The What if thread...M had been re-cast for CR 2006? page 60

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Okay that was a lively discussion. As always I come away with some new ideas and different viewpoints.

    Lets revisit 1977 and the classic that is TSWLM. Lots of choices were made here as the producers were only allowed to use the title and not anything from the novel. There were many brought in to the script process. Lets examine the choice they made with one of those scripts.

    It has been reported that in one version of the script Jaws met his maker at the end of the movie. I believe a furnace room brings him to his death. But he clearly dies in the script. Broccoli decided to go with a script where Jaws lives to fight another day and returns in MR.

    What if Jaws was killed off in TSWLM. What would this do to the character within this film. How would this change had impacted MR as their henchman would need to change. Would you assume Mr. Chang would be the henchman of Jaws? Or do you think the producers would create another henchman to battle Bond?

    In terms of the impact in TSWLM do you think audiences would be bummed his character died? Or would it had made for a more serious portrayal of a memorable baddie?

    What say you Mi6? What if Jaws had met his maker at the end of TSWLM?
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,532
    I've never been a fan of how Jaws was written in MR, so I would've been fine with it.
  • Posts: 12,243
    As silly as Jaws is in MR, I’m really glad he turned up again. Keeping him alive at the end of TSWLM was a nice game-changer for the series (recurring henchman), and he was really likable despite the fact I’d always root for Bond. The silly Jaws in MR has grown on me quite a bit I must admit, though I still prefer him in TSWLM. He does still get the awesome creepy scene where he stalks and nearly kills Manuela.
  • Posts: 1,879
    Jaws dying in TSWLM would've made a more favorable lasting impression. But once you had him survive that collapse of the Egyptian excavation there was really no going back. By the walking away from the car crash through the hut solidified that.

    What may have been a cool alternate scenario was to have Jaws show up on the Liparus, maybe to block Bond from planting the bomb on the control room with it ticking.

    I don't think Chang would've ever been an appropriate main henchman, so they'd have had to come up with something else instead of Jaws.

    In conclusion, I offer a question I don't know I've ever seen asked: Did Universal Studios, author Peter Benchley or anyone connected with the 1975 blockbuster Jaws object or attempt to sue over the name Jaws for the Bond character?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BT3366 wrote: »

    In conclusion, I offer a question I don't know I've ever seen asked: Did Universal Studios, author Peter Benchley or anyone connected with the 1975 blockbuster Jaws object or attempt to sue over the name Jaws for the Bond character?

    That would be futile. Jaws is a common word.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Yes the whole dynamic between Bond and Jaws took on a bit of Looney Tune vibe of Jaws surviving everything Bond threw at him. I suppose it's a nice change to have the henchman survive and return in another film.

    To me sometimes you can have too much of a good thing. I thought MR was too much and would have preferred to see him in one film. Although I don't think Chang has written would be a good henchman for Drax.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,890
    It alone would have improved MR.
  • Posts: 1,879
    BT3366 wrote: »

    In conclusion, I offer a question I don't know I've ever seen asked: Did Universal Studios, author Peter Benchley or anyone connected with the 1975 blockbuster Jaws object or attempt to sue over the name Jaws for the Bond character?

    That would be futile. Jaws is a common word.
    But we live in such a litigious society that everybody wants to profit as much as possible and we aren't just talking about the lower part of the mouth, but one associated with creatures with sharp teeth.

    Maybe because it was the '70s everybody was more mellow. I can see it more happening today.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Maybe they could have brought back Nick Nack instead.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,890
    Maybe they could have brought back Nick Nack instead.

    Imagine how the PTS free fall, skydiving sequence would have looked with him. 😏
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    talos7 wrote: »
    Maybe they could have brought back Nick Nack instead.

    Imagine how the PTS free fall, skydiving sequence would have looked with him. 😏

    Or him in the clown suit in Rio.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,890
    😁
  • Posts: 631
    I saw TSWLM in the cinema in 77 and I remember the audience cheering and clapping when Jaws swam away. He had survived so much up to that point in the movie, it seemed the best and most fitting ending for him.

    I can also even recall us (as schoolchildren back then) discussing whether he was called Jaws or not. You must bear in mind that, back then, we had no internet or dvds to watch films again, and most of us only watched a film once in the cinema. So there was often a bit of dispute at school as to what had actually happened in a film and what was misremembered, with no easy way to check. We didn’t really know back then if he was called Jaws or not. Some people were saying “he can’t be called Jaws, that’s a name from another film, they wouldn’t allow it.”
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    BT3366 wrote: »

    In conclusion, I offer a question I don't know I've ever seen asked: Did Universal Studios, author Peter Benchley or anyone connected with the 1975 blockbuster Jaws object or attempt to sue over the name Jaws for the Bond character?

    That would be futile. Jaws is a common word.

    It was a much less litigious world back then...and maybe "Jaws" was okay as a parody?

    By the time we get to Zorin, the lawyers have taken over.

    I would have liked Jaws left behind in TSWLM, even if he survived.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Now there is an interesting point @echo what if Jaws had lived but not returned in MR. To me the character in MR had lost whatever menace he had in TSWLM. Might have served MR better to have a more grounded henchman.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    It would have been better if he perished at the end of TSWLM, in all honesty.

    All the menace was completely sucked out of him in MR, and it became a joke, not a funny one at that. I know he is iconic, and rightfully so, but that is more to do with his first appearance than anything else.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    All right lets stick back in 1970's and with TSWLM. As there were lots of creative decisions that had to be made. I've heard that SPECTRE was plotted to be the villain of the film. SPECTRE with Blofeld being front and centre. It was rejected cause McClory threatened to shut down the production and tie it up in the courts. McClory himself was trying to get his TB remake up and running as well.

    Lets play, what if! What if Blofeld and SPECTRE had returned in TSWLM. Would have made the film better or worse? Who would you cast as Blofeld in this film? How fun would it be to see Roger's Bond battling SPECTRE.

    What say you Mi6...what if Blofeld and SPECTRE had returned for the TSWLM?
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    thedove wrote: »
    What say you Mi6...what if Blofeld and SPECTRE had returned for the TSWLM?


    Pros: as you stated it would be fun to see Moore's Bond battling SPECTRE. Also if it still included Anya's reference to Tracy and Bond finally executing Blofeld it would've brought some much needed closure to the events of OHMSS.

    Cons: If Blofeld and SPECTRE had been the villains in TSWLM it would've made the 1977 Bond film even more of a clone of YOLT than it already is as this video so aptly illustrates:


  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    echo wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’m glad it didn’t happen personally. I think LALD is an excellent novel, but since much of it had already been adapted via the previous LALD film and LTK, I’m glad they went in a more original direction with QOS (which has nothing in common with the Fleming story). I’m interested in hyper-faithful Fleming adaptations of all the novels at some point, but that seems more likely to happen via a series on Netflix or something than the EON films. If given the opportunity for Craig to have done 5 standalones instead of a somewhat-connected continuity, I might take it, though I do love all of his first 3 as they are.

    This is where I come down, too.

    LALD has been adapted more wholly than most of the novels, across several films. There are bits and pieces left, but not enough in my mind to justify rehashing the "been there, done that" aspects of the story (Felix's maiming, etc.).

    DAF also falls into this category of "mostly adapted."

    So:

    "Faithfully adapted": DN, FRWL, GF, TB, OHMSS, FYEO, R, TPOAL, TLD, CR

    "Mostly adapted": DAF, LALD, 0iNY

    "Half-adapted": MR, YOLT, TMWTGG, THR

    "Never adapted": FAVTAK, QoS, OP

    There has been some "crypto-adaptation" of the "half-adapted" categories (namely, GE, DAD, and SF), but they could still go back to the original Fleming stories.

    If Eon wants to come out blazing with Fleming and the next actor in B26, I still think they should look to exactly what they did with CR and do MR.

    Yes please. With a different title mind.
  • Posts: 1,879
    As the Prince said, it would be fun to see Moore Bond against SPECTRE. But as he also mentioned it would've been so close to YOLT. I wonder just how much was changed. Anybody seen the script with SPECTRE and Blofeld references? Would there've been a reference back to DAF or would the Tracy death have been referred to as Anya made mention of it earlier? Could've been interesting. Also the original angle of having a new, younger group of terrorists forming a new SPECTRE, but the series wasn't at that point then it is now as far as storyline like that.

    The shark pool thing would've been like a repeat of the piranha pool, for example. Given I find Stromberg the weakest villain in the series and Blofeld is Blofeld, I would've preferred that I guess.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Yes I recall Richard Maibaum referring to that in an article. That these groups of young idealists come into SPECTRE HQ and they kick Blofeld and crew out. Blofeld asked them how much they were looking for and their reply was "We don't want money, we want a new start to the world." Very radical and Cubby felt it was too political.

    I haven't seen a Blofeld script @BT3366 but knowing the members of this forum someone will chime in with an informed opinion. I agree with your assessment of Stromberg. He doesn't really do much after killing the professors and the secretary. Not much colour to him so to speak. Maybe they merely planted Stromberg in for Blofeld? Cause Blofeld by this time would have been a more established villain.

    Who would the producers cast as Blofeld? We would have had tough Blofeld, effeminate Blofeld and puny Blofeld. LOL!
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    thedove wrote: »
    I haven't seen a Blofeld script @BT3366 but knowing the members of this forum someone will chime in with an informed opinion. I agree with your assessment of Stromberg. He doesn't really do much after killing the professors and the secretary. Not much colour to him so to speak. Maybe they merely planted Stromberg in for Blofeld? Cause Blofeld by this time would have been a more established villain.

    According to Steven Jay Rubin's book The James Bond Films, Stromberg had been called Stavros in an earlier script before they had to remove all SPECTRE references. Would Stavros have been revealed to actually be Ernst Stavros Blofeld I'm not sure about.
    thedove wrote: »
    Who would the producers cast as Blofeld? We would have had tough Blofeld, effeminate Blofeld and puny Blofeld. LOL!

    I figure Jurgens would've been cast as TSWLM's main villain regardless if he had been called Blofeld, Stavros or Stromberg. I've also read that James Mason was considered for the role which would've been interesting since he played Captain Nemo in 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea 23 years earlier.

  • Posts: 2,887
    The problem is that no one since Rubin has seen the Blofeld scripts of TSWLM (I'm not even sure if Rubin saw full drafts), so we only have very general ideas of how the character might have been used (Blofeld and Spectre were also in an early treatment of Octopussy that sounds equally enticing).

    What I'm most curious about is how the various Blofeld drafts dealt with the unfinished personal business between Bond and Blofeld. This might have been side-stepped in the version where Blofeld is kicked out by the new-Guard Spectre crew, and it might have been dodged in the "Stavros" version. I'm suprised no one has written a book on all the various scripts and treatments of TSWLM, considering all the notable writers who worked on it: Maibaum, Stirling Silliphant, John Landis, Ronald Hardy, Anthony Burgess, Derek Marlowe, Gerry Anderson, and Tom Mankiewicz!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    BT3366 wrote: »
    As the Prince said, it would be fun to see Moore Bond against SPECTRE. But as he also mentioned it would've been so close to YOLT. I wonder just how much was changed. Anybody seen the script with SPECTRE and Blofeld references? Would there've been a reference back to DAF or would the Tracy death have been referred to as Anya made mention of it earlier? Could've been interesting. Also the original angle of having a new, younger group of terrorists forming a new SPECTRE, but the series wasn't at that point then it is now as far as storyline like that.

    The shark pool thing would've been like a repeat of the piranha pool, for example. Given I find Stromberg the weakest villain in the series and Blofeld is Blofeld, I would've preferred that I guess.

    Stromberg the weakest villain in the series??? Ha ha ha. He’s a great villain. All the weakest villains exist in the Brosnan era (bar Alec Trevellyn).
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    I don't find Stromberg particularly memorable either. It's hard to be threatened by a guy who looks like he's missed his afternoon nap. Due to the similarities between Spy and Moonraker, I've always considered that Drax was a better version of Stromberg. He's far more interesting to me.

    To answer the topic question - had the script remained relatively the same, I think it would have worked just fine. The plot is basically You Only Live Twice anyways, so it fits right in with the cinematic Blofeld.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Ryan wrote: »
    I don't find Stromberg particularly memorable either. It's hard to be threatened by a guy who looks like he's missed his afternoon nap. Due to the similarities between Spy and Moonraker, I've always considered that Drax was a better version of Stromberg. He's far more interesting to me.

    +1

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    The striking thing about Stromberg is that he is an overall calm and composed villain. He never raises his voice much, is articulate and polite. Killing accomplices is a necessary evil for him that he soberly treats like everyday business. He even has a soft spot for classical music to make it all more bearable.

    He’s a strong Bond villain.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Seems Stromberg has polarized the fan base. I find him bland and very uninteresting. Though I applaud the film makers for giving him webbed hands.

    I hadn't thought of the line Anya giving to Bond in Kalba's club. It would have more poignancy then it does. I think having the villain to be named Stravos and then revealing him to be Blofeld smacks a little bit like DAF with Willard Whyte.

    I think the appearance of Blofeld in Spy would have increased the enjoyment of the film for me and made Roger's films feel closer to the Connery/Lazenby portrayal which I don't think is a bad thing.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Okay enough with the seventies! Lets jump to the modern era. SF had the fans back with Bond earning over $1,000,000,000 at the box office. Critics and fans alike heralded it and brought Bond back from a misstep in QOS.

    The producers when casting the movie had an interesting casting choice as the character of Kincaid seemed to be written for a certain Scotsman in mind. Yes it was rumoured that Sean Connery was thought of when the film was written. The producers cast Albert Finney, another legend, in the role. It went on to be his last on film. But lets have some fun and speculate on Sir Sean Connery playing the role of Kincaid.

    What if the producers had cast Connery as Kincaid? Would it be too "cute" to cast him? Would his presence enhance or detract from the film? What say you Mi6, what if Sean Connery had played Kincaid in SF?
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    No I don't think it would have worked and would have well and truly taken you out of the film.

    Going with Finney was a smart move, great performance and makes that moment of the film even more memorable.
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