A View to a Kill. Let's make it better!

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  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    Posts: 32
    TripAces wrote: »

    From the mid-80s, who would have worked? Maybe Kim Greist or Theresa Russell.

    I looked them both up on Google. Out of the two I like the idea of casting Kim best.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    The thought of View To A Kill without Roger makes me very sad though: half the pleasure is from watching him.
    Replacing Roberts I can deal with, and it could do with something a bit stronger than the fire truck chase, but I’m afraid otherwise I still rather like it :)
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Newton-le-Willows, England
    edited September 2020 Posts: 257
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick Macnee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 15,423
    Could you have done something which addressed it being his last film? It was the last film of the 'first' James Bond too (as Connery and Moore were around the same age and Moore could conceivably have been playing him since '62- Brosnan and Dalton were significantly younger) so maybe you could, but I guess it would have got in the way of the Zorin/Mayday etc. plot which was a lot of fun on its own.
    Still, it's not hard to wish it had ended on a bit better note than that shower scene.

    Reading back in the thread it's interesting that someone points out that Bond and Mayday never really go head-to-head, which is a good point. Maybe it would have been good for them to have a proper Oddjob-style showdown: and she would have got the better of him. I'd certainly keep her changing sides though: I like that bit, and Zorin's betrayal of her really works to sell how evil and unhinged he is.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    Posts: 32
    On the one hand the shower scene does feel like the standard Bond thing, but on the other hand, as others have pointed out due to Moore's age, Stacey seems a bit young for Bond to actually seduce.

    After the way Bond gently turns down Dink in For Your Eyes Only, the scene kind of seems hypocritically wrong.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    On the one hand the shower scene does feel like the standard Bond thing, but on the other hand, as others have pointed out due to Moore's age, Stacey seems a bit young for Bond to actually seduce.

    After the way Bond gently turns down Dink in For Your Eyes Only, the scene kind of seems hypocritically wrong.

    Yeah I think they cast her a little too young. Although 29 isn't the youngest Bond girl ever I'm sure, bearing in mind she was supposed to be an expert geologist, had run her own company, has a big house and dead family etc. then she sounds like she should have been a little older- Maud Adams was 38 in Octopussy and she feels a much better fit to Roger; they should have gone for someone a little more mature.
    Although I guess that would have brought the average age of the goodies in that movie even higher! :D

    viewkill_bond.jpg?w=620&h=264
  • How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Except maybe about the casting of Michelle Pfeiffer and the removal of May Day, I pretty much agree with all your points, especially the introduction of Dalton and the need of a new and better story, while retaining Zorin as the antagonist. Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson, could have been an interesting base for an alternative Bond 14 starring Dalton.

    In a more secondary way, I would have preferred the title to be "From a View to a Kill".
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Newton-le-Willows, England
    edited September 2020 Posts: 257
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Except maybe about the casting of Michelle Pfeiffer and the removal of May Day, I pretty much agree with all your points, especially the introduction of Dalton and the need of a new and better story, while retaining Zorin as the antagonist. Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson, could have been an interesting base for an alternative Bond 14 starring Dalton.

    In a more secondary way, I would have preferred the title to be "From a View to a Kill".

    I just didn’t find May Day interesting. And keeping Zorin is the main bad guy would of made for some interesting exchanges between Walken and Dalton.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson,

    Did that turn up then? Which one was that? I can never remember which was which from those 90s drafts.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Did that turn up then? Which one was that? I can never remember which was which from those 90s drafts.

    In this screenplay, Sir Henry Ferguson is a businessman who seeks to obtain Hong Kong. To succeed, he supports the renegade general Han, in the hope that he will overthrow the Chinese regime and take power. In addition to selling him weapons, Ferguson provides him with a stealth technology capable of launching an undetectable nuclear attack on mainland China. I may be anticipating the writers' intentions, but in the early 90s I guess the idea was to highlight the loss of influence of States in the face of the monopoly of certain companies, able to manipulate countries for their own ends.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 15,423
    Ah that rings a bell.. weren't there robots?

    Personally I really like the French sections of AVTAK - I think that gives it a really nice feel and I think it would be a shame to lose that.

    I find it very hard to picture Dalton in it as many suggest- I think he'd really struggle in it and he's not 'big' enough to survive next to Walken or Jones. If you had to replace Roger (which I very much resist) then Brosnan would be a much better choice: even in full Remington Steel mode he'd have been charismatic enough to carry it and would have been able to handle the tonal changes.
  • edited September 2020 Posts: 901
    mtm wrote: »
    Ah that rings a bell.. weren't there robots?
    Only in Alfonse Ruggiero Jr's treatment on which this screenplay is based on. Since it has never leaked, we can only trust the descriptions found here and there, but, in Osborne and Davies's script, Bond would have only faced, in the PTS, a high-tech industrial robot in a chemical weapons factory in Libya. It contrasts with Ruggiero Jr's treatment where he is indeed briefly opposed to an android in the third act. In this version, the main antagonist would have been a little bit different: here, Sir Henry Lee Ching (and not Ferguson) seeks to take revenge on China and the UK, and is not help by any renegade general.

    Still, I think Ferguson's plan (destabilize a government to acquire territory, making his business as powerful as States) could have been ideal for Zorin, in case of a complete rewrite to suit Dalton's introduction.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    Interesting; when did details of that come out? I remember it being talked about that they did one but I thought it had never appeared.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Interesting; when did details of that come out?
    Ruggiero Jr's treatment is entirely available online, here's a link:
    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/bond_17_act1.php3

    Regarding Osborne and Davies's script, most details available come from the Some Kind of Hero book, by Matthew Field and Ajay Chowdhury. Recently, the screenplay was sold in auction and some scenes were readable.
    https://propstoreauction.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/26/lot/3381/JAMES-BOND-BOND-17-Draft-Screenplay
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 15,423
    Very interesting, thanks- I didn't realise it had been sold.

    Interesting to see the idea of bringing the DB5 goes back all that way.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I'd keep Sir Roger but make it more age appropriate. Construct a plot about Bond's last mission before retirement and have his enemies underestimate him and occasionally mock him for being too old. I'd definitely recast Stacey for someone (at least a little) older and more believable as a geologist.

    You could still keep that lighter touch associated with a Moore film but get rid of the more absurd gags, i.e. the Beach Boys etc... Perhaps most importantly fix the editing of the fight scenes. Really wouldn't be too hard to go through and clean it up of the major complaints and have a cracking good adventure.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    pachazo wrote: »
    I'd keep Sir Roger but make it more age appropriate. Construct a plot about Bond's last mission before retirement and have his enemies underestimate him and occasionally mock him for being too old. I'd definitely recast Stacey for someone (at least a little) older and more believable as a geologist.

    You could still keep that lighter touch associated with a Moore film but get rid of the more absurd gags, i.e. the Beach Boys etc... Perhaps most importantly fix the editing of the fight scenes. Really wouldn't be too hard to go through and clean it up of the major complaints and have a cracking good adventure.

    Yeah that all sounds good to me- as you say some of the fights are the lowest points: the one in the microchip boxing plant is appalling (we don't even see Bond beat his opponent!) and could have done with a totally different set piece down there. The film is quite good at setting up a sort of ominous tone so something like the Moonraker 'smelling a rat' sequence would've been nice.

    I do seem to be in a very small minority who doesn't mind the California Girls bit :) - I think it's quite a fun joke and it's not really much sillier than the Bond theme triumphantly blaring out at that moment.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    edited September 2020 Posts: 32
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Except maybe about the casting of Michelle Pfeiffer and the removal of May Day, I pretty much agree with all your points, especially the introduction of Dalton and the need of a new and better story, while retaining Zorin as the antagonist. Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson, could have been an interesting base for an alternative Bond 14 starring Dalton.

    In a more secondary way, I would have preferred the title to be "From a View to a Kill".

    I personally would never want to dump May Day either. I love the concept idea of a villain having a close romantic relationship with a henchwoman. AVTAK almost fulfilled this situation, until the surprise twist near the end. The betrayal and redemption is kind of silly in retrospection. She helps Bond sacrificing herself to get the bomb out of the shaft, not because it's the right thing to do, but because she's angry about Zorin's back-stabbing her. Hardly what you'd consider a heroic noble sacrifice.

    Having her in an Oddjob-like final showdown would definitely make more sense and tie in more with the Goldfinger comparison the movie has of course, Though I still prefer my idea as described in my very first post in this thread. ;)

    By the way I can easily see Dalton as Bond in my idea for the movie. Dalton could easily duke it out with May Day on the Golden Gate Bridge. :D
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 15,423
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Except maybe about the casting of Michelle Pfeiffer and the removal of May Day, I pretty much agree with all your points, especially the introduction of Dalton and the need of a new and better story, while retaining Zorin as the antagonist. Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson, could have been an interesting base for an alternative Bond 14 starring Dalton.

    In a more secondary way, I would have preferred the title to be "From a View to a Kill".

    I personally would never want to dump May Day either. I love the concept idea of a villain having a close romantic relationship with a henchwoman.

    Yeah I've been thinking recently that a husband and wife team would be a rather nice dynamic for villains, and I like how it works here. "I thought that creep liked me"
    I guess Electra and Reynard almost have that dynamic although she's really using him more than loving him.
    AVTAK almost fulfilled this situation, until the surprise twist near the end. The betrayal and redemption is kind of silly in retrospection. She helps Bond sacrificing herself to get the bomb out of the shaft, not because it's the right thing to do, but because she's angry about Zorin's back-stabbing her. Hardly what you'd consider a heroic noble sacrifice.

    Is that bad? I don't see the problem with that. I actually really like the moment they become allies, it's something very rare in a Bond film.
    Having her in an Oddjob-like final showdown would definitely make more sense and tie in more with the Goldfinger comparison the movie has of course, Though I still prefer my idea as described in my very first post in this thread. ;)

    Yes it never occurred to me that they never have a full-on confrontation. It might have been nice to expand that little bit where she catches up with Bond and Stacey in the tunnels, maybe kicking him into a little side cavern to give him a proper beating for while until the caverns flood: maybe he manages to turn the tables on her in the fight and has her beaten at the moment the water arrives, and then actually saves her from drowning.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    edited September 2020 Posts: 32
    I don't necessarily think it's bad. I can enjoy some stories, even if they don't necessarily make a lot of sense. Basically I can see it as fun and enjoyable even in its silliness. I can see what somebody else once said in a blog post. It's difficult to fathom how easily they make peace. From Bond's side knowing how devoted he is to the principle of revenge saying to her, "Well you killed Tibbett, but all is forgiven now." I just need to take it with a reasonable grain of salt.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    I don't think Bond would put revenge above saving hundreds of thousands of people, though, I think that's in character.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    Posts: 32
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't think Bond would put revenge above saving hundreds of thousands of people, though, I think that's in character.

    It sounds like you see Bond as having noble ideals that can outweigh his impulses for vengeance in the right circumstances.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    Has it ever been shown to be otherwise? Particularly the Roger version.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 2020 Posts: 6,083
    More May Day and Madonna (in her prime) as Stacey.

    Acknowledgement that this is Moore's last mission.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    Posts: 32
    mtm wrote: »
    Has it ever been shown to be otherwise? Particularly the Roger version.

    That is a good call.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,423
    That's fun after thinking about it today: it's on ITV4 right now! :)
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    Posts: 32
    echo wrote: »
    More May Day and Madonna (in her prime) as Stacey.

    Acknowledgement that this is Moore's last mission.

    That would have been good with Madonna playing Stacey.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,756
    This may be a controversial opinion but I think AVTAK has bigger issues than Tanya Roberts. At least she was smoking hot in the film. I would not want her replaced, merely coached.
  • edited September 2020 Posts: 12,316
    The thing with AVTAK for me is that while it could never be among the very best-made, elite Bond films, I don't think much tweaking could really make the experience of it more enjoyable. Christopher Walken as Zorin is one of the series' best villains, May Day is a fantastic henchwoman, Roger Moore as Bond - though noticeably old in the role - is still so hard to imagine being swapped out of this one for me. John Barry's score and the title song are pure awesomeness. Stacey ranks as one of my least favorite Bond girls, so I guess perhaps some altering there could help, but as a collective whole AVTAK has this silly, even flawed charm to it that I feel it would lose with changes to make it objectively "better." I used to put this film right at the bottom. Now it's in the middle and I adore it for what it is.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited September 2020 Posts: 5,875
    Honestly if I was to rewrite A View to a Kill, I only would keep; Christopher Walken, Patrick Macnee, and Grace Jones as cast members, and then change the entire plot and create a new main Bond girl.
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