Questionable One Liners

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,055
    BT3366 wrote: »
    J.W. Pepper was certainly part of Mankiewicz’s way of trying to reverse the racist African American caricatures Fleming depicted in the LALD novel by introducing a caricature of Southern authority, and in that context he works as a buffoon.

    By TMWTGG he just felt utterly out of place tagging along with Bond, and his racist remarks over Asians just felt gross.

    Pepper also works as a character in LALD because all the other police officers are presented as being (more or less) competent, likeable and normal. He is the only caricature there.

    In my view Pepper was a very clever creation by the film makers, in some ways a necessary character, and it shows the amount of thought that went into LALD.

    In Golden Gun he is out of place.
    You're serious and not being sarcastic or having a go at us here? If so, it's an interesting take and one I don't think I've heard expressed before as most have no tolerance for Pepper in either film.

    The Pepper character in LALD just illustrates how far the series fell from the characters created by Fleming to the emphasis on jokes and cheap laughs. The frustrated Vegas cop in DAF works better because the time isn't taken to develop him into a broader caricature, just a guy who makes Bond look more clever and cool in comparison.

    The bottom line is that boat chase would've worked just fine without Pepper. We didn't need him to remind us that Bond is operating in the deep South of the U.S. They could throw in the wedding crashing and maybe one of the carboat crashes if they needed to maintain the jokes and it would've worked still but Pepper is too much.

    I think you'll be surprised by the amount of fans J.W. has on these boards. Personally I love his role in LALD, and Clifton plays him perfectly. Admittedly in TMWTGG he's out of place, but in LALD he's a small town sherriff living his power until some big-world events come racing through.
    It works on all fronts: as a counter for the perhaps perceived racism, as a funny distraction and as a reminder that Bonds is one side, J.W.'s another of the same world. I love his exhasperation when he shouts in disbelief: 'on who's side?!?!?!'

    I find the one-liners ni DAD by far the worst (admittedly, some are pretty good as well) with Jinx beeing the centre piece of abismal one-liners and dialogue. 'Yo mama'.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    What makes the “Yo mama” awful is not that line itself but the follow up “and she told me to tell you she’s very disappointed in you”. Doesn’t help that Berry was exchanging this bad dialogue with the plank of wood that was Rick Yune.
  • Posts: 278
    BT3366 wrote: »
    J.W. Pepper was certainly part of Mankiewicz’s way of trying to reverse the racist African American caricatures Fleming depicted in the LALD novel by introducing a caricature of Southern authority, and in that context he works as a buffoon.

    By TMWTGG he just felt utterly out of place tagging along with Bond, and his racist remarks over Asians just felt gross.

    Pepper also works as a character in LALD because all the other police officers are presented as being (more or less) competent, likeable and normal. He is the only caricature there.

    In my view Pepper was a very clever creation by the film makers, in some ways a necessary character, and it shows the amount of thought that went into LALD.

    In Golden Gun he is out of place.
    You're serious and not being sarcastic or having a go at us here? If so, it's an interesting take and one I don't think I've heard expressed before as most have no tolerance for Pepper in either film.

    The Pepper character in LALD just illustrates how far the series fell from the characters created by Fleming to the emphasis on jokes and cheap laughs. The frustrated Vegas cop in DAF works better because the time isn't taken to develop him into a broader caricature, just a guy who makes Bond look more clever and cool in comparison.

    The bottom line is that boat chase would've worked just fine without Pepper. We didn't need him to remind us that Bond is operating in the deep South of the U.S. They could throw in the wedding crashing and maybe one of the carboat crashes if they needed to maintain the jokes and it would've worked still but Pepper is too much.

    Are you upset about the character, or maybe the film laughing at the US Deep South?

    Personally, I don’t see anything worse than what is seen in many films and TV shows - such as Dukes of Hazard

  • Posts: 278
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Bond: "I always enjoyed learning a new tongue."
    Moneypenny: "You always were a cunning linguist, James."

    Jeez...

    Now that one is pretty near the knuckle! I have to say that that one went totally over my head though when I saw the film in the cinema as a thirteen year old in January 1998! It was my first Bond film in the cinema. ;))

    Makes sense! :D

    I don't know the general perspective about this one inhere, but I always HATED the “This never happened to the other fella” line. I can understand why they did it at the time, but watching it now, I don't think breaking the fourth wall was a good idea.

    Some commentators have said that that line was actually just a reference to Prince Charming holding the glass slipper belonging to Cinderella. Just like in the story, Lazenby Bond does end up holding Tracy's shoes as she speeds away in the car. I'm not at all sure if that's intended to be taken seriously but it seems to me that the scriptwriters' intent was obviously a reference to Sean Connery's Bond from the new Lazenby Bond, however veiled it might have been.

    OHMSS is full of references to Connery - opening credits, souvenirs in draw, Goldfinger tune, kilt, “same old James, but more so” etc etc

    I know they were trying to convince the audience they were watching Bond, but to me it comes across as lamenting Connery rather than looking to the future
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,055
    What makes the “Yo mama” awful is not that line itself but the follow up “and she told me to tell you she’s very disappointed in you”. Doesn’t help that Berry was exchanging this bad dialogue with the plank of wood that was Rick Yune.

    Oh the 'Yo mama' I think was utterly out of place and made no sense. But it's just one line in all of hers that I dispise. The name set up, 'I'll always be a jinx to you', them meeting (now there's a mouthfull') etc. etc. etc. Have you ever heard anyone in the real world have conversations even remotely hinting in this direction? I have no doubt all the worst of Tamahori's six-y/o-brain went into her character. And it's a pity, Halle is a fine actress, but not a soul on this planet could save it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    It’s pretty unfortunate that of all the movies Purvis & Wade are credited to its THAT one that is their only solo credit, because there’s a lot of questionable elements that wasn’t added by them.
  • Posts: 1,697
    Troy wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    J.W. Pepper was certainly part of Mankiewicz’s way of trying to reverse the racist African American caricatures Fleming depicted in the LALD novel by introducing a caricature of Southern authority, and in that context he works as a buffoon.

    By TMWTGG he just felt utterly out of place tagging along with Bond, and his racist remarks over Asians just felt gross.

    Pepper also works as a character in LALD because all the other police officers are presented as being (more or less) competent, likeable and normal. He is the only caricature there.

    In my view Pepper was a very clever creation by the film makers, in some ways a necessary character, and it shows the amount of thought that went into LALD.

    In Golden Gun he is out of place.
    You're serious and not being sarcastic or having a go at us here? If so, it's an interesting take and one I don't think I've heard expressed before as most have no tolerance for Pepper in either film.

    The Pepper character in LALD just illustrates how far the series fell from the characters created by Fleming to the emphasis on jokes and cheap laughs. The frustrated Vegas cop in DAF works better because the time isn't taken to develop him into a broader caricature, just a guy who makes Bond look more clever and cool in comparison.

    The bottom line is that boat chase would've worked just fine without Pepper. We didn't need him to remind us that Bond is operating in the deep South of the U.S. They could throw in the wedding crashing and maybe one of the carboat crashes if they needed to maintain the jokes and it would've worked still but Pepper is too much.

    Are you upset about the character, or maybe the film laughing at the US Deep South?

    Personally, I don’t see anything worse than what is seen in many films and TV shows - such as Dukes of Hazard

    Hardly upset, just not sure why so many are so accepting of such an unnecessary character who is little more than a poor stereotype who does nothing to advance the story. I'm not from the South, but it's still a silly way to present it in the Bond series, which is meant to be more classy. I want to be thrilled by the boat chase and not have it interrupted with the antics of a redneck sheriff.

    Dukes of Hazard was meant to be a comedy, a spoof of that type of world and expected. This is James Bond, why drag the series down with that type of baggage?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    Vehicle chases of that era weren't really emphasizing "thrills" like a lot of today's films do. They were purely seen as a lark more than anything else, so if you're looking for chase akin to the FAST AND FURIOUS films you're only going to be disappointed. The purpose of J.W. Pepper is really cut from the same cloth as other elements in the film in order to push off any perception of the film being racist. The villains being of African descent were rewritten by Mankiewicz to be much cleverer and a step ahead of Bond. Instead of having a stereotypical black boss like Mr. Big, we have Dr. Kananga who is shown to have similar tastes to Bond in terms of mannerisms and clothing. More gentlemanly than the big black scary guy who uses voodoo.

    J.W. Pepper was a hit in LALD back in 1973. My understanding is that black audiences got a big laugh out of seeing this Southern authority figure made a fool. Purely enjoyable in a schadenfreude way. Of course, I imagine anyone not coming from that cultural background would be more perplexed by Pepper's inclusion, but for America in 1973 it really meant something.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The early 70s seemed to have many comedy sheriffs, in many films.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    I used to assume LALD chase was just riffing SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT, yet that came four years later!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,055
    It’s pretty unfortunate that of all the movies Purvis & Wade are credited to its THAT one that is their only solo credit, because there’s a lot of questionable elements that wasn’t added by them.

    Well I've said it before, and it underlines my thinking, that P&W actually are pretty bad at dialogue.
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 7,341
    It’s pretty unfortunate that of all the movies Purvis & Wade are credited to its THAT one that is their only solo credit, because there’s a lot of questionable elements that wasn’t added by them.

    Well I've said it before, and it underlines my thinking, that P&W actually are pretty bad at dialogue.

    The habit of inventing character names simply to use them in embarrassing puns can at least only be attributed to them. It is a recurring theme in so many of their films. I admit I am curious to know what pay off they had planned with "Strawberry Fields" that we never got, presumably because of the writer's strike. Something to do with the Beatles song?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,055
    jobo wrote: »
    It’s pretty unfortunate that of all the movies Purvis & Wade are credited to its THAT one that is their only solo credit, because there’s a lot of questionable elements that wasn’t added by them.

    Well I've said it before, and it underlines my thinking, that P&W actually are pretty bad at dialogue.

    The habit of inventing character names simply to use them in embarrassing puns can at least only be attributed to them. It is a recurring theme in so many of their films. I admit I am curious to know what pay off they had planned with "Strawberry Fields" that we never got, presumably because of the writer's strike. Something to do with the Beatles song?

    Perhaps, or it was a link to the 'beatles without eamuffs'comment Sean made. In which case they might've wanted to reference more there. All in all, I hope their influence on Bond 25 is waning. Sorry, on Never Die Again Tomorrow. No, wait. No Time To Die.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 3,353
    I have the feeling that Guardian journalist Guy Lodge reads this forum and took inspiration from it:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/shortcuts/2019/nov/11/james-bond-10-most-unforgivable-puns-no-time-to-die

    Come on Guy, admit it!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I have the feeling that Guardian journalist Guy Lodge reads this forum and took inspiration from it:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/shortcuts/2019/nov/11/james-bond-10-most-unforgivable-puns-no-time-to-die

    Come on Guy, admit it!

    Most of those on there were the best! Though they did get #1 right on.
  • Max_The_ParrotMax_The_Parrot ATAC to St Cyril’s
    Posts: 2,345
    zebrafish wrote: »
    I have the feeling that Guardian journalist Guy Lodge reads this forum and took inspiration from it:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/shortcuts/2019/nov/11/james-bond-10-most-unforgivable-puns-no-time-to-die

    Come on Guy, admit it!

    Moonraker at number 2, I’ll take that! 😉👍
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,055
    There's truth in whay he says:

    4. “When one is in Egypt, one should delve deeply into its treasures” (The Spy Who Loved Me)
    Roger Moore’s 1977 outing really was an innuendo banquet; this simple but effective line is basically the only reason for Bond to do all that globetrotting.
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 1,595
    My contribution is that the vast majority of the Brosnan era's one-liners (including innuendo, that sort of banter) are "questionable" (at best).
  • Posts: 266
    My contribution is that the vast majority of the Brosnan era's one-liners (including innuendo, that sort of banter) are "questionable" (at best).

    I agree, DAD just takes it to the extreme. There is a lot of stuff in DAD i don't like (CGI surfing, Invisible Car) but i think the dialogue is what i don't like the most.

    GE is the only Brosnan film where i like his puns/one liners.

    I think the writing really let Pierce down after GE and he done the best with what he was given.
  • Posts: 2,366
    The purpose of J.W. Pepper is really cut from the same cloth as other elements in the film in order to push off any perception of the film being racist.

    Which didn't quite work, since Fleming at least had the prescience to ensure not that everyone in Mr. Big's organization was black--hence the Robber. And the film's climax arguably goes into more racist territory than Fleming's, what with Solitaire being chained up and offered to crazed black voodoo worshipers.
    The villains being of African descent were rewritten by Mankiewicz to be much cleverer and a step ahead of Bond.

    The villains were already a step ahead of Bond in the book though--that's one of the elements Mankiewicz kept from Fleming. Hence Bond being under surveillance all the way into Harlem and ambushed at the nightclub, hence Leiter's maiming and Solitaire's kidnapping.
    Instead of having a stereotypical black boss like Mr. Big, we have Dr. Kananga who is shown to have similar tastes to Bond in terms of mannerisms and clothing. More gentlemanly than the big black scary guy who uses voodoo.

    Kanaga isn't the one who references Benvenuto Cellini and discusses the problem of accidie though. That's Fleming's Mr. Big, who was more cultured than his cinematic reduction.
    J.W. Pepper was a hit in LALD back in 1973. My understanding is that black audiences got a big laugh out of seeing this Southern authority figure made a fool.

    Maybe, but the decision to bring him back in TMWTGG was not at the behest of black audiences but because the general (i.e., primarily white) audience found him funny and bizarrely likable in his buffoonishness, which is the real problem with the character. If the point was to criticize and mock racism, then the filmmakers erred in making J.W. such a broad caricature, because it suggests racism is found in outright buffoons like Pepper rather than in his less flamboyant colleagues. And that is simply false. The film laughs off racism as the preserve of outright buffoons--a comforting but again false message. A less over the top Pepper would have avoided that.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Sharky wrote: »
    My contribution is that the vast majority of the Brosnan era's one-liners (including innuendo, that sort of banter) are "questionable" (at best).

    I agree, DAD just takes it to the extreme. There is a lot of stuff in DAD i don't like (CGI surfing, Invisible Car) but i think the dialogue is what i don't like the most.

    GE is the only Brosnan film where i like his puns/one liners.

    I think the writing really let Pierce down after GE and he done the best with what he was given.

    Agree. Goldeneye still feels somewhat grounded in the post Brosnan era, despite him being the leading man in the film. I feel like after GE they dialled everything up to 11 and everything including the dialogue fell apart.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 3,561
    You will notice that once P&W come in the puns and one-liners become groaners. I always thought Connery's and Moore's one liners were more organic. P&W seem to shoe horn in the situation or character name. Like having someone called Christmas. You would think teenage Beavis and Butthead might come up with that one.

    The screenwriters for GE and TND handled the one-liners much better.
  • Posts: 7,341
    thedove wrote: »
    You will notice that once P&W come in the puns and one-liners become groaners. I always thought Connery's and Moore's one liners were more organic. P&W seem to shoe horn in the situation or character name. Like having someone called Christmas. You would think teenage Beavis and Butthead might come up with that one.

    The screenwriters for GE and TND handled the one-liners much better.


    I am still wondering what the intended one-liner for Strawberry Fields was...? :-/
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 3,561
    "My name is Strawberry Fields."

    "I was never a fan of the Beatles. But in your case I would make an exception."

    "Oh James."

    "How about I give you a plow and see how fertile your soil is?"

    ;)
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 9,619
    "Forever".

    webStrawberry_Fields_Forever_copy.jpg?v=1554858724
  • Posts: 1,697
    thedove wrote: »
    "My name is Strawberry Fields."

    "I was never a fan of the Beatles. But in your case I would make an exception."

    That would've made a nice callback to GF's "That's as bad as listening to the Beatles without earmuffs" line.

    I don't like it, it's too cute and something out of an earlier Bond film and doesn't translate well in the Craig era.
  • Posts: 7,341
    thedove wrote: »
    "My name is Strawberry Fields."

    "I was never a fan of the Beatles. But in your case I would make an exception."

    "Oh James."

    "How about I give you a plow and see how fertile your soil is?"

    ;)


    Haha. Good attempt ;))

    Beats the "stationary" line anyway...
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