Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (30th June 2023)

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,791
    Just popping by and saw this bit:
    bondywondy wrote: »

    By the way, Helena Shaw actually says she is better than a man (or as good as a man) - words to that effect- during the Tuk Tuk cgi saturated chase. Evidence of the anti men pro women agenda rife in pop culture.

    A proper, fully fledged lie there. She says nothing of the kind. Evidence of nothing.

    And even if did say that -which she doesn't of course- a flawed character saying they're better than someone else doesn't make them right or that the movie is trying to push a point of view. Voller expresses full-on racist sentiments in this film; does that mean 'pop culture' is trying to repress black people? Folks need to stop projecting onto these films, it does not show them in a good light.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 233
    She does say that. I can provide the time mark. I can provide the time mark/scene later or tomorrow. I don't have access to the film right now.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,791
    bondywondy wrote: »
    She does say that. I can provide the time mark. I can provide the time mark/scene later.

    What is her supposed line? I have a transcript right here.
  • BennyBenny keeping tabs on youAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,722
    I don’t think any of us are going to get aboard the bondywondy train of thought.
    Seems like a pointless and futile idea. Good luck if you take on the challenge.
  • Posts: 233
    mtm wrote: »
    bondywondy wrote: »
    She does say that. I can provide the time mark. I can provide the time mark/scene later.

    What is her supposed line? I have a transcript right here.

    It's during the Tuk Tuk chase. I remember the line because it felt very Kathleen Kennedy! Lol
    I'll find the scene. I don't know if your transcript is accurate or not. Let me find the scene. I'll provide it later or tomorrow.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,791
    bondywondy wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    bondywondy wrote: »
    She does say that. I can provide the time mark. I can provide the time mark/scene later.

    What is her supposed line? I have a transcript right here.

    It's during the Tuk Tuk chase. I remember the line because it felt very Kathleen Kennedy! Lol
    I'll find the scene. I don't know if your transcript is accurate or not. Let me find the scene. I'll provide it later or tomorrow.

    What is the line?
    You won't come back tomorrow, because you know it's not true.

    Here's the transcript: https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=119562
    Search for the word 'pajamas' on the page, the chase starts from there where Rahim confronts them. Show me her line where she says 'she is better than a man (or as good as a man)' or makes any reference to men.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 233
    With respect I'll find the line based on the final cut released. I'm not using a third party transcript. I will provide the details later. ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,791
    Yes I obviously wrote that all out just now and removed the one line which proves me wrong... :))
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,965
    bondywondy wrote: »
    If you think 20 something year old TikTok users wanted see 80 year old Harrison Ford - and in my opinion acting old and grumpy - back as Indiana Jones, I very much doubt it. That gen can't relate to the character. Why would they care? Too old and past it.

    But just my opinion.

    To be fair, I think this is accurate. I think there was a misjudgment in terms of how many Indiana Jones fans there really are out there.

    That didn't bother me though, of course. I am an Indiana Jones fan. So I saw the film and enjoyed it.
  • mtm wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Just wondered what he needed the fedora for in the end.
    I think Marion asked him to wear it during sex.

    It is rather the inevitable conclusion to be drawn.

    Doh! That went straight over my head. I missed that conclusion completely. :-O

    I liked the old 1930's style circle fade out though when Indy grabs the hat. Reminds me of The Sting, and also a reference to the old 1930's flicks that Lucas and Spielberg first based the films on.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 233
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I obviously wrote that all out just now and removed the one line which proves me wrong... :))

    Found it on your transcript link.
    The Tuk Tuk chase has started. I can't remember if Helena is driving. Need to check later. I know Indiana takes over the wheel later on.
    Indiana Jones
    "How did you end up like this?"

    Helena Shaw
    "Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Beautiful? Self-sufficient"

    One of the key tenets of woke feminism is "I don't need a man." It is a bit of a cliché but it's grounded in truth. The notion modern women don't need a man's resources, his capacity to provide and protect. It's used in a pejorative sense to belittle men. "I'm self sufficient so I don't need a man." It's a paradoxical statement because heterosexual women do need men because most men initiate the dating process, pay for dinner dates, provide half of their assets in a divorce, not to mention civilisation was built by men. The Tuk Tuk Helena rides in was invented and made by men. It's hard to be self-sufficient without men. It's actually impossible. Without men there is no civilisation and without men many women will feel very lonely later in life if they're single and their biological clock is ticking.

    However...

    We're in 2023, we've had the #metoo movement, cancel culture and so called toxic masculinity is common place on the internet and studios such as Disney have sold the narrative "men are bad or less useful than ever before... and women are self sufficient, daring, beautiful etc."

    Would Indiana Jones or James Bond ever say about themselves.."Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Handsome? Self-sufficient."

    Nope. It would sound contrived and narcissistic but Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger (CEO of Disney) believe such a line is appropriate in an Indiana Jones film spoken by a woman to an old man that's meant to be the main hero. The line is also said in a smug Phobe Waller-Bridge way to put Indiana Jones in his place.

    In my earlier post I said Helena implied she was as good as a man. Being self-sufficient implies she has the capacity to be as good as a man (and that's clearly referring to Indiana Jones). She is self-sufficient so the only logical conclusion to make is Indiana Jones is not important. Emasculated. Surplus to requirements.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,791
    bondywondy wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I obviously wrote that all out just now and removed the one line which proves me wrong... :))

    Found it on your transcript link.
    The Tuk Tuk chase has started. I can't remember if Helena is driving. Need to check later. I know Indiana takes over the wheel later on.


    Indiana Jones
    "How did you end up like this?"

    Helena Shaw
    "Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Beautiful? Self-sufficient"


    One of the key tenets of woke feminism is "I don't need a man."

    So the line where she says she is "better than a man (or as good as a man)" is the one... which doesn't mention men (or women) at all. :))
    As I said, complete fabrication.

    You are a treasure. In your world, for a woman to show any sort of self respect, you see that as meaning that she's disrespecting men in some way, because of course all women only exist in relation to men, they cannot be defined as people in their own right. It's all deeply odd.
    Also, it entirely misses the point of that scene; a scene we are seeing through Indy's eyes. She is not being portrayed as correct here: Indy (and we) know that she's out of her depth and in trouble, and needs to be set on the correct path. She's full of herself: it's false pride, and the audience see it as such. She's flawed. It kind of staggers me that you'd not be able to see that.

    If a man said he's self-sufficient, you'd think he was strong and macho. Think of Bond on Jamaica in NTTD. But if a woman says she's self-sufficient, for some reason you see that as her rejecting men.
    Have a long and slow think about your worldview here, and how skewed it is.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,176
    bondywondy wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I obviously wrote that all out just now and removed the one line which proves me wrong... :))

    Found it on your transcript link.
    The Tuk Tuk chase has started. I can't remember if Helena is driving. Need to check later. I know Indiana takes over the wheel later on.
    Indiana Jones
    "How did you end up like this?"

    Helena Shaw
    "Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Beautiful? Self-sufficient"

    One of the key tenets of woke feminism is "I don't need a man." It is a bit of a cliché but it's grounded in truth. The notion modern women don't need a man's resources, his capacity to provide and protect. It's used in a pejorative sense to belittle men. "I'm self sufficient so I don't need a man." It's a paradoxical statement because heterosexual women do need men because most men initiate the dating process, pay for dinner dates, provide half of their assets in a divorce, not to mention civilisation was built by men. The Tuk Tuk Helena rides in was invented and made by men. It's hard to be self sufficient without men. It's actually impossible. Without men there is no civilisation and without men many women will feel very lonely later in life if they're single and their biological clock is ticking.

    However...

    We're in 2023, we've had the #metoo movement, cancel culture and so called toxic masculinity is common place on the internet and studios such as Disney have sold the narrative "men are bad or less useful than ever before... and women are self sufficient, daring, beautiful etc."

    Would Indiana Jones or James Bond ever say about themselves.."Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Handsome? Self-sufficient."

    Nope. It would sound contrived and narcissistic but Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger (CEO of Disney) believe such a line is appropriate in an Indiana Jones film. The line is also said in a smug Phobe Waller-Bridge way to put Indiana Jones in his place.

    In my earlier post I said Helena implied she was as good as a man. Being self sufficient implies she has the capacity to be as good as a man (and that's clearly referring to Indiana Jones). She is self-sufficient so the only logical conclusion to make is Indiana Jones is not important. Emasculated. Surplus to requirements.

    All this to admit that she says nothing that could remotely be construed as anti-male. These are some stunning leaps in logic to fit an agenda.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 233
    I've explained in detail the lines of dialogue and why I believe it's a deliberate attempt to empower women (or to be specific Helena Shaw) and to discredit/emasculate the hero, Indiana Jones.

    You said I was lying. I provided the quote. I am a man of my word. :) A treasure too. Lol

    Just to reiterate... I enjoyed the film. I just feel it was worth exploring the subtext, the woke type agenda presented in the film. At the end of the day it's just escapist fun. Do I think they should have made Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny? No. The character and lead actor too old. But they made it and we are entitled to like or dislike it. I'm kinda 6 out of 10 on the film. In the middle. ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,791
    bondywondy wrote: »
    I've explained in detail the lines of dialogue and why I believe it's a deliberate attempt to empower women (or to be specific Helena Shaw) and to discredit/emasculate the hero, Indiana Jones.

    You said I was lying.

    And you were. At no point does she say she's better than men, or refer to men in any way. That's simply a fact.

    I'm going to repeat this bit: If a man said he's self-sufficient, you'd think he was strong and macho. Think of Bond on Jamaica in NTTD. But if a woman says she's self-sufficient, for some reason you see that as her rejecting men.
    Have a long and slow think about your worldview here, and how skewed it is.

    Incidentally, empowering one of your lead characters in an action movie is not weird at all! But you see that as a bad thing. Again, have a look at why you think that might be.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    edited September 2023 Posts: 968
    bondywondy wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I obviously wrote that all out just now and removed the one line which proves me wrong... :))

    Found it on your transcript link.
    The Tuk Tuk chase has started. I can't remember if Helena is driving. Need to check later. I know Indiana takes over the wheel later on.
    Indiana Jones
    "How did you end up like this?"

    Helena Shaw
    "Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Beautiful? Self-sufficient"

    One of the key tenets of woke feminism is "I don't need a man." It is a bit of a cliché but it's grounded in truth. The notion modern women don't need a man's resources, his capacity to provide and protect. It's used in a pejorative sense to belittle men. "I'm self sufficient so I don't need a man." It's a paradoxical statement because heterosexual women do need men because most men initiate the dating process, pay for dinner dates, provide half of their assets in a divorce, not to mention civilisation was built by men. The Tuk Tuk Helena rides in was invented and made by men. It's hard to be self-sufficient without men. It's actually impossible. Without men there is no civilisation and without men many women will feel very lonely later in life if they're single and their biological clock is ticking.

    However...

    We're in 2023, we've had the #metoo movement, cancel culture and so called toxic masculinity is common place on the internet and studios such as Disney have sold the narrative "men are bad or less useful than ever before... and women are self sufficient, daring, beautiful etc."

    Would Indiana Jones or James Bond ever say about themselves.."Well, you mean resourceful? Daring? Handsome? Self-sufficient."

    Nope. It would sound contrived and narcissistic but Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger (CEO of Disney) believe such a line is appropriate in an Indiana Jones film spoken by a woman to an old man that's meant to be the main hero. The line is also said in a smug Phobe Waller-Bridge way to put Indiana Jones in his place.

    In my earlier post I said Helena implied she was as good as a man. Being self-sufficient implies she has the capacity to be as good as a man (and that's clearly referring to Indiana Jones). She is self-sufficient so the only logical conclusion to make is Indiana Jones is not important. Emasculated. Surplus to requirements.
    I'll be honest with you...
    NOTE: This is just MY personal views and i don't have the intention to offend anyone in and/or outside this forum.
    The thing is, nowadays, companies see minorities (Wheter it's LGBTQ+, Transgender or Non-Binary) as a way of getting easy cash (Disney, Netflix, Prime Video, the list goes on), and most of time it's the most "strong-view" members of those minorities who take those decisions.
    There are good examples of minority characters in movies and shows (I can't think of one at the moment), but then there's the minority characters whose only purpose to the story are just being a minority.
    Those type of characters always go:
    - "Men are useless!"
    - "Heteros are wrong!"
    - "Biology is a patriarchy invention!"
    - "God is a myth!"
    Not only it's really annoying, but also disrespectful to those minorities in general.

    Anyway, back to the point!
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 233
    You fail to grasp the narrative. By making Shaw self-sufficient you make Jones less masculine. LESS OF A HERO.

    This is intentional. This is Kathleen Kennedy's feminist agenda.

    If you can't get that, your loss.

    Saying I'm a liar is uncalled for. I assume you're trying to provoke me but I'm not playing that game.

    It's kind of tacky to call someone a liar for
    A) providing the dialogue
    B) having an opinion.

    My opinion is Indiana Jones 5 is an unnecessary deconstruction of the character. It's also unnecessary because Harrison Ford is clearly too old and seems incapable of injecting any discernible charm into the character.

    I get that whatever I post you'll say "wrong, liar, nonsense." Okay. I get it.

    You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. Saying I'm a liar doesn't add anything to the debate. I'm fine ending this topic.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 968
    bondywondy wrote: »
    Harrison Ford is clearly too old and seems incapable of injecting any discernible charm into the character.
    Well, what were you expecting? The man is 80 years old, they actually did a mask for the stunt doubles to make it look by the least, credible.
    harrison_ford_mask_3.jpeg


  • Posts: 1,394
    bondywondy wrote: »
    You fail to grasp the narrative. By making Shaw self-sufficient you make Jones less masculine. LESS OF A HERO.

    This is intentional. This is Kathleen Kennedy's feminist agenda.

    If you can't get that, your loss.

    Saying I'm a liar is uncalled for. I assume you're trying to provoke me but I'm not playing that game.

    It's kind of tacky to call someone a liar for
    A) providing the dialogue
    B) having an opinion.

    My opinion is Indiana Jones 5 is an unnecessary deconstruction of the character. It's also unnecessary because Harrison Ford is clearly too old and seems incapable of injecting any discernible charm into the character.

    I get that whatever I post you'll say "wrong, liar, nonsense." Okay. I get it.

    You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. Saying I'm a liar doesn't add anything to the debate. I'm fine ending this topic.

    Well said Bondywondy!

    Since the movie was released on digital last week,I have to say I’m looking forward to the honest trailer for Indy 5.

    I’m sure they will hammer the point home about how positively the film was received!😂

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,858
    I look forward to the next film, Indiana Jones and The Effervescence of Equality, in which Jane Fonda and Helen Mirren literally carry Harrison Ford to The Fountain of Youth behind a retirement home in St. Petersburg, Florida. With an uncredited cameo by Clint Eastwood as Man in a Chair. ;)
  • Posts: 1,394
    echo wrote: »
    I look forward to the next film, Indiana Jones and The Effervescence of Equality, in which Jane Fonda and Helen Mirren literally carry Harrison Ford to The Fountain of Youth behind a retirement home in St. Petersburg, Florida. With an uncredited cameo by Clint Eastwood as Man in a Chair. ;)

    😂😂😂

  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,842
    When TikTok is the barometer for what people want to see in films, then I am done with the human race.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 22,769
    My apologies if I was too negative about DOD last night, I had not slept for 36 hours and was grumpy. I do have issues with the film though one thing at the forefront of my mind is I never wanted to see one of my favorite hero's at this stage of his life and depicted the way Indy was in this film, maybe it reminds me too much of my own mortality.
    I liked the old 1930's style circle fade out though when Indy grabs the hat. Reminds me of The Sting, and also a reference to the old 1930's flicks that Lucas and Spielberg first based the films on.

    I did like that last shot it made me smile, probably my favorite moments in the film.

  • edited September 2023 Posts: 12,209
    When TikTok is the barometer for what people want to see in films, then I am done with the human race.

    Don’t worry. TikTok is just the newest trendy platform like Snapchat or Vine before it. Soon enough its popularity will die out and just get replaced by the next “big thing.” Films, on the other hand, will endure as an art form. I can only hope though that what will also be a trend is film discourse being primarily how “woke trash” a film is or not, especially before it even releases.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 14,791
    bondywondy wrote: »
    You fail to grasp the narrative. By making Shaw self-sufficient you make Jones less masculine. LESS OF A HERO.

    'Narrative' :))
    You do not make him less masculine. His life is saved at least three times by Short Round in Temple of Doom: a child. You have a very curious view of masculinity.
    Helena is also then proven to be incorrect. When Indy saves her several times; and then when she learns that she needs people and family more than she thinks she does. Seriously: watch the film, these messages are not hidden very deep.
    Some folks might take what she says at face value, but when you watch a film you have to try and understand that not every character speaks the truth or is being presented as correct. In Voller's case, he says racist stuff: none of which is cool and you shouldn't take that as gospel. In Helena's case, she's in denial about her life and just how self-sufficient she is: something Indy points out to her in the cave scene:

    Indy: Where'd you find him?
    Helena: He tried to steal my purse outside a casino in Marrakesh when he was 10. I hit him repeatedly with my car door... but he didn't let go and neither did I. So, been together ever since.
    Indy: Thought you were all about the money.
    Helena: I am.
    Indy: Nobody memorizes every page of their dead father's notebooks... for the money.


    This is not hidden deep within the film, it's pretty easy to spot.
    bondywondy wrote: »
    This is intentional. This is Kathleen Kennedy's feminist agenda.

    You are the only one with an agenda here. And it's not a very nice one.
    bondywondy wrote: »
    Saying I'm a liar is uncalled for. I assume you're trying to provoke me but I'm not playing that game.

    I said it wasn't true: it wasn't true.

    But you can't actually respond to any points put to you, you just keep repeating the same things. It's very telling.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,965
    bondywondy wrote: »
    You fail to grasp the narrative. By making Shaw self-sufficient you make Jones less masculine.

    If having a self-sufficient person around you dims your masculinity, then you weren't much of a man to begin with.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,791
    My apologies if I was too negative about DOD last night, I had not slept for 36 hours and was grumpy. I do have issues with the film though one thing at the forefront of my mind is I never wanted to see one of my favorite hero's at this stage of his life and depicted the way Indy was in this film, maybe it reminds me too much of my own mortality.
    I liked the old 1930's style circle fade out though when Indy grabs the hat. Reminds me of The Sting, and also a reference to the old 1930's flicks that Lucas and Spielberg first based the films on.

    I did like that last shot it made me smile, probably my favorite moments in the film.

    That's no worries; sorry to hear you hadn't slept in so long, that's pretty horrible!
    The film certainly surprised me with it's slightly gloomier tone than the other films, but once I was past that I realised that there's a really lovely and warm story at the heart of it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,955
    bondywondy sounds like a lot of men of a certain age out there who feel threatened and insecure about the world changing around them, and so go on lashing out over “wokeism”. Feels uncomfortable watching a movie about an old man who’s reached a low point in his elder years that makes him feel like he no longer belongs anywhere to the point that he’s willing to commit temporal suicide. Helena saves Indy and then immediately shows him at the end that he still has something to live for. Not just with Marion, but friend old and new and that’s what reinvigorates him. “Are you back?” “Yes.” And for the first time in all these films, he actually comes back home with the artifact of the adventure.

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 22,769
    mtm wrote: »
    My apologies if I was too negative about DOD last night, I had not slept for 36 hours and was grumpy. I do have issues with the film though one thing at the forefront of my mind is I never wanted to see one of my favorite hero's at this stage of his life and depicted the way Indy was in this film, maybe it reminds me too much of my own mortality.
    I liked the old 1930's style circle fade out though when Indy grabs the hat. Reminds me of The Sting, and also a reference to the old 1930's flicks that Lucas and Spielberg first based the films on.

    I did like that last shot it made me smile, probably my favorite moments in the film.

    That's no worries; sorry to hear you hadn't slept in so long, that's pretty horrible!
    The film certainly surprised me with it's slightly gloomier tone than the other films, but once I was past that I realised that there's a really lovely and warm story at the heart of it.

    Cheers, I work shifts as it was my last shift for a few days I thought I would try to stay awake as the weather was too good to miss and went for a long distance run, it is never a good idea when I do that especially when my sleep has not been great this week.

    I think it is best I don't watch DOD for a while and revisit it later, see if I view it differently. There are many films over the years including Bond that I have disliked initially and years later grown to love.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited September 2023 Posts: 7,965
    Good man @Fire_and_Ice_Returns. Hard work is satisfying but does have its inevitable drawbacks.
    bondywondy sounds like a lot of men of a certain age out there who feel threatened and insecure about the world changing around them, and so go on lashing out over “wokeism”. Feels uncomfortable watching a movie about an old man who’s reached a low point in his elder years that makes him feel like he no longer belongs anywhere to the point that he’s willing to commit temporal suicide. Helena saves Indy and then immediately shows him at the end that he still has something to live for. Not just with Marion, but friend old and new and that’s what reinvigorates him. “Are you back?” “Yes.” And for the first time in all these films, he actually comes back home with the artifact of the adventure.

    Not to dispute your great point about DOD - but he did return home with the stolen stone in Temple, didn't he?
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