Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • edited September 2016 Posts: 676
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    However, I do agree about the Mr White footage in SP. The scene doesn't quite have the impact I think it was intended to have.
    I have sometimes wondered if the footage Blofeld shows was meant to be Vesper's interrogation tape. That would have made more sense, as Blofeld seems to be trying to hurt Bond more than Madeleine. And Madeleine seeing her father kill himself didn't seem like much of a revelation... Bond told her all about this earlier, so why does she look so hurt and betrayed? Why is she sitting all demure next to Blofeld when Bond wakes in the torture chair, like she's now against Bond? It almost seems like the director is playing with the idea that she felt betrayed by Bond somehow.

    Of course, seeing/hearing your father commit suicide would be traumatizing. I thought the scene was horrifying for that reason alone. This was maybe the only drama in the movie that "worked" on me - in the sense that it affected me emotionally the way the filmmakers intended. Craig's reaction helps sell it. The music and look of the scene are really creepy, too. But the footage doesn't really contain any revelation or betrayal for Madeleine... Unlike the Vesper interrogation tape, which would have doubtless contained revelations for Bond and made him feel betrayed.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Madeleine looks demure as Bond is tortured? I'd say she's terrified!
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 676
    When the scene begins, she is sitting parallel to Blofeld, no guards holding her, with her knees pushed together and her hands in her lap. Like she's submitted to this. A front row seat to Bond's capture, staring him right in the eye, almost with contempt.

    When the torture begins, that's when it switches and worry comes to her face. Prior to that, her feelings are ambiguous at best. That's my read of what's happening on screen, anyway.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    She's helpless, afraid and forced to sit next to a madman who had her father killed. How's she supposed to act?
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 7,500
    jobo wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I love Craig's performances as Bond and accepted him from his first line of dialogue in the PTS of CR. However, there a few moments in his era where it seems painfully obvious he supposed to "act" or show off his acting chops. It comes to the point of indicating an intense moment rather than it coming naturally and the scene suffers. I blame the direction and writing over Craig himself. I'm thinking in particular to Bond's reaction when Blofeld shows Dr Swann the footage of White committing suicide. I think that would have been far more intense had he keep it subtle.
    In fairness, under the same circumstances I think Pierce would have shouted, but had Sir Roger Moore played 007 in that scene, he would have kept it simple, serious and far more effective. Along the lines how he played the city hall sequence when Zorin shoots Howe. As it stands, this intense moment in SP is unintentionally funny. I almost start cracking up when they knock Bond down.


    Its a very strange scene in general. I don't understand the point of it, or why it should warrant such an intense reaction from Bond. I don't think Craig is to blame really.

    The point is, on Blofeld's side he's proving his side that something horrific can bring about something beautiful-White killing himself brought Bond to Madeleine-just as his ordered bombings in Africa brought Nine Eyes to life, while on Bond's side, he doesn't want Madeleine to see her father kill himself, and since Bond gave him the gun and almost made a contractual unemotional agreement with him to find her and protect her, she could take umbrage to what he's tried to do. At the start, Madeleine is simply Bond's way of finding Blofeld; only later does something deeper develop, and Madeleine could have been driven by emotion and grief in that moment to look badly on Bond.

    Or, Bond knows the control Blofeld likes to have and how he likes to bring out people's past trauma to his own use, and so he strikes out against Ernst for trying to do that to Madeleine as well, and so Bond makes her look to him instead of the video to make her feel less fear, just as he held her hand in the car ride there.

    I think it's a chilling scene. Bond shares his disgust for Blofeld, Blofeld shuts off his agents' monitors and they turn and face him like robots, Bond is helpless on the floor as Ernst tries to bring trauma on Madeleine, and Léa's jittered performance as the gunshot in the video rings out in the room is perfect, capped off by the concussive sound that hits right as Bond is knocked out and everything turns to black.


    I would buy all that if it wasn't for the fact that Madeleine is portraid as a very strong and independent girl with lots of guts and bravery, who knowingly was raised by a gangster and assassin, being well used to that cynical side of the world. One would think having to save her family with a gun as a child would hardening enough. Yet seeing her dad commit suicide is supposed to completely traumatize her? I just don't buy it, sorry.

    @jobo, I wouldn't say Madeleine got "used to" the life White had as much as she and her mother got sick of it and escaped. It's clear Madeleine is strong and independent, but despised the life her father led, which is why she hid away where he couldn't find her, as she didn't want to have any part of what he was doing, or be connected with him whatsoever.

    She understood him, but that doesn't mean she approved of what he did. It's also part of the reason why she has mixed feelings about staying with Bond near the end of the film. She knows that the life Bond leads is as attached to him as the life her father had was attached to him, and she knows how hard it can be for someone like him to leave it behind. Bond understood that Madeleine would only accept him if he left it all behind, which he does in an effort to explore a new life with her.

    As for her reaction in that HQ scene as the suicide plays, how do you expect her to act as she watches her father prepare to take his own life? It's a situation of tragedy, because though Madeleine didn't approve of White's choices, she wasn't aware of his turn against SPECTRE or the noble reasons he had to welcome death rather than become more of a monster than he already was alongside Blofeld. I think part of Madeleine felt guilty for not reaching out to White, and hated herself for letting her father die thinking she wanted nothing to do with him. White's last decision he made in his life was to condemn Blofeld and SPECTRE for killing innocent women and children, and I'm certain that was because he instantly thought of Madeleine and her mother being victims of the same attacks and couldn't stomach going on. In his last days, White was for the first time in a long time consumed with thoughts and worries about the people his actions had coldly affected, instead of himself. He's not a hero and not meant to be one, just a bad man who realized his evil and tried to gain back the humanity he'd lost somewhere along the way, despite it all being too late. He's one of the biggest figures of tragedy in the series for me.

    With all this knowledge about her father as she confronted the video, Madeleine would have to be cold as ice not to feel shaken by what her father did with her memory in his heart. He's still her father, after all, and obviously she cared for him. She didn't hate him, but their relationship is far more complex than we or Bond could even begin to know, and located somewhere in their time together, was love.

    Madeleine and White's father/daughter relationship felt very genuine to me and reminded me of how real abusive relationships can be, whether they are based on psychological or physical trauma. A child can look at their parent and feel great pain from what they have done to them or others and hate the idea of that coldness existing in them, yet still love them and miss them when they're gone. As with everything relating to humans, our relationships with each other are complicated and never black and white or easy to comprehend.

    That's the feeling I got with Madeleine's view of White too. She hated what he did, but he was still her father and she didn't want to see him die like that no matter what he may have done, especially in front of her eyes.


    Being used to and approve of are two different things.

    I never said that it would not be emotional to watch. I just won't buy your original statement that it would be completely traumatizing. In fact she had many good reasons to watch that footage for the very reasons you describe: It shows that her father did good in the end, and it proves Bond was telling the truth about how he died.

    When I watched the scene first time I thought Blofeld would be better of trying to saw some seeds of distrikt between her and Bond.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    GBF wrote: »
    @thelivingroyale

    I have almost the same feelings about Daniel Craig. I have never felt that he has ever really become Bond. I guess they should have finished the "He is just becoming Bond" story much earlier. Him being still emotionally damaged by Vesper's death makes it even harder to accept him as Bond. At some point in time they should have made him more relaxed. Like Roger Moore he could still have some serious moments (TSWLM or FYEO) which would then even be a bit more effective.

    I wouldn't say Bond still feels emotionally damaged by Vesper. He left that part of his life behind in QoS when he symbolically let go of the locket and got Yusef into custody.

    Bond staring at a tape of Vesper's interrogation in White's old hotel in SP doesn't mean he's still damaged. He still feels things, he's bloody human for crying out loud, but he's not in the fetal position over it. One of the main themes of the film is the dead coming back from the past to disrupt the present, and that was one of Bond's moments. He's obviously dealt with what Vesper brought on him, good or bad, and it's changed him because of that; looking at that tape is just him being confronted with that strange past again which he's repressed.

    The tape itself offers a great symbolic contrast because after Bond gained a bit of respect for White seeing him in the sad state he was, reforming against SPECTRE's sadistic wishes and dying for it, he is reminded how cold White was as well, and how far he was willing to go in the business they share to get what he wanted. Again feeding into the idea that maybe Bond should get out while he still can.

    I think you are right when you say that he is somehow over Vesper's death at the end of QoS and I think that the ending is pretty good (my favourite part of the film actually). Therefore, I enjoy Craig much more in Skyfall an Spectre. But I really wish for a Bond film where Bond is just a normal special agent and not half of the film is about his mental condition. I am honestly a bit tired of the "Can we really trust Bond" story. Maybe I just like a traditional film more where not everything that is going on needs to have a deeper relationship with Bond himself. The first two films were about Bond becoming Bond and Bond's relationship to Vesper, Skyfall was about Bond being too old, his relationship to M and finally his childhood memories. And now Spectre has completely crossed the line by making a film about his former step brother responsible for all Bond's earlier pain who is also trying to kill Bond or his new love interest. It is just too much for me and the emotions are really forced in many parts of his films.

    Don't get me wrong. I like an emotional approach but I like it much more if the emotions are not thrown directly into my face but are more subtle. As I said in FYEO I guess they did it very well when Bond is laying flowers to Tracy's grave, talks to Melina about revenge or when Bond recognises that Ferrara was killed. These are all very quiet moments. When Bond is checking Ferrara's pulses and recognises that Ferrara is dead is a very calm and subtle scene. We have similar scenes in many other Bond films and I personally just prefer these rather calm and quiet scenes.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @GBF, I'd say that the Craig era has kept those quiet moments consistent with how Bond has always acted. CR, QoS, SF, SP are all full of moments where all you have to go on is Bond's expression in the moment to tell how he feels. Dan's Bond especially doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve and his guarded nature makes it inevitable that he'll only display his vulnerabilities or reactions to things on a far more covert nature.

    It's why he doesn't shout or overly express his feelings when Vesper can't be saved in CR, why he locks himself up and acts like he doesn't care about Vesper when he's grieving in QoS or when Fields turns up dead while helping him, why he has to hide his disgust with a throwaway one-liner as Silva kills Severine in SF, and why he simply inspects and then quietly pushes away the memories brought up by the interrogation tape in White's hotel room in SP.

    I can't think of a moment in the Craig era where Bond actually breaks out of that mold and truly releases his emotion. It's just not his way, as his work has crafted him into a machine of repression and chilly calm.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    I agree on what you say. I just find all these sequences to be less effective in the Craig era because I feel some kind of an overkill of emotional elements because Bond himself is so heavily involved in all these tragedies. In a Roger Moore film like FYEO where there are also quiet some comedic or at least less serious scenes and Bond himself is not so much in the focus, the serious and emotional parts are more effective for me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2016 Posts: 28,694
    @GBF, I concede that the Craig era has at times taken things to hyper-personal levels, yes, and the more dramatic focus of the films under Mendes in particular has only reinforced that.

    Can't say I miss the overload of comedic stuff though. Never really fit Bond for me, or how I envision a Bond film being. I can take it when it's not laid on hard and appears in brief moments that feel natural (the Connery films did this well). But the Moore era just took that and ran far, far away with it. I get why some love it, though, and nobody but Roger could have sustained that tonal approach for over a decade.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Moore gets knocked a lot on this forum for being overly jovial, and his later films certainly did have quite a few humourous moments in them - perhaps more than they should have.

    However, when a specific scene called for serious reflection or a subtle emotional response, Roger Moore was absolutely outstanding in my view, and there are several scenes to confirm that. They are actually some of my favourite moments in the entire franchise.
  • Posts: 4,325
    bondjames wrote: »
    Moore gets knocked a lot on this forum for being overly jovial, and his later films certainly did have quite a few humourous moments in them - perhaps more than they should have.

    However, when a specific scene called for serious reflection or a subtle emotional response, Roger Moore was absolutely outstanding in my view, and there are several scenes to confirm that. They are actually some of my favourite moments in the entire franchise.

    Roger Moore's best scenes: Interrogating Anders (TMWTGG), killing Locque (FYEO), with Orlov on the train (OP), centrifuge scene (MR), dialogue scenes with Christopher Walken (AVTAK)
  • Posts: 6,816
    Also in OP, when Octopussy tries to get Bond to join her, "I'm not for hire" and the scene that follows! And when Bond is trying to convince the General about the bomb, i think Moore is really great here! Still say OP is Moores finest hour as Bond!
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondjames wrote: »
    Moore gets knocked a lot on this forum for being overly jovial, and his later films certainly did have quite a few humourous moments in them - perhaps more than they should have.

    However, when a specific scene called for serious reflection or a subtle emotional response, Roger Moore was absolutely outstanding in my view, and there are several scenes to confirm that. They are actually some of my favourite moments in the entire franchise.

    I recall Moore saying if the acting shows, you're not doing it right. That is one element of the art of acting that Roger Moore never has problem with. No matter what scene he plays, whether it be casually walking in a hotel lobby or confronting Orlov, he is extremely natural. I think his natural charms and ability to throw away lines and quips can often make audiences forget how impressive he is in dramatic moments. It is usually subtle: his contempt in FYEO as he tosses the pin to Locque, and his disdain of Zorin is genuine. Criminally overlooked is his excellent performance during the OP bomb defusing. He is plays the urgency trying while to convince the general a bomb has been planted brilliantly, and does whatever he can to get to it before it blows. I love when he turns around and kicks the officer in the groin. There is no indicating in his performance yet, the scene gets knocked because of his clown disguise.
    It's a pity he often only gets praise for the scene with Anya in TSWLM admitting to killing her lover and kicking the car off the cliff. Throughout his seven films there are countless moments of dramatic tension.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Too inconsistent in tone for many, but Moore's serious moments in OP are part of the reason it is one of my favourite Bond films. Most people, understandably, can't overlook the silliness which I also enjoy
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 11,189
    Moore always had an air of confidence about him whichever tone he decided to take.

    I've said this before but, at his best, he had an "old pro" quality to him. That's why I agree on his best performances being TSWLM, FYEO and OP - his gives off a feeling of being more worldly-wise.

    I don't remember Moore's comments on acting but I do remember Michael Caine saying something very similar ("if you are knocking yourself out you are doing it wrong").
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Is this controversial?:
    DN, OHMSS & TLD are the three finest Bond movies ever.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Is this controversial?:
    DN, OHMSS & TLD are the three finest Bond movies ever.

    Depends on your definition of finest.

    I would agree on OHMSS and TLD though, add GE and it's a perfect threesome.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,422
    Add FRWL and CR and you've got yourself a deal!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Controversial means opposite of consensus, so probably not.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691

    Depends on your definition of finest.
    The closest in 'feel' to reading one of the novels.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Also in OP, when Octopussy tries to get Bond to join her, "I'm not for hire" and the scene that follows! And when Bond is trying to convince the General about the bomb, i think Moore is really great here! Still say OP is Moores finest hour as Bond!

    Couldn't agree Moore (do you see what I did there?)

    In the PTS he is absolutely classic Rog throughout right up to 'Fill her up please'.

    He carries that through the early Sotheby's and India scenes and you think you're just getting a standard Rog film. But then it turns on the death of Vijay who is one of one the most amiable Bond allies and Rog seems to take it pretty hard. Once things gets to Germany and the stakes escalate he plays it deadly seriously (gorilla suit apart), the scene with Orlov where he appears horrified at the plan, coldly killing Grishka (no trademark quip just 'And thats for 009'), his exasperation at the various members of the German public he encounters and the idiot on the gate at the base.

    And then we have the piece de resistance, Hitchcockian in its black humour and absurdity, of a desperate Bond dressed as a clown trying to convince the disbelieving general.

    The reason I consider OP's bomb sequences to be possibly the most suspenseful of the series is down to Rog selling it superbly. This is Roger Moore FFS, the most relaxed, most unflappable man that ever lived. If he's looking visibly worried then you'd better believe things are getting pretty serious. Brilliant stuff.
  • Posts: 6,816
    Roger is brilliant in that scene! But credit where its due. John Glen handles that sequence superbly. it is far better than the lame bomb diffusing scene in TSWLM, which, for me, is just dull and without tension!
  • Posts: 15,818
    I must have watched OP hundreds of times, and it never fails to build that suspense right up until the moment that bomb is defused- followed by a sigh of relief.
    Roger is amazing throughout OP.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,422

    The reason I consider OP's bomb sequences to be possibly the most suspenseful of the series is down to Rog selling it superbly. This is Roger Moore FFS, the most relaxed, most unflappable man that ever lived. If he's looking visibly worried then you'd better believe things are getting pretty serious. Brilliant stuff.

    Bolded for truth.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    The love for OP here is refreshing! I think it's Moore in his finest hour.
  • Posts: 11,189
    There seems to be a lot more at stake in the OP bomb sequence.

    Bond is amongst all the innocent civilians who will be killed if the bomb went off. Hence why it probably comes off as more suspenseful than TSWLM.
  • I prefer TSWLM as a film but OP is definitely Moore's best performance (the scene with Orlov on the train is one of the best of the series imo) and the whole train/circus sequence is really tense, clever and inventive. It's one of the finest bits of Bond in the series imo, everything about it is pretty much perfect. Love the exchange with Orlov, the train fight, love the jump from the car to the train, love the stuff with the knife throwing twins ("and that's for 009", perfect), and Bond's final rush to defuse the bomb is so tense. It's actually a lot more tense than the similar scenario in GF (where the tension was building nicely but then the Americans just stroll over and casually turn it off). And Moore plays it to perfection. I agree with @bondjames, he's often criticised for being too jokey but whenever he's in danger he sold it really well. OP is probably the best example of this but I also really like a lot of his villain confrontations once he's been captured/found out (the Zorin scene is probably the best, "if you're the best they've got I'd imagine they'd rather cover up your incompetence").

    OP would be one of my picks for the most underrated film of the series (along with TWINE). Top ten for sure.
  • Posts: 7,500
    I prefer sier Rog in FYEO actually. But the same point remains: His best moments as Bond came when he got to explore the more serious part of the character. It is a shame he didn´t get to do it more often.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    OCTOPUSSY is Moore's best Bond and has always been in my Top 5.

    My ranking pre-Spectre:
    1 GE
    2 TLD
    3 OHMSS
    4 CR
    5 OP

    My ranking pre-CR:

    1 GE
    2 TLD
    3 OP
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I've said this several times before, but the thing that really set Moore's Bond apart and makes him worthwhile to watch is that he was the most worldly or knowledgable of any Bond I can think of.

    Sean had his moments where he produced some information he'd picked up previously like in a briefing with M or when he talks about wines in front of company, but Moore's Bond is the most bilingual, always pulled out a random fact or history about something that you'd think nobody else would know, and truly felt like a man who took in all the cultures of the places he'd been while on the job and let those cultures infuse his own life and how he led it. Moore's Bond felt like a learned student of the world, which is what I think Bond should always be. Before or since though, I don't feel we've seen that matched at this point.
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