Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Once you get into the nitty gritty, Brosnans films are much more bondian and representive of the series as a whole than Craigs films are on average.
    Does Bondian mean pop culture's view of Bond? So the sex, sadism and snobbery dialled up to 100? Or a better representation of the character of Bond (adding onto source material). Because the first is a no brainer: Brosnan's films were key for building the stereotype of what Bond is an should be in the 21st century. Only the second is controversial
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,429
    Once you get into the nitty gritty, Brosnans films are much more bondian and representive of the series as a whole than Craigs films are on average.
    Does Bondian mean pop culture's view of Bond? So the sex, sadism and snobbery dialled up to 100? Or a better representation of the character of Bond (adding onto source material). Because the first is a no brainer: Brosnan's films were key for building the stereotype of what Bond is an should be in the 21st century. Only the second is controversial

    What I mean is the brosnan films add more to the series than the craig films. Quantum of solace adds nothing to the overall canon, or barely anything as a whole besides being the few times bond doesn't "get with" the main bond girl. Die Another Day, inspite of its flaws as a film, is inherently more bondian. Bond with a full beard and pj's swaggering into the lobby soaking wet in inherently bondian, so is zhao's appearance with the diamond incrusted features, the sword fight is completely in line with what is considered bondian, and the stunt of Bond righting the car using the ejector seat as the missle is flies through its path is both genuis in its conception, and its execution. David Arnold's score is suitably techno for the early 2000's, just as Moores films flaunted their 70's swagger. Also while "saved by the Bell" was a bit on the nose, bond using the accelerator to pin the villain to the back of a hover vehicle and then grappling hos way to safety is completely bondian, and something I could easily see Dalton doing in a third film, had it come to that. Say what you like about DAD, there is a lot of material, even for a film that is considered bad, that is 100% true to the series, and would fit into any other bond film seamlessly and work.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Hey @Mendes4Lyfe , there’s this new member on the site. I should introduce you. I have a feeling you’d get along beautifully!

    To take another perspective re: your post above (that Brosnan’s films added to the series in comparison to Craig’s films), I quite honestly don’t know what you mean by that.

    One could see some of these Brosnan films as trying to, say, create a new Oddjob and failing; having terrible dialogue, that is the antithesis of Bondian (Halle Berry’s “quips”); personally I hated the sword fight (love the idea, hated the execution. To me, it felt like too brats having tantrums— sorry if I’m offending anyone with that one. But I didn’t like it in the least).

    I don’t know how Bond in beard and pyjamas, whilst humorous, “added to the series”. I liked it more when Bond pulls Fields out of a crummy hotel and, instead, books into a swanky one, using her “cover-line” to show the audience how absolutely cool he is, and how green she is….

    I think the Craig films add great value to the series, as all Bond films do, to one degree or another.

    Your obsession with trying to knock Craig down a few pegs is getting a little predictable.

    But I certainly get it: you don’t like the Craig era. It has little or no value to you— especially the last two or three films. You’ve been very clear on this. Repeatedly.

    However, Craig is gone.

    When are you going to let him go yourself?
  • Posts: 2,017
    For me all vestiges of what was Bond ended with License to Kill. Connery and Adams were long gone. Barry bowed out with TLD. Fleming's stories had all been used. All that was left was John Glen and Maibaum. By the time Brosnan took over, nothing was left, except the gun barrel opening and the Bond theme. Simply not enough to feel like a Bond film. Nothing about the Brosnan era was memorable to me. With CR, something felt as if it had returned. Hard to pinpoint. Maybe because it was an actual Fleming story. But it felt edgier and less glamorous. The nonBarry theme song harkened back to Goldfinger and Thunderball. Here was a grittier Bond who lacked the polish of Connery and Dalton. Because CR was an origin film, you could imagine Craig becoming more refined. I don't think any of the four follow up films got close to CR, but Craig was an engaging Bond who didn't make me miss Connery, GL, or TD. What I missed was the style and tone of those original Bond films. I want the next Bond film to feel more like a Bond film. Maybe bring back a little more of Barry. Maybe some Adams-like design. A little more fun without the silliness of the Moore films.
  • Once you get into the nitty gritty, Brosnans films are much more bondian and representive of the series as a whole than Craigs films are on average.
    Does Bondian mean pop culture's view of Bond? So the sex, sadism and snobbery dialled up to 100? Or a better representation of the character of Bond (adding onto source material). Because the first is a no brainer: Brosnan's films were key for building the stereotype of what Bond is an should be in the 21st century. Only the second is controversial

    What I mean is the brosnan films add more to the series than the craig films. Quantum of solace adds nothing to the overall canon, or barely anything as a whole besides being the few times bond doesn't "get with" the main bond girl. Die Another Day, inspite of its flaws as a film, is inherently more bondian. Bond with a full beard and pj's swaggering into the lobby soaking wet in inherently bondian, so is zhao's appearance with the diamond incrusted features, the sword fight is completely in line with what is considered bondian, and the stunt of Bond righting the car using the ejector seat as the missle is flies through its path is both genuis in its conception, and its execution. David Arnold's score is suitably techno for the early 2000's, just as Moores films flaunted their 70's swagger. Also while "saved by the Bell" was a bit on the nose, bond using the accelerator to pin the villain to the back of a hover vehicle and then grappling hos way to safety is completely bondian, and something I could easily see Dalton doing in a third film, had it come to that. Say what you like about DAD, there is a lot of material, even for a film that is considered bad, that is 100% true to the series, and would fit into any other bond film seamlessly and work.

    While I get your point, QOS is probably a bad film to go after. This is the film with teachers on sabbatical who won the lottery, "I'm sure they do" after Greene says his friends call him Dominic, and "I missed" when questioned on the survival of Camille. The car chase, while frantic and poorly edited, is also tense and key Bond element. Bog-standard PTS action, and Craig looks physically his best as Bond (and it is his best performance).
  • Posts: 4,266
    I mean, both QOS and DAD add something to the Bond series, and in ways I would describe as Bondian. DAD obviously features a Bond who, for all intents and purposes fails at the beginning of the film and is captured/tortured, with a good chunk of the film centred around him having to piece together who betrayed him, with MI6 under the impression he's revealed compromising information. That's not somewhere the series ever went before.

    QOS has its share of unique moments for the Bond series too, a lot of which has its roots in Fleming's novels. We see a Bond who has to reconcile with the death of Vesper, a Bond who admits that the dead 'don't care about vengeance'. Usually with films like LTK revenge had been treated as a goal for Bond, or at least something to give him a bit of extra character motivation. That realisation at the end of QOS, matter of fact as it is, is more Fleming esque to me.

    If anything I think it's in that Bondian 'heightened reality'/escapism where DAD actually fails and adds little, if anything. The satellite/diamond subplot is taken from DAF (same for the gene therapy stuff really). You also get moments such as the chase between Bond and Zao where Bond flips his car by pushing the ejector seat button. While there's always an element of outlandishness in these films - ie. why would Bond be able to commandeer a tank/car/whatever when there'd be no key in the ignition - this makes no sense even in the moment. He'd just smash his head through the ice. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how to craft these scenes. Same for the wave riding scene really.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,429
    Someone needs to write a full on essay about what cinematic Bond is all about, because under my definition die another day, inspite of its flaws, in far more successful cinematic Bond than QoS is, but it can be hard to put into words. One aspect of it is action scenes. Bond action scenes need to have something extra about them, which distinguishes them from a regular action scene you might find in another movie. This can be a unique setting, gimmickery in the form of hardware from Qbranch which other heroes don't have, some other unique circumstance like being handcuffed together whilst driving (okay technically Bourne and Mission Impossible have done this, but bond was first) or driving a car with its back half ripped off and only two wheels etc. Or they can deliberately subvert the trope by having bond drive an ugly, beaten up car, and that in itself makes it bondian. As far as I'm concerned, no action scene from Quantum qualifies as bondian by this standard, and there's no reason jason bourne couldn't be the one driving the Aston in the pretitles, or Jason stathom couldn't be the one blowing up the desert base. But put Jason bourne in the ejector seat flipping car, while a missle zips through the space, that doesn't make sense. Some things are just uniquely Bond.
  • Does this mean the action scenes in GoldenEye's climax (007 vs 006) and OHMSS as a whole aren't Bondian? What about CR's embassy chase or plane chase scene?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 29 Posts: 8,429
    Does this mean the action scenes in GoldenEye's climax (007 vs 006) and OHMSS as a whole aren't Bondian? What about CR's embassy chase or plane chase scene?

    OHMSS is extremely bondian, a fight in the waves at sunrise is inherently bondian. As is skiing down a slope chased by a dozen men with machine guns, throwing people over cliffs, a car chase on a rally track, a toboggan chase, the whole attack on piz Gloria, evading scientists throwing potions, gliding on the ice while firing, spiking people on wall ornaments, basically everything in OHMSS is bondian by its nature. QoS on the other hand has none of that invention, none of the imagination.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,714
    I wouldn't say I agree with Mendes4Lyfe terribly often (my favorite Bond film is Spectre), but I have an idea what he's talking about and sort of feel the same way. Bond action should be peculiar in some way most of the time. But I think QOS meets the standard with the hotel action at the end, the boat chase, and the airplane sequence. One may or may not like these bits, but they feel Bondian to me.

    Your question wasn't for me, but I would say all of CR's action is indeed quite generic, with the possible exception of the parkour sequence, which feels unBondian to me for reasons of characterization. The GE fight is a great generic fight, but in a very Bondian location.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 29 Posts: 8,429
    I wouldn't say I agree with Mendes4Lyfe terribly often (my favorite Bond film is Spectre), but I have an idea what he's talking about and sort of feel the same way. Bond action should be peculiar in some way most of the time. But I think QOS meets the standard with the hotel action at the end, the boat chase, and the airplane sequence. One may or may not like these bits, but they feel Bondian to me.

    Your question wasn't for me, but I would say all of CR's action is indeed quite generic, with the possible exception of the parkour sequence, which feels unBondian to me for reasons of characterization. The GE fight is a great generic fight, but in a very Bondian location.

    Yep.

    Somethings are just uniquely bondian, and to the extent they could be swapped out for another action star its only because that action star was copying bond to begin with.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,460
    You can see in the Pierce films that the producers were trying to play with the formula. We have a former flame return in TND. Too bad it wasn't someone that the audience had met before but no matter it was unexplored territory.

    I love the slap Paris gives and then Bond with the "was it something I said?" "I'll be right back." Punchy and fun dialogue.

    TWINE we see a female baddie in the main role. Sure it's a bit of soap opera but I admire the filmmakers for taking the chance. We see Bond hurt, course it's never really developed out of the first act.

    Even DAD has some new territory of Bond being captured and tortured. Again the execution is lacking but it is there.

    With Craig they got a great deal right. Where Craig's films fall flat for me is the almost obsession that Bond seems to have with Vesper. The callbacks, the mentions of her right up to NTTD all seem a bit, well soap opera to me. Have him visiting the grave of Vesper, like Moore's Bond did with Tracy, but not in Italy with his current girlfriend. Lets not have Blofeld calling out Vesper in his monologue in SP or somehow having pictures of her, and M and Greene and Silva.

    One hopes that the producers return to the continuity of the early Connery films. Have mentions of previous adventures but lets not spend lots of narrative time exploring the feelings of Bond. Lets focus on the development of his character.
  • Posts: 2,017
    @dove Will there have been a Vesper in the next Bond's past?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,460
    Great question @CrabKey I would hope that we leave out the girlfriend stuff in this next film. I think the territory has been mined enough at this point. I would love to see them do something like Tiffany Case from the book series. Have her with Bond at the beginning of the next adventure and then have that dealt with. Then in a few films bring her back like they tried with Paris and add some emotional heft to their story.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,429
    Timothy's 3rd bond would have disappointed fans either way, whether they doubled down on LTK and had another financial failure, or pivoted to goldeneye fun but lacking Brosnans natural smoothness and charm.
  • Posts: 1,416
    Timothy's 3rd bond would have disappointed fans either way, whether they doubled down on LTK and had another financial failure, or pivoted to goldeneye fun but lacking Brosnans natural smoothness and charm.

    the third Dalton movie should have been TND and not GE.
  • Posts: 4,266
    The unmade Bond 17 script (from '91 I think?) does seem is a lot breezier than LTK. And yes, the villain is kind of a prototype Elliot Carver and I think they used a few bits and pieces for TND.

    But I don't know whether that particular script would have been used or not for Dalton's 3rd Bond movie. I don't know whether it would disappointed fans necessarily (very likely it would have been more successful than LTK at any rate) but I don't think it would have been better than GE. It's for the best we got what we got.
  • edited June 13 Posts: 1,416
    Connery's boredom would have worked great in OHMSS. In the novel Bond was tired and he didn't give a shit.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,429
    Connery's boredom would have worked great in OHMSS. In the novel Bond was tired and he didn't give a shit.

    If he could have worked off a few pounds, perhaps. ;)
  • Posts: 1,416
    Connery's boredom would have worked great in OHMSS. In the novel Bond was tired and he didn't give a shit.

    If he could have worked off a few pounds, perhaps. ;)

    Nah,a fat and mature Bond would be more credible.
  • edited June 13 Posts: 353
    Agent005 wrote: »
    A few of my 'controversial' opinions on Bond:

    - I quite liked QoS and regularly rank it in my top ten (along with LtK).
    - I think Donald Pleasance was awful as Blofeld.
    - I liked Madonna's theme for DAD.
    - I think TMWTGG was one of Moore's best performances.
    - I like all of Gardner's Bond novels and think some are just as good as Fleming's.

    My reply is 12 years later!

    Well that makes two of us! I like Die Another Day's theme. The extended remix is cool too.



    Apparently only 10 people on the planet like the song.
    ;))
  • meshypushymeshypushy Ireland
    Posts: 146
    bondywondy wrote: »
    Agent005 wrote: »
    A few of my 'controversial' opinions on Bond:

    - I quite liked QoS and regularly rank it in my top ten (along with LtK).
    - I think Donald Pleasance was awful as Blofeld.
    - I liked Madonna's theme for DAD.
    - I think TMWTGG was one of Moore's best performances.
    - I like all of Gardner's Bond novels and think some are just as good as Fleming's.

    My reply is 12 years later!

    Well that makes two of us! I like Die Another Day's theme. The extended remix is cool too.



    Apparently only 10 people on the planet like the song.
    ;))
    I’m also a fan and remember trying to track down the remixes on vinyl back in the day! If only Madge had stuck to the music…
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited July 7 Posts: 4,679
    My top 11 continuation novels that deserve to be adapted (if EON decides to go this route).
    In no particular order:
    The Anthony Horowitz Trilogy.
    The Union Trilogy.
    Carte Blanche.
    Nobody Lives Forever.
    Icebreaker.
    Solo.
    The Man With The Red Tattoo.

    I wonder if IFP looked at Richard Maibaum for writing Bond Books for them. Probably not. I'm surprised that EON didn't have more movie novelizations. Namely FYEO, OP, AVTAK and SF. Maybe John Gardener didn't want to write them. Or SF's case, a modern author. I'd go with Jeffery Deaver.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 7 Posts: 3,799
    Connery's boredom would have worked great in OHMSS. In the novel Bond was tired and he didn't give a shit.

    If he could have worked off a few pounds, perhaps. ;)

    Nah,a fat and mature Bond would be more credible.

    Then paired it up with a wooden (and dubbed) Brigitte Bardot and you have the most unconvincing love interest with no chemistry (she was originally considered for the role before anyone else, but went on to star with Connery in Shalako, and it's safe to say that whoever thought that Connery's pairing with Bardot could work was implausible, to say the least, they literally have no chemistry, and Bardot's acting could even make Denise Richards' acting as Christmas Jones an Oscar worthy in comparison).

    Diana Rigg is one of the best things ever happened to EON Bond Franchise, and that's thanks to Lazenby getting cast (and the man himself have some credits I'm always giving him).

    But honestly, it's one of the things I find it hard to believe in the book, he had made many irrational decisions in the book that at the end made him pay for it (not getting up on Blofeld and chasing him so he could jump up on his wedding day because he's tired of the Blofeld case and wants to focus on his upcoming wedding with Tracy, for example) not realizing any implications, and what's laughable is, he's the man who was supposed to help a problematic girl like Tracy when he had his own share of problems, sure, it's one of the reasons why I didn't buy their romance in the book (aside from many, many reasons I've explained in this forum, so far).

    I liked that he's Tracy's opposite in the film and became literally her knight in shining armor ready to save her and change her life.

    Believing a mentally checked out Bond would work on a mission is like seeing a Bond with many vices (drinks and smokes a lot) doing some of Craig's stunts, that's why I liked that in YOLT book, M gave Bond a 'suicide' mission, because M knows that Bond is on a verge of self destruction and that mission is something of a 'point of no return'.
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    My top 11 continuation novels that deserve to be adapted (if EON decides to go this route).
    In no particular order:
    The Anthony Horowitz Trilogy.
    The Union Trilogy.
    Carte Blanche.
    Nobody Lives Forever.
    Icebreaker.
    Solo.
    The Man With The Red Tattoo.

    I wonder if IFP looked at Richard Maibaum for writing Bond Books for them. Probably not. I'm surprised that EON didn't have more movie novelizations. Namely FYEO, OP, AVTAK and SF. Maybe John Gardener didn't want to write them. Or SF's case, a modern author. I'd go with Jeffery Deaver.

    I'm in for a Union Trilogy adaptation, but please, make it right, not the one we've got in the Quantum organization.
  • Posts: 1,416
    Now we have a dubbed Bond.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,799
    Now we have a dubbed Bond.

    Makes sense, he's in a disguise, and I could make a case that he had been trained in doing some voice impersonations before starting the mission, after all, we have a Japanese Bond makeup in the previous film which is more implausible.
  • Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.
  • Posts: 7,528
    Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.

    I agree about GE, but not GF. I had fallen out of favour with it for a while, but recent viewing renewed my love for it. I always did prefer FRWL to it, but GF is still classic Bond!
    GE is a bit of a bore for me, with THE most annoying set of characters in one film ( Trevelyn, Boris, Onatopp, that evaluator woman in the opening scene, and King of them all, the bloody awful Jack Wade) , not to mention Brossa who is stiff and wooden, not to mention smug!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,232
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.

    I agree about GE, but not GF. I had fallen out of favour with it for a while, but recent viewing renewed my love for it. I always did prefer FRWL to it, but GF is still classic Bond!
    GE is a bit of a bore for me, with THE most annoying set of characters in one film ( Trevelyn, Boris, Onatopp, that evaluator woman in the opening scene, and King of them all, the bloody awful Jack Wade) , not to mention Brossa who is stiff and wooden, not to mention smug!

    I could not disagree more on the topic of GE, but to each their own, I guess. Especially regarding TWINE, one of least interesting films in the series for me.
  • edited July 14 Posts: 23
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.

    I agree about GE, but not GF. I had fallen out of favour with it for a while, but recent viewing renewed my love for it. I always did prefer FRWL to it, but GF is still classic Bond!
    GE is a bit of a bore for me, with THE most annoying set of characters in one film ( Trevelyn, Boris, Onatopp, that evaluator woman in the opening scene, and King of them all, the bloody awful Jack Wade) , not to mention Brossa who is stiff and wooden, not to mention smug!

    I could not disagree more on the topic of GE, but to each their own, I guess. Especially regarding TWINE, one of least interesting films in the series for me.

    GoldenEye feels like a "Greatest Hits" movie, it was carried by the hype of its release and Brosnan is mostly just relying on his good looks, acting cool and unfazed by everything while gunning down entire armies with an AK. The N64 videogame has also inflated and influenced its rankings.

    In TWINE Bond actually behaves like a spy. His performance is undeniably better and he shows a wide variety of emotions throughout the film. In GE the only time we see Brosnan act this way is when he drops Trev. TWINE actually has intrigue and interwoven plotlines and themes while GE just feels like an action flick. In that regard TWINE is more rewatchable. I would only watch GE when introducing it to someone who's new to the franchise. It's the Goldfinger of the 90's that 'checks all the boxes' so to speak whereas TWINE requires multiple watches to truly appreciate it.

    GE's visuals haven't aged well either. Aesthetically the movie looks drab and grey similar to LTK, both of these movies have a TV series quality look to them. I just can't get over how dated GoldenEye looks, I don't have this problem with TND and TWINE, despite these movies all being in the 90's..

    Ourumov is boring, we've already had "Russian officer gone rogue" with Klebb and Orlov. And the whole hacking computers thing with Boris is cringe. Natalya's acting is wooden.
    Onatopp and Trev carry the movie in my opinion, they're great but Trev's screentime is too little. TWINE definitely has its flaws (Renard is under-utilized and Christmas Jones..) but Brosnan and Sophie Marceau's performance make up for it.
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