Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • acoppola wrote:
    Humour is so subjective. I do think each actor needs to bring his own style of humour to the part rather than depend on a popular previous actor. I may be in the minority here, but I loved Dalton's sarcasm when he delivers the line "Salt Corrosion". It is such a fast reflex to her question and he clearly is showing how intelligent Bond thinks she is.

    I also love his "Why didn't you learn the violin?". It was perfect for the situation and I laughed loud as did the cinema. He did it his way rather than impersonate Moore or Connery's gigs.

    Being a Bond actor is tricky. For everyone you please, you piss off someone else. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    Agreed. I love Dalton's delivery, and I liked that his humor, like Craig's take on the character, had an edge to it.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    Humour is so subjective. I do think each actor needs to bring his own style of humour to the part rather than depend on a popular previous actor. I may be in the minority here, but I loved Dalton's sarcasm when he delivers the line "Salt Corrosion". It is such a fast reflex to her question and he clearly is showing how intelligent Bond thinks she is.

    I also love his "Why didn't you learn the violin?". It was perfect for the situation and I laughed loud as did the cinema. He did it his way rather than impersonate Moore or Connery's gigs.

    Being a Bond actor is tricky. For everyone you please, you piss off someone else. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    Agreed. I love Dalton's delivery, and I liked that his humor, like Craig's take on the character, had an edge to it.

    Thanks @JimThompson I never agreed with some Bond critics who said Dalton was humourless. They were so unfair and had he been a straight Connery clone, they would have hanged him for that anyway.

    And Craig has humour too, just it is expressed subtly and true to his personality. I like that.

    Dalton and Craig to me get misunderstood in the role. They take flack all the time. I know Craig will get his critics once the new Bond comes along.

    I wish people would admire them for who they are, not criticise for what they are not or never wanted to be.

  • acoppola wrote:
    Thanks @JimThompson I never agreed with some Bond critics who said Dalton was humourless. They were so unfair and had he been a straight Connery clone, they would have hanged him for that anyway.

    And Craig has humour too, just it is expressed subtly and true to his personality. I like that.

    Dalton and Craig to me get misunderstood in the role. They take flack all the time. I know Craig will get his critics once the new Bond comes along. I wish people would admire them for who they are not what they are not or never wanted to be.
    Well, Craig and Dalton's interpretation of the character is, I think, a lot closer to the character one finds in the Fleming novels -- and that bloke isn't delivering humorous zingers.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    Thanks @JimThompson I never agreed with some Bond critics who said Dalton was humourless. They were so unfair and had he been a straight Connery clone, they would have hanged him for that anyway.

    And Craig has humour too, just it is expressed subtly and true to his personality. I like that.

    Dalton and Craig to me get misunderstood in the role. They take flack all the time. I know Craig will get his critics once the new Bond comes along. I wish people would admire them for who they are not what they are not or never wanted to be.
    Well, Craig and Dalton's interpretation of the character is, I think, a lot closer to the character one finds in the Fleming novels -- and that bloke isn't delivering humorous zingers.

    I think we live in a world where many are swayed by others negativity. And there is so much ignorance 50 years later about who the Bond of the books is.

    I remember Fleming said to the producers to not make Bond too likeable straight away. And Dalton/Craig succeed amazingly well.

  • acoppola wrote:
    I think we live in a world where many are swayed by others negativity. And there is so much ignorance 50 years later about who the Bond of the books is.

    I remember Fleming said to the producers to not make Bond too likeable straight away. And Dalton/Craig succeed amazingly well.
    I do agree there are a lot of people who love the movies who don't have a clue what the Bond of the Fleming books is like -- and I find that character much more interested than what Hollywood turned him into after From Russia With Love.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    Thanks @JimThompson I never agreed with some Bond critics who said Dalton was humourless. They were so unfair and had he been a straight Connery clone, they would have hanged him for that anyway.

    And Craig has humour too, just it is expressed subtly and true to his personality. I like that.

    Dalton and Craig to me get misunderstood in the role. They take flack all the time. I know Craig will get his critics once the new Bond comes along. I wish people would admire them for who they are not what they are not or never wanted to be.
    Well, Craig and Dalton's interpretation of the character is, I think, a lot closer to the character one finds in the Fleming novels -- and that bloke isn't delivering humorous zingers.

    I think we live in a world where many are swayed by others negativity. And there is so much ignorance 50 years later about who the Bond of the books is.

    I remember Fleming said to the producers to not make Bond too likeable straight away. And Dalton/Craig succeed amazingly well.

    I don't think the majority of people really want to see Fleming's Bond to be honest. I like the books very much but I doubt that most of those who have seen SF and loved it will be encouraged to pick up a book. Why else do you think they have put more "one liners" in SF? Because the audience like them.

    I've read Fleming's remarks about "not making the audience like Bond straight away" and to be honest I think Craig did it best. Dalton did well but the final few seconds of the PTS in TLD are an attempt to please audiences weaned on Moore.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    I think we live in a world where many are swayed by others negativity. And there is so much ignorance 50 years later about who the Bond of the books is.

    I remember Fleming said to the producers to not make Bond too likeable straight away. And Dalton/Craig succeed amazingly well.
    I do agree there are a lot of people who love the movies who don't have a clue what the Bond of the Fleming books is like -- and I find that character much more interested than what Hollywood turned him into after From Russia With Love.

    Bond in the books is an intense, brutalised character. He is edgy and the style added in the later films was there to make him more sellable.

    When I was a child, I thought A View To A Kill was a real interpretation of the Bond character. When I read Fleming, it was so bitter the contrast despite the fact he ate well or dressed nicely.



  • BAIN123 wrote:
    To be honest I don't think the majority of people really want to see Fleming's Bond to be honest. I like the books very much but I doubt that most of those who have seen SF and loved it will be encouraged to pick up a book. Why else do you think they have put more "one liners" in SF? Because the audience like them.
    I don't so much take issue with the Hollywood version using one liners; I am put-off when those start to be what I see as out-of-keeping with the essential nature of the character. Bond's humor, at best, ought to be a fairly dark humor.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    Thanks @JimThompson I never agreed with some Bond critics who said Dalton was humourless. They were so unfair and had he been a straight Connery clone, they would have hanged him for that anyway.

    And Craig has humour too, just it is expressed subtly and true to his personality. I like that.

    Dalton and Craig to me get misunderstood in the role. They take flack all the time. I know Craig will get his critics once the new Bond comes along. I wish people would admire them for who they are not what they are not or never wanted to be.
    Well, Craig and Dalton's interpretation of the character is, I think, a lot closer to the character one finds in the Fleming novels -- and that bloke isn't delivering humorous zingers.

    I think we live in a world where many are swayed by others negativity. And there is so much ignorance 50 years later about who the Bond of the books is.

    I remember Fleming said to the producers to not make Bond too likeable straight away. And Dalton/Craig succeed amazingly well.

    I don't think the majority of people really want to see Fleming's Bond to be honest. I like the books very much but I doubt that most of those who have seen SF and loved it will be encouraged to pick up a book. Why else do you think they have put more "one liners" in SF? Because the audience like them.

    That is what scares me. Because I do not think the producers were expecting the unfair backlash to QOS. He was fine in that film and still a cool character.

    What is sad is that going by Youtube reviews, very few are mentioning Craig's acting but stuff like his cuff link adjustment. Personally that is better suited to Brosnan's Bond and really started there in terms of the exageration. The last thing I want is Craig to be a please all Bond. It will dilute all his great work.

    I sense that with SF, they are trying to add elements that they were not intending. Some noticed that there are forced aspects in the film. I think Craig is too good of an actor to add baggage when he is interesting without those aspects.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    To be honest I don't think the majority of people really want to see Fleming's Bond to be honest. I like the books very much but I doubt that most of those who have seen SF and loved it will be encouraged to pick up a book. Why else do you think they have put more "one liners" in SF? Because the audience like them.
    I don't so much take issue with the Hollywood version using one liners; I am put-off when those start to be what I see as out-of-keeping with the essential nature of the character. Bond's humor, at best, ought to be a fairly dark humor.

    Agreed. Thats why I like Dalton's "you should have brought lillies" and "Craig's "yes... considerably".

    @acoppola But Craig still has plenty of acting moments in SF and moments of real drama. I don't think his work is diluted at all. Humour is good if it comes off convincingly. There needs to be a lightness of touch to Bond.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    To be honest I don't think the majority of people really want to see Fleming's Bond to be honest. I like the books very much but I doubt that most of those who have seen SF and loved it will be encouraged to pick up a book. Why else do you think they have put more "one liners" in SF? Because the audience like them.
    I don't so much take issue with the Hollywood version using one liners; I am put-off when those start to be what I see as out-of-keeping with the essential nature of the character. Bond's humor, at best, ought to be a fairly dark humor.

    It is no secret that modern cinema audiences have shorter attention spans than an audience of 30 years ago. And what they praise about SF is the superficialities as opposed to the depth of the performance.

    I love one liners but not if they are forced on the actor just to tick a box. That is doing it for the sake of it.



  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    To be honest I don't think the majority of people really want to see Fleming's Bond to be honest. I like the books very much but I doubt that most of those who have seen SF and loved it will be encouraged to pick up a book. Why else do you think they have put more "one liners" in SF? Because the audience like them.
    I don't so much take issue with the Hollywood version using one liners; I am put-off when those start to be what I see as out-of-keeping with the essential nature of the character. Bond's humor, at best, ought to be a fairly dark humor.

    Agreed. Thats why I like Dalton's "you should have brought lillies" and "Craig's "yes... considerably"

    Both classics and unique to each actor. I warmed to Craig's Bond instantly because I loved Dalton. I actually warmed to Craig quicker than Brosnan. I like true intensity in a Bond and I don't care if you like me attitude.

    And I love the actors who upon casting are seen as the controversial choices for the role. The more people hate them, the more I want to see them. Brosnan who was fine was loved before he even released the film.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    Agreed. Thats why I like Dalton's "you should have brought lillies" and "Craig's "yes... considerably"

    Dalton has many lines I really enjoy:

    "I've had a few optional extras installed."

    "He got the boot."

    "Exercise control, this is 007. I'll report in an hour...better make that two."

    "They're looking for a foreign car, with a man and a woman."
    "And a cello."



  • acoppola wrote:
    It is no secret that modern cinema audiences have shorter attention spans than an audience of 30 years ago. And what they praise about SF is the superficialities as opposed to the depth of the performance.
    All evidence to the contrary, I think. Movies are getting longer on average with more context and details to them, Skyfall being among them.

  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Agreed. Thats why I like Dalton's "you should have brought lillies" and "Craig's "yes... considerably"

    Dalton has many lines I really enjoy:

    "I've had a few optional extras installed."

    "He got the boot."
    "Exercise control, this is 007. I'll report in an hour...better make that two."

    "They're looking for a foreign car, with a man and a woman."
    "And a cello."




    Hmm I don't know if he could sell those Moore-esque lines as convincingly. If you look closely "he got the boot" is synced in.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 803
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Hmm I don't know if he could sell those Moore-esque lines as convincingly. If you look closely "he got the boot" is synced in.
    I love his delivery of those lines. Always brings a smile to my face -- as do some of his more serious lines like "Yes...I got the message."

  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Hmm I don't know if he could sell those Moore-esque lines as convincingly. If you look closely "he got the boot" is synced in.
    I love his delivery of those lines. Always brings a smile to my face -- as do some of his more serious lines like "Yes...I got the message."


    I think the worst example is "looks like he came to a dead end" in LTK. It just doesn't work.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    It is no secret that modern cinema audiences have shorter attention spans than an audience of 30 years ago. And what they praise about SF is the superficialities as opposed to the depth of the performance.
    All evidence to the contrary, I think. Movies are getting longer on average with more context and details to them, Skyfall being among them.

    Well who made Transformers Revenge Of The Fallen? Because that is a film that highlights the mentality of the audience it is aimed at. And there a lot of those. Damn you only need 2 brain cells for that film.

    For every Dark Knight there are ten turds. Nolan is an exception in Hollywood mentality rather than the norm.

  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I think the worst example is "looks like he came to a dead end" in LTK. It just doesn't work.
    Eh, different strokes. It worked fine for me.

    Things like almost getting run through with a swordfish, on the other hand, had me rolling my eyes as just being a bit too cute.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think the worst example is "looks like he came to a dead end" in LTK. It just doesn't work.
    Eh, different strokes. It worked fine for me.

    Things like almost getting run through with a swordfish, on the other hand, had me rolling my eyes as just being a bit too cute.

    If Brosnan had said the "dead end" line everyone would be jumping on him ;)
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Hmm I don't know if he could sell those Moore-esque lines as convincingly. If you look closely "he got the boot" is synced in.
    I love his delivery of those lines. Always brings a smile to my face -- as do some of his more serious lines like "Yes...I got the message."

    The "And a cello!" is very witty and definitely not a Moore line. Moore's lines tended to be longer like "All those feathers and he still couldn't fly!".

    Dalton said he had no interest in copying the actors before. To a real actor that would be like a skilled musician joining The Beatles and say being told to be George Harrison.

  • acoppola wrote:
    Well who made Transformers Revenge Of The Fallen? Because that is a film that highlights the mentality of the audience it is aimed at. And there a lot of those. Damn you only need 2 brain cells for that film.

    For every Dark Knight there are ten turds. Nolan is an exception in Hollywood mentality rather than the norm.
    There are also films like the Harry Potter series, the Lord of the Rings movies, the relaunched Star Trek films, and others. Sure, there are movies that are made for pure spectacle, but even a movie like this summer's The Avengers has an over two hour run time and is taking some time to develop an underlying plot that doesn't completely insult a viewer's intelligence.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think the worst example is "looks like he came to a dead end" in LTK. It just doesn't work.
    Eh, different strokes. It worked fine for me.

    Things like almost getting run through with a swordfish, on the other hand, had me rolling my eyes as just being a bit too cute.

    Dalton in LTK uses dry black humour. The line in the elevator "Give me your gun! Let's make this a proper family reunion!" is classic and sexy.

  • BAIN123 wrote:
    If Brosnan had said the "dead end" line everyone would be jumping on him ;)
    No doubt some would.
  • acoppola wrote:
    Dalton in LTK uses dry black humour. The line in the elevator "Give me your gun! Let's make this a proper family reunion!" is classic and sexy.
    "Do you have a law for what they did to Leiter?"

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    Well who made Transformers Revenge Of The Fallen? Because that is a film that highlights the mentality of the audience it is aimed at. And there a lot of those. Damn you only need 2 brain cells for that film.

    For every Dark Knight there are ten turds. Nolan is an exception in Hollywood mentality rather than the norm.
    There are also films like the Harry Potter series, the Lord of the Rings movies, the relaunched Star Trek films, and others. Sure, there are movies that are made for pure spectacle, but even a movie like this summer's The Avengers has an over two hour run time and is taking some time to develop an underlying plot that doesn't completely insult a viewer's intelligence.

    Took a long time to get there though. I do hear complaints on Youtube that SF is too long. Me personally, I like value and a story that does not rush.

    But I do agree that comic book films are superb these days. They go so out of their way for the fans. Harry Potter is fantastic too!


  • Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote:
    Dalton in LTK uses dry black humour. The line in the elevator "Give me your gun! Let's make this a proper family reunion!" is classic and sexy.
    "Do you have a law for what they did to Leiter?"

    I must admit I don't like that line or the way Dalton delivers it. It sounds a bit...cliche (?) if you ask me.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    Dalton in LTK uses dry black humour. The line in the elevator "Give me your gun! Let's make this a proper family reunion!" is classic and sexy.
    "Do you have a law for what they did to Leiter?"

    Dry sarcasm. I actually think Dalton was too intelligent for audiences of the time. That was his crime. Had he played Bond like the persona he had in Sextette, he would have been universally loved.

    But I respect any actor who is true to himself or herself. And Dalton was never a corporate c**k sucker! He knew a lot wanted Connery or Moore and that takes big balls as Sanchez would say.

  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I must admit I don't like that line or the way Dalton delivers it. It sounds a bit...cliche (?) if you ask me.
    What is wrong with you? :P

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I must admit I don't like that line or the way Dalton delivers it. It sounds a bit...cliche (?) if you ask me.
    What is wrong with you? :P

    It sounds like the kind of line that would be in a standard American revenge movie of that period.
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