL I meant Klebb, I did think that was obvious... I don't understand how no one seems to realise how flat and disappointing her death is...

    No, you are right, it is not the gunshot that makes things anticlimactic. Fair enough. But in all the examples you mentioned, there is a suitable sense of 'drama' in them. They all happen suddenly and hence they surprise. There is no surprise in Stromberg's death. I would not agree that it is dramatic, but I do see how some people could get that it is. And yes by the time Bond faces Jaws again in another really clunky fight I tune out.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,954
    I like them both but give the edge to TLD
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    @IncompetentHenchman

    1. True, it's quite pitiful that everyone only focuses on one aspect to hate on a film. Even for rank #24, you need to be able to look at the contrast between the elements of the film or between that film and others, rather than adhere to a single moment that you despise. That's not how you rank or criticize movies, which is why I don't take any OP review seriously that disses it just for the clown, or AVTAK just for Moore's age, or DAD just for the surfing scene. Even if they are horrendous scenes that stick with you throughout the movie, you have to find more to talk about than just one element, because just one element never defines a whole movie.

    2. It's not as good as a lot of the others, sure, but that might just be down to 60's cinematography. The idea was clearly to build up tension over whether Romanova was going to shoot Bond or Klebb. I do agree that it isn't the best death scene by a long shot, though.

    3. That's somewhat true, but again, I prefer it over Whitaker's death. In TSWLM, it's not just another casual activation of a gadget to kill the villain (as happens in MR and TLD), it's Bond using his gun to coldly inflict maximal pain. I reckon that it'd be a stronger scene if we had greater, more tense interactions between Bond and Stromberg where they'd be a clearer reason for Bond being so cold. As it stands, it seems like Bond killed Stromberg coldly because of the implications of what the latter did when he took Amasova away.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Both make it into my top 10, but The Living Daylights is easily the superior film.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,817
    @IncompetentHenchman

    1. True, it's quite pitiful that everyone only focuses on one aspect to hate on a film. Even for rank #24, you need to be able to look at the contrast between the elements of the film or between that film and others, rather than adhere to a single moment that you despise. That's not how you rank or criticize movies, which is why I don't take any OP review seriously that disses it just for the clown, or AVTAK just for Moore's age, or DAD just for the surfing scene. Even if they are horrendous scenes that stick with you throughout the movie, you have to find more to talk about than just one element, because just one element never defines a whole movie.

    2. It's not as good as a lot of the others, sure, but that might just be down to 60's cinematography. The idea was clearly to build up tension over whether Romanova was going to shoot Bond or Klebb. I do agree that it isn't the best death scene by a long shot, though.

    3. That's somewhat true, but again, I prefer it over Whitaker's death. In TSWLM, it's not just another casual activation of a gadget to kill the villain (as happens in MR and TLD), it's Bond using his gun to coldly inflict maximal pain. I reckon that it'd be a stronger scene if we had greater, more tense interactions between Bond and Stromberg where they'd be a clearer reason for Bond being so cold. As it stands, it seems like Bond killed Stromberg coldly because of the implications of what the latter did when he took Amasova away.

    1. I agree.
    2. I suppose so, though I can't for the life of me imagine Romanova even considering shooting Bond.
    3. But at least in MR there was a sense of surprise in the villain's death because it is sudden and unexpected. In both TLD (I agree) and TSWLM you see it coming a mile away and there is no surprise. You are right about inflicting maximum pain, but that's not really my problem I think. It's simply that a villain's death should be quick, sharp and sudden. Stromberg is shot, then he is shot again, then again, and then a fourth time. His death is prolonged way out of proportion. Just get it over with! In that vein, Trevelyan's death is one of the few annoyances I have about GE (the fall definitely should have killed him, the cradle toppling over him was over doing it).
  • Posts: 12,506
    TLD just!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    On my latest list, Octopussy came up at #8, while The Living Daylights was considerably further down at #14. There are two pivotal differences for this, and they both lie around the Bond actor. One, Roger Moore just has a charisma that Dalton lacks. Second, these types of films are quite similar and are better suited for Moore than Dalton. I could write a much more extended piece on that but I assume most people would understand why.

    In other areas, TLD has the greater plot, while OP has the better cast. The score and stunts are fantastic in both - I really don't want to and don't feel the need to compare them directly. I will say that the TLD theme song is better, but in terms of how the instrumental versions of the theme songs are used in the film, OP definitely wins. However, the problems with OP (the excessively humourous bits) are short-lived, while TLD's problems are more long-lasting, which adds to the disparity between the two.

    I still like both, but OP is just a better watch in my opinion.

    Changed my mind, and now I agree with this.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,949
    On my latest list, Octopussy came up at #8, while The Living Daylights was considerably further down at #14. There are two pivotal differences for this, and they both lie around the Bond actor. One, Roger Moore just has a charisma that Dalton lacks. Second, these types of films are quite similar and are better suited for Moore than Dalton. I could write a much more extended piece on that but I assume most people would understand why.

    In other areas, TLD has the greater plot, while OP has the better cast. The score and stunts are fantastic in both - I really don't want to and don't feel the need to compare them directly. I will say that the TLD theme song is better, but in terms of how the instrumental versions of the theme songs are used in the film, OP definitely wins. However, the problems with OP (the excessively humourous bits) are short-lived, while TLD's problems are more long-lasting, which adds to the disparity between the two.

    I still like both, but OP is just a better watch in my opinion.

    Changed my mind, and now I agree with this.

    Interesting. I think OP has the better plot by far and TLD the better cast by far.

    I like the cello scene. It's clever and the cello is nicely woven into their relationship. I do think the magic carpet ride was wisely deleted as going too far (and it might have been derivative of the cello case escape).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Even if OP didn't have the Tarzan yell or the utterly ridiculous exterior plane fight I'd still rank TLD higher just for Dalton's take on Bond. That said, OP IS endlessly entertaining.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,263
    TLD for me, I do enjoy OP it was my first Cinema Bond experience though there is too many dodgy moments in the OP that undermines it.

    The strength of OP where is does better than TLD is the chemistry between the two leads, Moore and Adams are brilliant together in OP.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    TLD is #1 and OP is #2. I love both - I prefer OP more overall but TLD has more compelling spy moments that edges it over OP
  • Posts: 207
    The Living Daylights is #1 on my list and Octopussy is #8.
  • edited August 2021 Posts: 646
    OP is my #3 (just behind TSWLM and LALD - big Rog fan I am :) ) but TLD is not too far behind either at #6 or #7. Both are the 2 best Bond films of the 80s, with FYEO taking a comfortable 3rd place.
  • Posts: 2,400
    OP is my #7 and TLD is my #6, so it's a tough call.
  • Posts: 47
    I prefer Octopussy over The Living Daylights
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,686
    They're both in my top five, but I suppose TLD just takes it for me. If EON asked me what I want future Bond movies to look like, I'd probably point to these very two.
  • Posts: 615
    TLD is #5 on my Bond Movie Ranking list, while OP is #22.

    So not even close.
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Haydock, England
    Posts: 254
    TLD - Although they run out of steam in the third act with the Afghanistan jaunt and Koskov and Whittaker are two extremely weak villains, TLD just edges it.
  • Posts: 6,799
    Just had a quick scroll through this thread, and TLD pretty much dominates!
    Still, OP is still a great Bond film, lots to enjoy in it!
  • My appreciation for Octopussy is slowlyyyy improving every time I see it, but I’m afraid it’s still fairly low in my rankings whereas TLD is a top 5 for me. I like some of the more tense scenes in OP, but I find it a bit dull outside of that and I’m not fond of either of the villains. And for having such a beautiful location to work with, OP is a remarkably drab looking film. Bond should go back to India at some point and really capture the vibrance it has to offer.
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