Connery and Moore as Bond - Octopussy vs. Never say never again.

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Comments

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    NSNA. OP is too comic and Connery is always a better Bond than Moore.
  • Posts: 2,896
    BT3366 wrote: »
    When Moore was serious such as during the Orlov train confrontation and many of the later scenes in trying to prevent the explosion on the base, it really stood out.

    Yes, Moore's dramatic moments are very effective. Aside from those two scenes though, it's a business-as-usual performance
    While it was great to see Connery as Bond again, if you look at it his performance it isn't really that much different than what Moore was doing tone-wise. He brings the lighter touch throughout, almost an extension of what he began in DAF.

    Perhaps, but Moore's Bond isn't really that much different from what Connery was doing tone-wise in DAF. In NSNA Connery doesn't have scenes as deadly serious as those in OP, but in the serious material he does have--telling Domino of her brother's death for example, he shows how great he can be. The rest of his performance is in a lighter vein, and perhaps even lighter than his earlier Bond performances--with age he can do more with less effort, and it's pleasure to watch him handle those throwaway lines with even more finesse and subtlety than he used to. The scene of him conning the guard with the "bomb" is a great example.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    1983 showed how good both of these two were, which is why they remain my favourites in the role. Titans imho. Each different, but very convincing in their own interpretations, especially in this year as they both either ended or came close to ending their run. Old hands making it look too easy.
  • Posts: 142
    With OP as with all of Moore’s films, he never excels above his banal narcissistic personality. OP has some good sets and even a decent storyline, but remains trapped in RM’s penchant for slapstick quality comedy. NSNA can’t really compete with the production quality of an EON film, and sufferers from being a poor remake of a successful film, yet still manages to pull off a decent adventure story. Connery, even an ageing Connery, is still able to deliver a good line at the right moment and put in a strong effort as a tough guy. As Bond films go both are watchable and neither exceeds the other for a host of poor decisions on both sides of the fence. NSNA was obviously an opportunity for the producer to thumb his nose at EON, but as a Bond fan and not a critic I still find it an enjoyable film to watch, and OP will always be just another film with Moore as the lead actor, all of which I find hard to watch from beginning to end in one complete sitting, I even recall walking out of the movie theater due to boredom once or maybe even twice (if my date is bored, then it’s definitely time to find a refreshingly good club with a decent DJ).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I recently found out that Barbara Carrera was initially offered the role of Octopussy in OP. She turned it down because Irvin Kershner had told her that he was going to be making NSNA with Connery and wanted her for a role. Carrera was a big Connery fan, so she held out for it. Smart move (she was nominated for a Golden Globe for Fatima Blush).
  • Posts: 533
    Not a big fan of "Never Say Never Again". If I want to see an adaptation of "Thunderball", I would rather watch the 1965 movie. On the other hand, "Octopussy" is one of my top ten Bond movies.
  • Posts: 6,432
    No competition for me OP is a better film in all areas, as much as I love Sean NSNA does not hold up well against any of the Eon films. Though NSNA is an easy watch and entertaining based on my last viewing of the film.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,043
    I can just as easily watch NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN, and relish Connery and Fatima Blush and the good stuff. I recommend the DVD commentary to anyone with an interest, it's very revealing for the production especially back end of the picture.

    I saw both in theaters on their release, OCTOPUSSY is a much better film and Bond film to me. Yes, there's the silliness, but a boatload of good stuff too and that's how business was done at the time.

    NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is left with the discordant musical score that works opposite the suspense and thrills John Barry would have built. It's noticeable the production runs out of steam and literally out of money at mission's end. Great Bond history though, Connery and others are great in it, and it's not something I turn off or avoid.

    The NEVER SAY MCCLORY AGAIN fan edit is a nice uptick with a truly Bond score plus some staples. It sets so many things right.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I can just as easily watch NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN, and relish Connery and Fatima Blush and the good stuff. I recommend the DVD commentary to anyone with an interest, it's very revealing for the production especially back end of the picture.

    I saw both in theaters on their release, OCTOPUSSY is a much better film and Bond film to me. Yes, there's the silliness, but a boatload of good stuff too and that's how business was done at the time.

    NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is left with the discordant musical score that works opposite the suspense and thrills John Barry would have built. It's noticeable the production runs out of steam and literally out of money at mission's end. Great Bond history though, Connery and others are great in it, and it's not something I turn off or avoid.

    The NEVER SAY MCCLORY AGAIN fan edit is a nice uptick with a truly Bond score plus some staples. It sets so many things right.

    Great post. I agree with every word. NSMA is a brilliant fan edit.
  • Posts: 15,818
    I'd like to see the fan edit sometime. Never saw the whole thing. However, I've seen the opening edited as a PTS with the gunbarrel included. Actually a couple different versions: one that uses the Dalton GB with Connery's NSNA face inserted, and another that used the Thunderball GB.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I preferred NSNA when they came out. Now i would rank them about the same.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I'm assuming there was huge anticipation and a big nostalgia factor about Connery returning. The media coverage must have been off the charts.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm assuming there was huge anticipation and a big nostalgia factor about Connery returning. The media coverage must have been off the charts.

    It wasn t like now, with the internet, but yes-it was a rather big deal.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,981
    Where can the fan-edit be found?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,110
    I often feel like they mustered all the creative energy they could to take Roger out on an "All time high" with octopussy, and that's one of the reasons that AVTAK feels so tired and sleepy by comparison. They were a spent force by that time, needed to reenergerize.
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm assuming there was huge anticipation and a big nostalgia factor about Connery returning. The media coverage must have been off the charts.

    There were tons of magazine articles and Sean making the rounds on all the TV talk shows.
    Interestingly, there wasn't a soundtrack album released until the late '90's (just as well, really). No NSNA toys that I'm aware of either. No Bond motorcycle, no toy laser watch or anything.
    The reviews were pretty decent at the time with many praising Sean's return as well as Brandauer and Carrera. I loved NSNA as a kid and still do.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Thanks @ToTheRight. As I've said elsewhere, it's a grower. It's not such an outlier to me anymore, since so many of the official series traditions have been removed over the years (including Adam, Barry, gunbarrel, 'Bond, James Bond', 'martini, shaken not stirred' & even on occasion, a decent title song etc. etc.)
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondjames wrote: »
    Thanks @ToTheRight. As I've said elsewhere, it's a grower. It's not such an outlier to me anymore, since so many of the official series traditions have been removed over the years (including Adam, Barry, gunbarrel, 'Bond, James Bond', 'martini, shaken not stirred' & even on occasion, a decent title song etc. etc.)

    Yeah, it's kind of an acquired taste in a way. There's definitely some weird stuff in it (like Bond and Felix bike riding and jogging in their underwear).
    To this day I still feel NSNA should have remained the ONLY film version of Bond to lack the iconic elements such as the opening gunbarrel and Bond Theme. The Craig films ( as much as I love his Bond) still seem to be the one's I tend to pop in the least because they often forego so many traditions.
    Interestingly, NSNA was also the first film version of Bond to change Bond's office environment with a new M who doesn't exactly approve of 007. Now it's almost a tradition to have Bond face off with a new boss who doesn't trust his instincts.
  • Posts: 226
    OP is a better movie, largely due to the superior production values (it's one of the best looking Bond movies overall) but I prefer Connery's performance.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I recently found out that Barbara Carrera was initially offered the role of Octopussy in OP. She turned it down because Irvin Kershner had told her that he was going to be making NSNA with Connery and wanted her for a role. Carrera was a big Connery fan, so she held out for it. Smart move (she was nominated for a Golden Globe for Fatima Blush).

    Looking at it from an acting perspective, Blush would be a more interesting part to play, I think. I can understand why she did it in addition to getting to be in a Bond film with Connery. A lot of people probably expected NSNA to be the bigger film.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,529
    @CountJohn, I agree.... OP is one of my favorite Moore films, but I love seeing Conners back as the aging double-O.

    I gravitate towards the tougher Bond, although i can admire the silly, "unflappable" Bond that Moore brought us.
  • Posts: 676
    NSNA was my first Bond film, so the lack of gun barrel, Bond theme, etc has never bothered me.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    edited May 2017 Posts: 4,312
    I had to post these pictures, 1983 was double-O-heaven for Bond fans. Moore and Connery battling it out. Both films have their flaws, but I tend to prefer NSNA.


    mags_cinema_double.jpg
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,700
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Both films have their flaws, but I tend to prefer NSNA.

    Me too-ooh.
  • Posts: 1,883
    As part of my dealing with Roger's passing I wanted to watch one of his Bonds and chose my personal favorite, OP. It reaffirmed why it's still my favorite of his although not having seen it in its entirety in years.

    Roger is in top form. I still feel it's got his most convincing fight scenes. They don't seem so choreographed and slow as in, say, TSWLM or FYEO. The stretch from when Bond arrives in Germany is one of the best, most dramatic stretches in any Bond film with a lot of great action and suspense. When he gets serious you feel it mucb more since he's better known for being flippant and suave.

    Maude Adams is his best leading lady, not just because they are closer in age than the others but she is a strong woman without having to be a Bond equal. Vijay is much more likeable and his death is more heartfelt than other Bond sacrificial lamb aides such as Ferrara, Chuck Lee or Strutter.

    And Barry's score is really underrated. I've always liked it but it seems to get rated lower than AVTAK's by fans, which I've never been drawn too. Sure, the title song is way stronger, but I much prefer the action them, chase bomb theme and other incidental music that didn't make the CD/album as opposed to AVTAK.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    BT3366 wrote: »
    As part of my dealing with Roger's passing I wanted to watch one of his Bonds and chose my personal favorite, OP. It reaffirmed why it's still my favorite of his although not having seen it in its entirety in years.

    Roger is in top form. I still feel it's got his most convincing fight scenes. They don't seem so choreographed and slow as in, say, TSWLM or FYEO. The stretch from when Bond arrives in Germany is one of the best, most dramatic stretches in any Bond film with a lot of great action and suspense. When he gets serious you feel it mucb more since he's better known for being flippant and suave.

    Maude Adams is his best leading lady, not just because they are closer in age than the others but she is a strong woman without having to be a Bond equal. Vijay is much more likeable and his death is more heartfelt than other Bond sacrificial lamb aides such as Ferrara, Chuck Lee or Strutter.

    And Barry's score is really underrated. I've always liked it but it seems to get rated lower than AVTAK's by fans, which I've never been drawn too. Sure, the title song is way stronger, but I much prefer the action them, chase bomb theme and other incidental music that didn't make the CD/album as opposed to AVTAK.

    +1
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 170
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  • Posts: 462
    Moore looks in far better shape than Connery in NSNA and the production values, music, direction, writing, editing, acting and sense of adventure found in OP is on a level NSNA could only dream of achieving.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 170
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  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    OP, without a doubt. It may be out of step with many here but I liked RMs later 007 movies (yes, that includes AVTAK!)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,529
    @stag, I'm with you: I think OP is my favorite from RM, and i think AVTAK is a blast (especially any scene involving RM facing off with Walken).
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