Star Wars (1977 - present)

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  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    I honestly think people tend to overthink Star Wars. Let's not forget that the series has been a (narrative) mess since its inception. Lucas' original film, which most of us agree is the best or at least second-best film in the series, was barely watchable at first but cut up and edited and overlayered with excellent voice work, great sound effects and a perfect score, so that, by good fortune, a simple but amusing Buck Rogers type of sci-fi B-flick resulted. The power of SW resided in the fact that apart from being happy nonsensical fun, it seemed to draw from awesome and as yet unexplored mythologies, leaving way more than just breadcrumbs for us to follow in subsequent instalments.

    Empire was both a blessing and a curse. The film suddenly propelled the series to the level of a "serious" and operatic space fantasy, reaching unprecedented dramatic and technical heights. The cute B-movie had now spawned a grand, A-level epic. The bar was raised... but probably above the comfort zone of the actual DNA of SW. And thus, every single film since released has had both ardent fans and angry detractors, starting with Jedi's "kidified" version of Han Solo, the Ewoks and -- wait -- Leia is Luke's sister, really?, and moving on to Jar Jar, teen Anakin facing sand issues, and more. The prequels were shunned by some, embraced by others. The sequels were too, as was everything in between.

    The point is, the SW universe is big, it's massive, it's got something for all of us, something we all embrace, whether it's the darker themes or just the escapist fun factor. That's why debates such as those of the last couple of pages are pointless. Reduced to its barest essentials, SW is good, easily digestible nonsense. Plot holes, "this makes no sense" moments, missed opportunities... are almost inevitable. We've all got our focus points; what some will gladly overlook, others pay extra attention to; what some want more of, others are happy to leave behind. To borrow from Obi-Wan: no-one in these discussions has the "high-ground". ;-) Remember also that we have tons of video games, EU novels, comics and more, and they can make a difference. The EU novels made me a reborn fan of the prequel trilogy, for example, seeing ideas come to life that aid tremendously in figuring out what Lucas wanted me to see. The Clone Wars (3D) TV series made me like Jedi Skywalker so much more, as well as Dooku, Ventress and others. The comics have helped as well. But a friend of mine is all about KOTOR, and how that game inspired his SW fandom and whatnot. We all work from different angles, from different darlings and from different expectations. SW is too big for one straight avenue; it's like a menu in a restaurant: you pick what you like, and I'll make my own choice thank you very much.

    Roll with it, that's the motto. Just roll with it. Or don't. I'm not saying you have to be happy with what they feed you, I'm saying what doesn't make you happy will appeal to someone else, and vice versa. Complain all you want: since Empire came out, SW has left that safe-zone where it can please pretty much everyone. Whatever direction taken next, it will always be greeted with thumbs-up and thumbs-down. Films that were "trashed" upon release (e.g. Ep. I, Ep. II) resurface many years later as guilty fan pleasures. Films that shattered BO records (e.g. Ep. VII) are critically re-evaluated a few years later as not being all that good considering what came after, and so on.

    And directors? Come one, people. George Lucas is Mister Star Wars, and we owe it all to him. He's also Mister Big Ideas. He's also a fine director -- THX-1138, American Grafitti, ... -- but others have done a better job directing his or other SW material, yes. That doesn't make him a total hack or a bad craftsman, though. His SW films were projects, trying for cutting-edge, family-friendly entertainment, much more than for Oscar-winning drama. He isn't a Stanley Kubrick, but his heart was always in it. Lucas never truly wanted to go dark with SW; he wanted kids to have a good time. Still, Abrams, Johnson, Edwards, Marquand, ... all brought something to the series. But in the end, it's not fair to apply auteur theory to these films. SW doesn't allow that. Again, it's a huge universe, getting a film made that enough of us like is hard enough as it is. Blame the director, producers, writers, ... all you want. If the latest film doesn't work, it's because it doesn't work for you, but it will work for others. A friend and I both agreed after the premiere of TROS that it was fan service upon fan service, dropping story arcs that were set-up with promise in the previous films while drawing out others that could've been cut a bit shorter. But, the geeks in us had had a great time, seeing all that big, loud, "oh, look who's back! Cool!" stuff play out. If this had been Nolan's sequel to Interstellar, we would have screamed bloody murder. But it's SW, it's a bag of potatoes crisps, it's candy, nothing more, nothing less. As long as SW can get us that sugar rush, hell yeah!

    The biggest mistake to make is to overthink SW.

    +1. Agreed with everything you said. I’m sure eventually I’ll come to enjoy the sequels the way others have; I went through a (short) period where I despised the prequels, but then learned just to roll with it, and have fun. Still have to play KOTOR though...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    @DarthDimi makes an excellent point.

    The original Star Wars will always be special because it was the first, but The Empire Strikes Back being as good as it turned out effectively immortalized the franchise. A bad first sequel would have stopped it right on its tracks, and an okay sequel might have helped squeeze out one more film but not inspire much beyond that. A beloved film with a sequel people often cite as the best of the franchise? After that, there's no stopping it, not even bad sequels/prequels.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2020 Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think a lot of them look back on the Lucas era with that kind of "you don't know what you had until it's gone" attitude.

    Which seems weird to me too because the Disney stuff is, to me, miles better than the films Lucas was making fifteen years ago. Less original, maybe, but still better.

    I remember watching Force Awakens the first time and, during the early scene where Fin and Poe are escaping in a Tie fighter, having a really weird sense that I'm watching a new Star Wars movie and am actually finding the characters engaging and likeable to the extent that I already care what happens to them, and that I'm watching an exciting action scene. Which was not a sensation I'd had through the previous three movies!

    I think the Disney sequels suffer from the same issues as the prequels. They’re just poor in quality, with ideas that are interesting in concept that just fall flat.

    I don't agree with that at all, no. As Craig said, the problem with the prequels is that they're atrociously directed, or even not actually directed at all. (It will be fascinating to see MacGregor play Obi Wan again under an actual director). The sequels are very well-directed, so the issues of the two are very different.
    And secondly they're not poor in quality at all, I don't know which films seem high in quality after watching those. Force Awakens in particular is a great blockbuster movie which hits high points all the way through, is funny and scary and emotional and exciting and everything it needs to be, and I maintain that it's a better film than the first Star Wars.

    They are poor in quality though. TFA was nothing much than retreading the exact plot points of “A New Hope” with some minor tweaks here and there. Nothing exactly original there, they played it safe. But to say that it’s better than the original Star Wars is a giant leap too far.

    It just is, though. Yes it's basically a remake, but there's not much it doesn't do better. It doesn't have Darth Vader which is a big loss of course, but otherwise... it's just a better film.
    That's no shame on Star Wars: like Dr No it was great at the time and it's an important film, and yes it's more original, but in terms of quality it was outshone and improved upon by what came later.
    “The Last Jedi” suffers from the same kind of dumb, illogical story aspects the Prequels are infamous for. Why go off an a tangent with Finn and Rose Tico to a casino planet, resulting in a B Story that doesn’t go anywhere? Why have the big confrontation with Snoke appear in the 2nd film, only to have him killed off just for the sake of “subverting expectations.” Why have Holdo just dismiss absolutely every single idea that Poe has? Why did Luke, the same Jedi who redeemed his father to the light, attempt to kill Kylo because of minor hints of his inner darkness? Why do Finn and Tico willingly go along with DJ, who they know will betray them, then act like surprised when they are betrayed? Why try to imply some love dynamic at the end between Finn and Tico?

    Well I don't defend TLJ, I think it's a very misjudged film as I said earlier.
    And don’t even get me started on the issues with TROS. You make like the sequels, but to suggest that they aren’t on the level of the prequels when they’ve divided the fanbase worse than the prequels ever did contradicts that entirely.

    I don't really listen to fanbases though, I don't think they speak with very level heads.
    RoS is loads of fun and miles above the prequels.

    I’m curious as to why you think TFA is better than A New Hope.

    I think it's just a slicker, better, more exciting, more emotional, and funnier film.
    I think characters like Luke, Leia, and Han have far better chemistry than the likes of Rey, Finn, and Poe,

    I don't. What can I say? They don't get much time to really talk to each other, their dialogue is famously terrible... I'm not saying it's a bad film at all, it's clearly not. But TFA is just a better one.
    Vader is a superior villain to Ren in every aspect,

    Yep.
    the cold, calculating presence of Tarkin is far more memorable than any of the bland Admirals/Captains of The First Order.

    I love Cushing, but actors alone don't make a film.
    Han Solo just doesn’t fit into the mentor role of Obi Wan in the first film

    Yes he does, it's in the film. He does it, and it's Ford at towards the end of his career rather than at the beginning before he'd got good, and he's amazing in it.
    Solo’s death had great impact, but that’s just about it really. His character arc in the original trilogy was downgraded to “deadbeat dad who walked out when things started to get tough with his son”

    It's not, no. You're just trying to phrase it in the worst possible way you can think of, which is silly.
    And again, even though it’s your opinion, I find TROS is just as bad as the prequels, possibly even worse considering how convoluted and ridiculous that film is. To force Palpatine into it was the biggest insult of all; essentially making the victory and redemption of Vader in ROTJ essentially meaningless.

    It's a film, it's just a film. It needs a baddie, and in a film like this you need the hero to face the grand evil wizard at the end.
    I don’t listen to fanbases either, but even you have to admit the way these films have divided the fanbase points to something that obviously went wrong in the making of the sequels. The Special Editions did just that, as did the Prequels. But the reaction to the sequel trilogy just seems bigger and louder, and I don’t know if it’s because of the “Left vs Right” culture wars debate, or the fact that Social Media plays a huge part in it, but it is there.

    I suspect the fanbase is probably divided over the original ones too.

    Well I completely disagree with you on the Force Awakens. I just don’t see how it’s superior to A New Hope.

    Well fine, leave it at that then.

    I actually checked out some other thoughts on this after chatting about it last night, and I found Mark Kermode's podcast where he ranks the SW films and ranks Force Awakens above Star Wars too, as does his podcast colleague, so at least I'm not alone! :)
    I honestly don't think it's a controversial viewpoint. If you strip out the nostalgia, as a movie on its own merits it just doesn't work quite as well.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2020 Posts: 14,861
    Honestly I don't really disagree with much of what you said. I prefer ANH to TFA, but I really like TFA a lot, and I think the performances from Isaac and Boyega were phenomenal, and Ridley was great; I don't agree that Hamill was necessarily better, from an acting perspective.

    I think Hamill is not very good in general, and to be honest I was bit confused by all the praise he got for TLJ because I saw an actor really struggling with the material. He just seemed to be doing that Harrison Ford impression he does a lot: pretending to be gruff and grumpy isn't the same as playing a character who is like that, and he just didn't convince for me at all. If he hadn't played Luke in the original films there's just no way they'd have cast him in that role in TLJ, he's not up to it.
    In a similar way to Alec Guinness being great for 'old' Obi Wan, but if his younger self had magically been around and available for the prequels he wouldn't really have been right for that role (except of course Guinness was always good! :) )

    If we're going to talk about the quality of the actors of the originals vs sequels I'd say the sequels have a better core line-up. Yes, you've got Ford in the first three and he pulls an awful lot of dead weight for the other two, although even he isn't fully formed as a star just yet- it's amazing how much stronger he is in the two sequels. Whereas in the sequel trilogy you've got Boyega, Ridley and Isaac, who are all properly good actors: Boyega in particular is great in TFA I think. And Isaac is a very successful film actor with good reason.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2020 Posts: 7,518
    Ehhh, “don’t overthink it” is a fine way to put an end to a discussion that’s fun to have. As a moderator on a discussion forum, wouldn’t you be more interested in fostering discussion? I don’t think our debates have been “pointless”, thanks; it’s fun to learn about the perspectives of others and defend our own points of view. I don’t necessarily think “plot holes are inevitable” is effective as a blanket defence of lazy filmmaking; many of the Star Wars films are great, we’re allowed to complain when things get lazy and unsatisfying. We’re allowed to be Star Wars fans and also have standards.

    On another note, I think it’s great to see fans of Star Wars on Instagram and other places embracing Hayden’s return with the Kenobi series; love ROTS and it’s largely because of him. Can’t wait to see what’s coming! Mostly excited for Kenobi and Rogue Squadron, and The Acolyte sounds like it could be cool too.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    Ehhh, “don’t overthink it” is a fine way to put an end to a discussion that’s fun to have.

    I wasn't trying to end a discussion, merely introducing yet another way of looking at things.
    As a moderator on a discussion forum, wouldn’t you be more interested in fostering discussion? I don’t think our debates have been “pointless”, thanks; it’s fun to learn about the perspectives of others and defend our own points of view.

    Didn't mean to insult anyone. If I came off that way, I apologize. I was merely suggesting that the SW universe is so incredibly diverse in so many ways, it's difficult to find two people who agree on most things. Sometimes people go at it defending their viewpoints like they're some objective truth when clearly, there's no such thing. Hence, "pointless". But you're right, the word itself was clumsily chosen and again, I apologize. Obviously, I do appreciate quality discussions on this forum. I never meant to say, "stop it!".
    I don’t necessarily think “plot holes are inevitable” is effective as a blanket defence of lazy filmmaking; many of the Star Wars films are great, we’re allowed to complain when things get lazy and unsatisfying. We’re allowed to be Star Wars fans and also have standards.

    Of course, we are. Have I claimed anything else?

    But I still believe that "lazy filmmaking" is what we're going to get. SW adventures throw a lot of things in the mix, but they're rarely going for waterproof story-telling. Once you start asking questions, you will tumble down one heluva rabbit hole. One of the reasons I enjoy reading so much SW EU is because hired authors like Luceno and Stover can sometimes clear things up with surprising elegance. Right now I'm reading the novelisation of Ep. III, simply because I wanted to sort a few things out. You see, I too have standards, I too care about good and tight narrative. But I'm also willing to concede some of that in favour of good spectacle and sweet fan service. And SW films have always structured their stories in such a way that there is some logic but at the same time tons of "???" moments. And I don't mind as long as they're not too problematic.
    On another note, I think it’s great to see fans of Star Wars on Instagram and other places embracing Hayden’s return with the Kenobi series; love ROTS and it’s largely because of him. Can’t wait to see what’s coming! Mostly excited for Kenobi and Rogue Squadron, and The Acolyte sounds like it could be cool too.

    Well, we certainly agree then! ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    The nostalgic factor among prequel defenders is pretty interesting. Sort of like how the movie HOOK has a giant fanbase that is 99.9% millennial, when previous generations pretty much dismissed the film as one of Spielberg's weakest efforts. I look forward to when the sequel trilogy has a fanbase as loud as the prequels once those fans grow up and spread their adoration. Disney would be wise to keep the sequel era characters in carbonite storage so that when the time comes seeing the return of those characters will be as big a deal as seeing the return of McGregor and Christensen.

    Hell, bring back Ben Solo from the dead and say it's the will of the Force. I don't typically care for characters returning from the dead as Darth Maul and Boba Fett were really just glorified henchmen, but seeing a resurrected Ben Solo? Intrigue me. It was very short sighted of them to kill him off when there could have been a lot of potential in seeing how characters react to a villain turning good. Anakin never had to face the consequences of his actions after his turn from Vader, but you could have easily done that with Ben Solo. Would Rey stand up for him? Would he try to integrate himself back to society? Would he just leave the galaxy feeling he doesn't belong? So much potential, but J.J. had to replay that ROTJ beat of a redemption being followed up by death.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Rest In Peace, Jeremy Bulloch. :(
    If it weren’t for the character he played in ESB, we wouldn’t have the brilliant show The Mandalorian we’re enjoying now. He injected so much mystery and intrigue into Star Wars with the character of Boba Fett.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2020 Posts: 23,105
    Just watched the last two episodes of Mando, my eyes welled up.
    Amazing show felt like being that kid again who watched the OG trilogy back in the 70"s and 80's. Just watched that last scene about ten times lol

    When Luke used the force to crush a Death Trooper I got full on Vader vibes.

    Don't miss the post credit scene. Wow!
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    Posts: 2,342
    Just watched the last two episodes of Mando, my eyes welled up. Amazing show felt like being that kid again who watched the OG trilogy back in the 70"s and 80's.
    When Luke used the force to crush a Death Trooper I got full on Vader vibes.

    Don't miss the post credit scene. Wow!

    Sounds great.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,105
    Just watched the last two episodes of Mando, my eyes welled up. Amazing show felt like being that kid again who watched the OG trilogy back in the 70"s and 80's.
    When Luke used the force to crush a Death Trooper I got full on Vader vibes.

    Don't miss the post credit scene. Wow!

    Sounds great.

    Star Wars should always capture the imagination that's when it is truly great. The penultimate episode had some great character moments.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,105
    Grogu reaction to Luke and then R2 is amazing.
  • Amazing finale. Don't want to even spoiler tag but just watch it!
  • Posts: 6,665
    Now THAT's the way to do nostalgia! Amazing show. Best SW "thing" since TESB, IMO.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    That final ep just made me cry!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Can’t wait to watch it; about six hours away for me!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That final ep just made me cry!

    Me too. Many tissues were harmed in the watching of that episode. Best single hour of non-theatrical content I have ever experienced.
  • I wasn’t too hot on this episode. It was good, I enjoyed it, but for the most part it felt like a video game. It was emotional, but not enough to get me to cry.
    I don’t know if it was the technology, but Luke looked very stiff. To the point where I thought he was an evil clone.
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    Posts: 2,342
    Great cgi.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2020 Posts: 17,687
    2Wint2Kidd wrote: »
    I wasn’t too hot on this episode. It was good, I enjoyed it, but for the most part it felt like a video game. It was emotional, but not enough to get me to cry.
    I don’t know if it was the technology, but Luke looked very stiff. To the point where I thought he was an evil clone.
    CGI de-aged Mark Hamill. Older than in ROTJ. It worked for me more than I would have ever thought.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2020 Posts: 23,105
    I had no issue with the CGI of Luke, I was just carried away with what was happening.
    There was some great pacing and tension building with the very credible threat,
    I guessed what was going to happen early on back in The Jedi episode, I totally loved it.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That final ep just made me cry!

    Me too. Many tissues were harmed in the watching of that episode. Best single hour of non-theatrical content I have ever experienced.

    Omg, reading this stuff is making my expectations very high
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That final ep just made me cry!

    Me too. Many tissues were harmed in the watching of that episode. Best single hour of non-theatrical content I have ever experienced.

    Omg, reading this stuff is making my expectations very high

    It's not that good. It's like Phantom Menace level good. For TV it's great.
  • Stick around after the credits too!
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    Posts: 2,342
    This episode is a good way to end the series but there's more to come.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I saw an image online that I assumed was badly photoshopped by a fan. I jumped ahead to the end just to check out the actual clip... ugh, how could anyone sanction that crap? It looked bad enough as a still, but once he started to talk or even just move his head it was even worse. Either recast or just don't use the character at all.
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    edited December 2020 Posts: 2,342
    I saw an image online that I assumed was badly photoshopped by a fan. I jumped ahead to the end just to check out the actual clip... ugh, how could anyone sanction that crap? It looked bad enough as a still, but once he started to talk or even just move his head it was even worse. Either recast or just don't use the character at all.

    Boba fett you mean ?

    Mark Hamill
    @HamillHimself
    14h
    Seen anything good on TV lately?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    I saw an image online that I assumed was badly photoshopped by a fan. I jumped ahead to the end just to check out the actual clip... ugh, how could anyone sanction that crap? It looked bad enough as a still, but once he started to talk or even just move his head it was even worse. Either recast or just don't use the character at all.

    Inclined to agree. It seems to me that people are so happy and surprised (good for them, honestly) about the character's actions in the proceeding scene that they're forgiving some very poor VFX work.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    It happens years after ROTJ, that's why he looks a little different.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,105
    Personally I could not care less what he looks like, I felt the episode and the great moments therein.
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