What do you want from Billie Eilish's NTTD's title song?

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Comments

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I feel like at least 90 percent of the response to this news - both in this thread and elsewhere - can be accurately responded to with: "ok boomer."

    :P
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,112
    How did we go from Shirely Bassey and Paul Macartney to Billie Eilish?
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,279
    Burgess wrote: »
    I think the moral to take away from all this is that young people can be disrespectful of the past and old people can be dismissive of the present.

    In the end, we all want a film, and particularly, a title song for which we can be proud. Whether that’s achieved through Billie Eilish or Shirley Bassey doesn’t matter to me. If the series is to survive another sixty years then a balance needs to be found between tradition and trend. The series continually needs new fans, or it risks becoming outdated and outpaced. That doesn’t mean Bond’s illustrious past can’t be or shouldn’t be honored too.

    We as fans also have to accept that we will not like every creative decision that EON makes. EON understands that not every creative decision they make turns out to be good. That’s the nature of art. But we should all act in good faith and give every Bond film a fair assessment on its own merits.

    I agree with some of this. I'm actually not bothered if Billie is doing the song - as long as its a decent song. If you think back to Nancy, Lulu, etc. the Bond films have often gone for young, hip, trendy female singers. It is a good way of bringing in the younger audience and new fans, like you said.

    My only concern is her current backlog of material. It sounds very dreary and depressing, or slightly odd, and not very Bond sounding at all. If we still get another decent Bond song, then who cares what else she has done in the past, but going on what she has produced, my fear is we get another weird, crap song like AWTD or DAD.

    I hope I'm proved spectacularly wrong.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    How did we go from Shirely Bassey and Paul Macartney to Billie Eilish?

    You got old, that’s how.
  • Posts: 309
    How did we go from Shirely Bassey and Paul Macartney to Billie Eilish?

    Five decades happened.

  • Posts: 3,279
    How did we go from Shirely Bassey and Paul Macartney to Billie Eilish?

    You got old, that’s how.

    :))
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 6,677
    Great post, @Shardlake. It mirrors my own feelings. Now that you've said it all, personally I don't have anything more to say about it. Well done, my friend.

    Except...
    How did we go from Shirely Bassey and Paul Macartney to Billie Eilish?

    Paul McCartney (right way to spell it, btw), likes Billie Eilish. I'm a Macca fan, so I'll trust him ;) Let's see.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,571
    How did we go from Shirely Bassey and Paul Macartney to Billie Eilish?

    You got old, that’s how.

    Where's the like button?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    That bafflement some have over today’s artists? The same bafflement many oldsters had over the Beatles in the 60s. Lest we forget Connery Bond’s diss in GOLDFINGER! I’m sure if somebody gave him a sample of Eilish today he’d crap is pants, or maybe he still would without listening either way.
  • Posts: 309
    Burgess wrote: »
    I think the moral to take away from all this is that young people can be disrespectful of the past and old people can be dismissive of the present.

    In the end, we all want a film, and particularly, a title song for which we can be proud. Whether that’s achieved through Billie Eilish or Shirley Bassey doesn’t matter to me. If the series is to survive another sixty years then a balance needs to be found between tradition and trend. The series continually needs new fans, or it risks becoming outdated and outpaced. That doesn’t mean Bond’s illustrious past can’t be or shouldn’t be honored too.

    We as fans also have to accept that we will not like every creative decision that EON makes. EON understands that not every creative decision they make turns out to be good. That’s the nature of art. But we should all act in good faith and give every Bond film a fair assessment on its own merits.

    I agree with some of this. I'm actually not bothered if Billie is doing the song - as long as its a decent song. If you think back to Nancy, Lulu, etc. the Bond films have often gone for young, hip, trendy female singers. It is a good way of bringing in the younger audience and new fans, like you said.

    My only concern is her current backlog of material. It sounds very dreary and depressing, or slightly odd, and not very Bond sounding at all. If we still get another decent Bond song, then who cares what else she has done in the past, but going on what she has produced, my fear is we get another weird, crap song like AWTD or DAD.

    I hope I'm proved spectacularly wrong.

    Fair point. If it works, great! If it doesn’t, there’s always next time. But, in that, we have to understand that there are people who hate even the most popular songs. So, taste plays a huge role in these things, and not simply artistic merit.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome.
  • Posts: 3,279
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    matt_u wrote: »
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome.

    If Billie Eilish delivers the equivalent to “Die Another Day”, I will genuinely be excited. I actually mean that too. No sarcasm. I love it when an artist metaphorically splashes cold water at the franchise like that, “A View to a Kill”, “Live and Let Die”, songs that broke perceptions of what a Bond song could be.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    matt_u wrote: »
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome.

    I love it when an artist metaphorically splashes cold water at the franchise like that, “A View to a Kill”, “Live and Let Die”, songs that broke perceptions of what a Bond song could be.

    +1.

    And I think that's gonna be the case this time around. Let's keep in mind Fukunaga's words: a fresh new perspective.
  • Posts: 309
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,894
    patb wrote: »
    Well, pop and rock are dying art forms. I think the line up at Glastonbury this year - a 77 year old guy who wrote a classic Bond song in 73!! (and the last few) really says it all. It's churlish not to say that there isn't talent out their but the pool of talent gets smaller and smaller every year. Previous threads have pointed out how many great singers could have produced classic Bond themes in the 80s. (Just think how fantastic it would be to hear George Michael sing a Bond song - what a voice).

    So to the present. ,there are few singers with the traditional power and a sense of menace that is required IMHO for a classic Bond song. BE reminds me of Sheryl Crowe re an attempt to bring in someone big but not right for the job. No argument she can sing but does it fit with the Bond "sound" if that makes sense. Given the choice, Paloma Faith would have been a good choice but it gets harder and harder with each Bond movie.

    You know something, I have never thought of George Michael for a Bond title track. But actually, yes, I think he could have done it.

    Bryan Ferry absolutely should have done one at some point too.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,279
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an accurate adaptation of a card gambling scene at Blades with M, to find out if a person is cheating.

    Whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story. Hell, even some of the dialogue has been lifted from the pages. I'd go as far as saying its as faithful to Fleming as FRWL, Dr. No or OHMSS is.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.
  • Posts: 309
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

  • Posts: 9,774
    The issue here is looking at Craig's Tenure

    You know my Name was fantastic might even be my favorite bond theme of all time (it's a tight battle between this and live and let die)

    Another Way to Die was in my opinion still good but not as good as YKMN

    Skyfall was just ok in my honored opinion I do still listen to it occasionally

    Writing's on the Wall was bad like really Bad

    and after listening to a bunch of Billie Eilish I have not found a single song I liked...


    Now could she knock something out of the park and pull out a Rock number that has Rush influences... I am sure anything is possible... do I I think that will happen... NOPE


    so Sadly much like I was with Die Another Day I fear the days of Fleming titles and Rock title songs are in the past.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,279
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    Somewhere you could even include the short story from AVTAK, which has still not been used yet either, but let's not get greedy. We could save that for another film, eh? ;)

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,333
    matt_u wrote: »
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome.

    If Billie Eilish delivers the equivalent to “Die Another Day”, I will genuinely be excited. I actually mean that too. No sarcasm. I love it when an artist metaphorically splashes cold water at the franchise like that, “A View to a Kill”, “Live and Let Die”, songs that broke perceptions of what a Bond song could be.
    In what way did A View to a Kill or Live & Let Die splash cold water on the franchise, metaphorically or otherwise? What parallel universe do you hail from, sir? Granted, both compositions were quite rocky compared to the customary torch-type ballads that had gone before them and might have been slightly atypical, but I fail to see how either song was considered revolutionary or counterculture at the time. I bought both upon their initial releases and never thought for a second that they were shaking it up. Getting Gary Newman, Ultravox or the Human League in the 80s might have been considered more unconventional at the time. Most certainly getting Yes, Genesis, Led Zep or possibly even T. Rex involved in the 70s would've certainly broken perceptions. However, both McCartney and DD just did what was expected of them and delivered two great Bond songs that distinguish themselves from the more MOTR fair of Barry, Hamlisch and Conti. In fact, McCartney is on record as saying he was simply trying to outdo Barry with the big orchestration sound and take it up a notch. And Duran Duran were also very respectful of John Barry by including him in the production of their song. Both these songs sounded like they belonged in a James Bond movie when they were first released, despite what you might want to believe. I'm willing to concede to your DAD, though, as that's just a pile of techno doo-doo. Sigmund Freud analyze that.
  • Posts: 309
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    All I can say is my expectations are pretty low going in to this Bond film, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised when I watch the film.

    With the exception of the news of Zimmer doing the score, there hasn't been much that has excited me with this film.

    1) The trailer felt like this was going to be SPECTRE 2. More of the same from where we last left off. Great news if you loved SP, bad news if you were hoping for another CR.

    2) The interviews in Empire magazine with some of the actors sound just like every Bond film post Cubby - strong females up against Bond, personal angst for Bond (again), etc.

    3) The choice of artist for the song. I bet right here, right now, that this song will rival QoS and DAD as one of the worst songs of the franchise. The writings on the wall...

    4) I think its fairly obvious now that the unused Fleming books are still being untouched and ignored, instead opting for P&W to give us yet another `original' story that will rehash everything we've seen in the Brosnan and Craig era - lots of personal angst and female power struggles. Throw in the Aston Martin DB5 and retro gadgets for good measure.

    A reboot with a new actor can't come quick enough for me. Its the one time EON throw out all the stops and try to revert back to basics again.

    Like I said, my expectations are fairly low for this film, so I may be in for a surprise...

    What are the unused Fleming novels that you’re referencing?

    I thought everyone knew what they were by now. Ok, here goes -

    DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG

    Okay. Here goes:

    TMWTTG has already been adapted in a film of the same name, and in License To Kill and GoldenEye. LTK and GE are films in which the villain is Bond’s mirror self, like Scaramanga in TMWTGG.

    The best parts of Moonraker were adapted in GoldenEye and Die Another Day. Both films feature a “foreign” villain pretending to be a British patriot or hero.

    A direct adaption of The Spy Who Loved Me won’t be adapted per Fleming’s request. Plus, it’s single setting and lower stakes are not the ripest for an adaption, even if it is a good novel.

    “In 1977 the title was used for the tenth film in the Eon Productions series. It was the third to star Roger Moore as British Secret Service agent Commander James Bond. Although Fleming had insisted that no film should contain anything of the plot of the novel, the steel-toothed character of Horror was included, although under the name Jaws.” - Wikipedia

    The most cinematic parts of You Only Live Twice we’re already adapted in a film of the same name. The garden of death sequence works in the book because you’re able to get into Bond’s head. As a straight adaption to film, I don’t think it would work. Also, how do we know that it doesn’t feature in NTTD. We’ll see again, Diamonds Are Forever was adapted into a film of the same name. It features diamond smuggling and the Mob. What else is there?

    Ok, here goes -

    TMWTGG could be done again (properly), including the brainwashed opening, Bond going undercover as Mark Hazard, meeting the villain at a brothel in Jamaica, acting as a bodyguard before being discovered, on a train ride out among the mangrove swamps and seeing a blonde girl tied to the tracks, which leads to the shootout. All that bears only a slight resemblance to LTK, and heaven knows Bond scripts are recycled constantly, with a thinly changed veneer.

    The best part of MR was adapted in GE and DAD? Because of a villain posing as a UK guy? You serious? That alone was the best part of MR? :))

    The game card at Blades? That alone would be worth using, and p!sses all over anything in DAD. Also, the Dover cliff landslide? The car chase?

    TSWLM - I'm sure legal wranglings could be done now. Fleming has been dead for nearly 60 years. And I'd love to see a scene where Bond comes into a Motel and rescues Viv Michel from 2 gangsters. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7 foot Jaws and his steel nashers.

    YOLT - wrong again. Hardly anything from the novel was used (certainly not the best bits). Fans have been clamouring for years for a Shatterhand showdown in the Garden of Death.

    DAF - so the entire book is summarised with diamond smuggling and the mob? That's it? That's the extent of your knowledge of that book? No car chase and then kidnap? No Spectreville Western ghost town? No train chase? No Brooklyn stomping? No horse race? No mud baths?

    There are key scenes, moments, and entire plots that could be worked into at least 3 films with this unused material, and which is still far superior to anything EON have produced since Cubby passed away.


    Anyway, we've digressed slightly. Back on topic... B-)

    What you described are not plots. They’re scenes, sequences, motifs and set pieces. Interesting bits that could be used but those aren’t stories. They don’t have a beginning, middle or end. There’s no character development or character motivation. But as you said we “digressed.”


    And I'm fine with that. I'd take set pieces and scenes as the main basis and anchor for a new script (ala TLD and LTK), any day over the crap P&W have served up over the years.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    You’ve totally lost me then because isn’t that what P & W already do? We can debate the quality of their work but, given that every (major) Bond title has been adapted, that’s all anyone can do.

    Really? What have P&W accurately adapted, other than CR? Name me one faithfully adapted Fleming scene?

    And when I say faithfully adapted, as an example I mean the way Maibaum adapted TLD, or the scenes from LALD with Felix being eaten, or Bond getting dragged over corals, or Bond in a shootout in the sea worm factory, etc. etc.

    These are properly, easily identifiable, recognisable, fully adapted scenes, taken straight out of the books. None of that has been done by P&W.

    Well we can debate the faithfulness of the scenes you pointed out because Felix being eaten by sharks or (I’m assuming) the immediate post title sequence in TLD are not strict translations. They’re both adapted to fit the story that EON wanted to tell. The same can be said about P & W using Franz Oberhauser as an exploration of Bond’s past, or Gustav Graves cheating at fencing as a nod to Moonraker. But I think I see your point even though I disagree with it.

    P&W have done nods. There I agree with you. Referencing a character is a nice nod too. But that is as far as it goes.

    A ridiculous OTT sword fight is by no means an adaptation of a card gambling scene, whereas Bond sent on a mission in Berlin to shoot a KGB sniper, who ends up being a woman cellist he fancies, deliberately misses, all from a bedroom window, IS a straight adaptation, even though it also then adapts to fit in to a wider story.

    There are no grey areas, nods or mild interpretations there. It is a straight forward, true adaptation, so I'm not sure what you disagree with.

    The original discussion was whether or not unused collections of scenes and set pieces are enough to make a movie. You asserted that there are whole books untouched or unadapted by EON. That claim then turned into a list of scenes, set pieces and motifs that haven’t been faithfully adapted. Then you claimed that three films could easily be made of these unused bits. I disagree with all of that.

    Bond 26 - you could have a screenplay incorporating huge chunks of properly adapted scenes and storylines from both MR and DAF, exhausting both novels absolutely to death. These 2 books are fairly ripe for picking lots of scenes and characters from, involving games of cards at Blades, gangsters, horse races, mud baths, gun shoot outs at drive-ins, car chases, crashes, captures and tortures (features in both books), Western ghost towns, etc. etc. There is at least as much material there as there was from the novel CR.

    Bond 27 is then released 2 years later, incorporating TSWLM and YOLT, again exhausting both novels absolutely to death. The film starts with Bond meeting Viv Michel at a motel (held hostage by 2 gangsters). The film ends with an amnesia ridden Bond setting sail off a Japanese island, not knowing who he is.

    Bond 28 then follows on where the last one left off, with a properly adapted version of TMWTGG, including the brainwashed confrontation opening, before Bond redeems himself and goes off to Jamaica under the guise of Mark Hazard, to find his target.

    There is enough basis there for each film, more than the short adapted story of TLD or OP. So again, which bit do you disagree with?

    Saying that something can be done doesn’t mean it can. Anything can be true in a hypothetical. This is all conjecture until pen is put to paper. Again, your summary is not a story. You collect together incident’s that have no plot, arc, motivation or theme.

  • Posts: 3,279
    bondsum wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome.

    If Billie Eilish delivers the equivalent to “Die Another Day”, I will genuinely be excited. I actually mean that too. No sarcasm. I love it when an artist metaphorically splashes cold water at the franchise like that, “A View to a Kill”, “Live and Let Die”, songs that broke perceptions of what a Bond song could be.
    In what way did A View to a Kill or Live & Let Die splash cold water on the franchise, metaphorically or otherwise? What parallel universe do you hail from, sir? Granted, both compositions were quite rocky compared to the customary torch-type ballads that had gone before them and might have been slightly atypical, but I fail to see how either song was considered revolutionary or counterculture at the time. I bought both upon their initial releases and never thought for a second that they were shaking it up. Getting Gary Newman, Ultravox or the Human League in the 80s might have been considered more unconventional at the time. Most certainly getting Yes, Genesis, Led Zep or possibly even T. Rex involved in the 70s would've certainly broken perceptions. However, both McCartney and DD just did what was expected of them and delivered two great Bond songs that distinguish themselves from the more MOTR fair of Barry, Hamlisch and Conti. In fact, McCartney is on record as saying he was simply trying to outdo Barry with the big orchestration sound and take it up a notch. And Duran Duran were also very respectful of John Barry by including him in the production of their song. Both these songs sounded like they belonged in a James Bond movie when they were first released, despite what you might want to believe. I'm willing to concede to your DAD, though, as that's just a pile of techno doo-doo. Sigmund Freud analyze that.

    100% spot on! Well said!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited January 2020 Posts: 8,025
    bondsum wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    After the last two classic ballads made under Mendes control a more experimental and "alternative" take is certainly welcome.

    If Billie Eilish delivers the equivalent to “Die Another Day”, I will genuinely be excited. I actually mean that too. No sarcasm. I love it when an artist metaphorically splashes cold water at the franchise like that, “A View to a Kill”, “Live and Let Die”, songs that broke perceptions of what a Bond song could be.
    In what way did A View to a Kill or Live & Let Die splash cold water on the franchise, metaphorically or otherwise? What parallel universe do you hail from, sir? Granted, both compositions were quite rocky compared to the customary torch-type ballads that had gone before them and might have been slightly atypical, but I fail to see how either song was considered revolutionary or counterculture at the time. I bought both upon their initial releases and never thought for a second that they were shaking it up. Getting Gary Newman, Ultravox or the Human League in the 80s might have been considered more unconventional at the time. Most certainly getting Yes, Genesis, Led Zep or possibly even T. Rex involved in the 70s would've certainly broken perceptions. However, both McCartney and DD just did what was expected of them and delivered two great Bond songs that distinguish themselves from the more MOTR fair of Barry, Hamlisch and Conti. In fact, McCartney is on record as saying he was simply trying to outdo Barry with the big orchestration sound and take it up a notch. And Duran Duran were also very respectful of John Barry by including him in the production of their song. Both these songs sounded like they belonged in a James Bond movie when they were first released, despite what you might want to believe. I'm willing to concede to your DAD, though, as that's just a pile of techno doo-doo. Sigmund Freud analyze that.

    I considered a tune like AVTAK as such because prior to that we mainly had a string of ballad songs starting with “Nobody Does it Better”, and especially coming after the more tame “All Time High” it DOES sound revolutionary, at least to my ears.
  • Posts: 3,279
    Risico007 wrote: »
    The issue here is looking at Craig's Tenure

    You know my Name was fantastic might even be my favorite bond theme of all time (it's a tight battle between this and live and let die)

    Another Way to Die was in my opinion still good but not as good as YKMN

    Skyfall was just ok in my honored opinion I do still listen to it occasionally

    Writing's on the Wall was bad like really Bad

    and after listening to a bunch of Billie Eilish I have not found a single song I liked...


    Now could she knock something out of the park and pull out a Rock number that has Rush influences... I am sure anything is possible... do I I think that will happen... NOPE


    so Sadly much like I was with Die Another Day I fear the days of Fleming titles and Rock title songs are in the past.

    Sadly I agree. Liam Gallagher is a man of the past, yet also a man in the present too, appealing to a younger demographic. I would have been thrilled had he been chosen to do a rock Bond song. Even Artic Monkeys would do.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Rock is dead. A DJ dropping beats gets people hyped a lot more these days than an aging rocker that needs a hip replacement.
  • Posts: 4,602
    As with the SS choice, these discussion always leak out into the wider realm of the state of current pop with middle aged men weaping into their pint of Doombar and a current tallent pool so shallow that it wouldn't drown a mouse. The reference to Sir Paul and DD are very interesting. Sir Paul was a Beatle. End of story. Even if you don't like their songs, you have to be music blind not to acknowledge their (and his) contribution to the art form. Then we move on to the 80s (hard for me to be rational) but, it should be pointed out that we were still in the era of a pop band and still within an era of traditional musicality where, for example, a bass player can be appreciated for their individual skills and talent in addition to their contribution to a band (John Taylor) plus these guys grew up with the likes of Beatles and big band as influences. We should not be surprised that DD did such a good job at combining their own sound with the traditional Bond "vibe".

    Another point to be made is longevity and helping to keep the Bond tradtion alive. Sir Paul may include LALD in his set this year at Glastobury (fingers crossed) and DD regularly perform AVTAK live (very well IMHO). This obviously is great for Bond fans new and old. Now, to those fans of current pop and those desperate to give present talent a fair hearing: does anyone really think that BE will be performing live at full gigs in 35 years time? and can Sheena Easton fill the O2? flavour of the month is all very well ....until next month. Talent lasts.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 4,043
    Risico007 wrote: »
    The issue here is looking at Craig's Tenure

    You know my Name was fantastic might even be my favorite bond theme of all time (it's a tight battle between this and live and let die)

    Another Way to Die was in my opinion still good but not as good as YKMN

    Skyfall was just ok in my honored opinion I do still listen to it occasionally

    Writing's on the Wall was bad like really Bad

    and after listening to a bunch of Billie Eilish I have not found a single song I liked...


    Now could she knock something out of the park and pull out a Rock number that has Rush influences... I am sure anything is possible... do I I think that will happen... NOPE


    so Sadly much like I was with Die Another Day I fear the days of Fleming titles and Rock title songs are in the past.

    Sadly I agree. Liam Gallagher is a man of the past, yet also a man in the present too, appealing to a younger demographic. I would have been thrilled had he been chosen to do a rock Bond song. Even Artic Monkeys would do.

    Arctic Monkeys would do? Alex Turner would nail it no problem, Gallagher would need an army of song writers to get anywhere near it.

    You make it sound like they'd be the consolation prize to him when it clearly would be the other way round, Gallagher is yesterdays news, AM could still be considered today's.

    I don't think Gallagher would appeal to a young demographic at all, Turner and the Monkeys would have more of a chance.

    Lets face it our taste in music is just not what the kids on the whole would listen to.

    For them to consider a rock approach it would be one of the more younger pups out there and not bands from our earlier years.

    We aren't the demographic they are trying to appeal to.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    If this was still 2006 Gallagher would have made a worthy contender.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 4,602
    Where do you draw the line between what fits with Bond and "the demographic they are trying to appeal to" - why not get Stormzy?
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