Bond/Vesper 2006 relationship - was it convincing?

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Comments

  • lahaine wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I agree. Vespers death was sad but tracy's was sadder.

    Vesper death meant more cause when you have a top actor in Craig shown all the emotion of a man's heart been broken makes all the difference.

    I'm sorry but how did Lazenby not do that? Him saying that they have all the time in the world then crying is probably the saddest moment in the whole series imo.
  • Posts: 161
    lahaine wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I agree. Vespers death was sad but tracy's was sadder.

    Vesper death meant more cause when you have a top actor in Craig shown all the emotion of a man's heart been broken makes all the difference.

    I'm sorry but how did Lazenby not do that? Him saying that they have all the time in the world then crying is probably the saddest moment in the whole series imo.

    Well for me Craig's reaction to Vesper's death is simply the best piece of acting in the Bond series and saddest, that scream under water just shows a mans heart ripping apart . Tracey's death is touching but not the saddest for me just my Opinion .
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 12,837
    But you haven't said what was wrong with Lazenby in that scene. You said Craig was a better actor and that made the difference but you haven't pointed out what Lazenby actually did wrong.
  • But you haven't said what was wrong with Lazenby in that scene. You said Craig was a better actor and that made the difference but you haven't pointed out what Lazenby actually did wrong.

    I have thoughts on this if you're interested, I have some practical experience in this matter, sorry to say.

    You see Craig's Bond alternately flushed with true love, deeply angered by betrayal, and profoundly heartbroken all in the last 15 minutes of the film, holding Vesper's body as it cuts to Mr. White walking away with the money. It all shows on his face and in his body movements the way he holds Vesper. It's powerful. For someone who wasn't sure if they'd go with Fleming's rather mundane original ending, I was pleasantly surprised and touched.

    With George you get a man in shock and a whimper and while it's surprisingly very good considering George was a rookie actor, it's far below what a veteran like Craig brings in a similar circumstance. Any actor would readily see the difference in quality of performance in Craig's favor.

    I'm sorry Peter Hunt didn't use the take where Lazenby was actually crying, then maybe I'd have reason to reconsider my opinion.
  • @SirHenry Fair enough, I see what you mean and I agree Craig was brilliant in that bit, but I prefer the OHMSS ending for the reasons I mentioned. I

    It's funny because I think I'd have preferred Flemings original ending. CRs ending was all big and dramatic and I think a more quiet, low key scene (like in OHMSS), would've been more touching and emotional.

    Sorry about your wife too.
  • Thanks mate.

    To the rest, I can only say that it's easy to get caught up in the fact that Tracy's death occurs at the very end of the film and because of that, some feel it carries more weight to it. CR doesn't allow you to dwell too long because next we have one of Dench's finest scenes and then the capture of Mr. White that sends the movie off on a more upbeat note. Even if one doesn't care for the sinking house and drowning, it's a different day and what worked then for Fleming and audiences then wouldn't necessarily work now. Plus George simply could not have pulled off what Craig did based on what I saw of his work in OHMSS. The "kiss" principle worked best for him. When you have an actor like Craig who can do it all on screen, you have to allow him to use that ability and that's mainly why a simple suicide would have been a waste of his talent.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    Thanks mate.

    To the rest, I can only say that it's easy to get caught up in the fact that Tracy's death occurs at the very end of the film and because of that, some feel it carries more weight to it. CR doesn't allow you to dwell too long because next we have one of Dench's finest scenes and then the capture of Mr. White that sends the movie off on a more upbeat note.

    I'm pretty sure that's intentional because Eon was afraid to end the film on a purely downbeat note: "The bitch is dead."
  • @ echo- I'm sure you are right about that.

    In the context of this thread, it's clear as a cloudless day that the Bond/Vesper relationship worked and drove the film to the high level of respect most have for it as one of the greatest Bond films in the series' long and mostly glorious history. It's much more of a slow burner and anyone I've ever spoken to who hadn't first read the novel completely bought into all of it. And most like myself who had appreciated it. And Arnold's glorious Vesper music added to all of it.
  • Posts: 1,548
    Why hasn't this thread been closed yet? Pointless. Craig and Green shared more chemistry than any other Bond/Bond lady pairing in the entire series. IMHO of course!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    I don't know if it's the best in the series but it's one of the best. A case could also be made for Lazenby/Rigg, Moore/Seymour, Dalton/d'Abo, Brosnan/Scorupco, and pretty much any Connery film (yes, even YOLT--Aki).
  • echo wrote:
    I don't know if it's the best in the series but it's one of the best. A case could also be made for Lazenby/Rigg, Moore/Seymour, Dalton/d'Abo, Brosnan/Scorupco, and pretty much any Connery film (yes, even YOLT--Aki).

    Agreed. People will always have their favorites, but in this thread it seems the supporters far outnumber the dissenters.

  • I thought Vesper was introduced into the film too late to make an impression, the whole thing happens very quickly. I mean in OHMSS Tracy is there in the pts and there in the final scene, so in theory there is plenty of time to get to know her (though the chemistry sucks in that film imo).

    I'd have liked to have seen Vesper on hand, no matter how contrivedly, during Bond's first meeting with M, just so we feel we know her, then later we are coming back to her. Thing is, from her first meeting on the train, she is never away, there is no breathing space.

    As with Campbell's other leading lady in GE, I found the gal's voice a bit brittle and unwarm, she is a real person you can relate to, who you could meet in real life, but not actually fancy imo.
  • What are people's general feelings and thoughts on the finger sucking during the shower sequence? Is Bond being sleazy? I guess its definitely one way to look at the scene; he finds a broken and vulnerable Vesper and essentially uses the situation to make a sexual allusion towards her. In the original script for Cr it says that the moment isn't supposed to be sexual and for those reasons it should be kinda sexy. This puzzled me till I went on youtube to watch the scene again and read through the comments most of which are from women who adore the sequence. The general consensus is that Bond comes across like a great protector and is there is care for Vesper during her troubled hour (mainly because its troubling him more than he's letting on). A lot of ladies seem to want Daniel Craig to suck on their fingers.

    When looking at the moment I guess its important to remember that Vesper just assisted Bond in killing a man and having taken the unusual step of sitting in a shower fully clothed, Bond still decides to join her possibly alluding to the idea that Vesper's reaction to the killing may not be as unusual as she first thought. A lot of critics including Roger Ebert said the scene was surprisingly tender for a Bond movie and he's right, after all now Vesper is dead it is only Bond who knows what happened in the shower that day.
  • Posts: 11,189
    But you haven't said what was wrong with Lazenby in that scene. You said Craig was a better actor and that made the difference but you haven't pointed out what Lazenby actually did wrong.

    I have thoughts on this if you're interested, I have some practical experience in this matter, sorry to say.

    You see Craig's Bond alternately flushed with true love, deeply angered by betrayal, and profoundly heartbroken all in the last 15 minutes of the film, holding Vesper's body as it cuts to Mr. White walking away with the money. It all shows on his face and in his body movements the way he holds Vesper. It's powerful. For someone who wasn't sure if they'd go with Fleming's rather mundane original ending, I was pleasantly surprised and touched.

    With George you get a man in shock and a whimper and while it's surprisingly very good considering George was a rookie actor, it's far below what a veteran like Craig brings in a similar circumstance. Any actor would readily see the difference in quality of performance in Craig's favor.

    I'm sorry Peter Hunt didn't use the take where Lazenby was actually crying, then maybe I'd have reason to reconsider my opinion.

    I think Laz is rather average in OHMSS (he barks his lines in a flat manner through a lot of the film) bar a couple of scenes and one is the end with Tracy. That double take he gives in the car when he realises Tracy isn't moving is heartbreaking and you really feel for him. I think that's as good as anything we've seen from the other actors. However quite a lot of that can be down to Hunt and his desire to prise a good performance from Laz.
  • What are people's general feelings and thoughts on the finger sucking during the shower sequence? Is Bond being sleazy? I guess its definitely one way to look at the scene; he finds a broken and vulnerable Vesper and essentially uses the situation to make a sexual allusion towards her. In the original script for Cr it says that the moment isn't supposed to be sexual and for those reasons it should be kinda sexy. This puzzled me till I went on youtube to watch the scene again and read through the comments most of which are from women who adore the sequence. The general consensus is that Bond comes across like a great protector and is there is care for Vesper during her troubled hour (mainly because its troubling him more than he's letting on). A lot of ladies seem to want Daniel Craig to suck on their fingers.

    When looking at the moment I guess its important to remember that Vesper just assisted Bond in killing a man and having taken the unusual step of sitting in a shower fully clothed, Bond still decides to join her possibly alluding to the idea that Vesper's reaction to the killing may not be as unusual as she first thought. A lot of critics including Roger Ebert said the scene was surprisingly tender for a Bond movie and he's right, after all now Vesper is dead it is only Bond who knows what happened in the shower that day.

    When watching CR in the theatre for the first time I was quite shocked at that scene, and in a good way. Here was Fleming's Bond with his chivalry intact in the modern world. Sucking on Vesper's fingers was an interesting choice - it didn't come across as sexual but it did come across as very a primal, alpha-male behaviour. It made Bond seem very much in charge and protective.

    Interestingly Vesper was originally supposed to be in her underwear in the shower but Green thought she'd either be naked - having started a regular shower and then breaking down - or fully clothed because she was so desperate to get into the shower to get "clean" as fast as possible. I think they made the best choice and thank god for strong actors in CR willing to fight to make the film better.

  • edited January 2013 Posts: 11,189
    Interestingly I've just listened to the audiobook of OHMSS and there's a brief section towards the end of the novel when Bond and Tracy bicker in their hotel room shortly before they get married. For some reason it reminded me of the banter between Bond and Vesper when they were in their hotel room.

    "I have a dinner jacket!?"
    "There are dinner jackets and dinner jackets, this is the latter...and I need you looking like a man who belongs at that table"
    "How the?...its taylored"
  • What are people's general feelings and thoughts on the finger sucking during the shower sequence? Is Bond being sleazy? I guess its definitely one way to look at the scene; he finds a broken and vulnerable Vesper and essentially uses the situation to make a sexual allusion towards her. In the original script for Cr it says that the moment isn't supposed to be sexual and for those reasons it should be kinda sexy. This puzzled me till I went on youtube to watch the scene again and read through the comments most of which are from women who adore the sequence. The general consensus is that Bond comes across like a great protector and is there is care for Vesper during her troubled hour (mainly because its troubling him more than he's letting on). A lot of ladies seem to want Daniel Craig to suck on their fingers.

    When looking at the moment I guess its important to remember that Vesper just assisted Bond in killing a man and having taken the unusual step of sitting in a shower fully clothed, Bond still decides to join her possibly alluding to the idea that Vesper's reaction to the killing may not be as unusual as she first thought. A lot of critics including Roger Ebert said the scene was surprisingly tender for a Bond movie and he's right, after all now Vesper is dead it is only Bond who knows what happened in the shower that day.

    When watching CR in the theatre for the first time I was quite shocked at that scene, and in a good way. Here was Fleming's Bond with his chivalry intact in the modern world. Sucking on Vesper's fingers was an interesting choice - it didn't come across as sexual but it did come across as very a primal, alpha-male behaviour. It made Bond seem very much in charge and protective.

    Interestingly Vesper was originally supposed to be in her underwear in the shower but Green thought she'd either be naked - having started a regular shower and then breaking down - or fully clothed because she was so desperate to get into the shower to get "clean" as fast as possible. I think they made the best choice and thank god for strong actors in CR willing to fight to make the film better.

    The scene is tremendous and possibly the best in CR rivalled only maybe by the moment prior with Bond washing himself off after a particularly dirty kill. The finger scene just got me thinking, it is a rather strange thing to do but when considering what the pair had gone through it would be difficult to imagine how they were thinking.

    I think the intention of the filmamkers was to make Bond seem like a sort of alpha-male taking control of the situation and being protective of her; I mean after all that is the description offered in the script.

  • AliAli
    Posts: 319
    It was certainly more convincing than the "Brief Encounter" dialogue of the novel. I let Fleming off purely on the basis of when it was written. A novel of its time but stilted as a result.
  • AliAli
    edited January 2013 Posts: 319
    What are people's general feelings and thoughts on the finger sucking during the shower sequence?

    My first thought, I'm ashamed to say, was purely practical. "You're sucking an unknown Nigerian man's blood, have you heard of HIV, James?"
  • Ali wrote:
    What are people's general feelings and thoughts on the finger sucking during the shower sequence?

    My first thought, I'm ashamed to say, was purely practical. "You're sucking an unknown Nigerian man's blood, have you heard of HIV, James?"

    haha
    Practically it is an awful decision, thank god for symbolism.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Ali wrote:
    It was certainly more convincing than the "Brief Encounter" dialogue of the novel. I let Fleming off purely on the basis of when it was written. A novel of its time but stilted as a result.
    What do you mean by that statement? Just curious.
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 2,081
    What are people's general feelings and thoughts on the finger sucking during the shower sequence? Is Bond being sleazy? I guess its definitely one way to look at the scene; he finds a broken and vulnerable Vesper and essentially uses the situation to make a sexual allusion towards her. In the original script for Cr it says that the moment isn't supposed to be sexual and for those reasons it should be kinda sexy. This puzzled me till I went on youtube to watch the scene again and read through the comments most of which are from women who adore the sequence. The general consensus is that Bond comes across like a great protector and is there is care for Vesper during her troubled hour (mainly because its troubling him more than he's letting on). A lot of ladies seem to want Daniel Craig to suck on their fingers.

    When looking at the moment I guess its important to remember that Vesper just assisted Bond in killing a man and having taken the unusual step of sitting in a shower fully clothed, Bond still decides to join her possibly alluding to the idea that Vesper's reaction to the killing may not be as unusual as she first thought. A lot of critics including Roger Ebert said the scene was surprisingly tender for a Bond movie and he's right, after all now Vesper is dead it is only Bond who knows what happened in the shower that day.

    It is a great scene. Bond being sleazy? Hell no, not in the slightest. I certainly didn't see it as Bond making "a sexual allusion towards her". The idea that the scene isn't sexual, but is sexy makes perfect sense to me, and also, if those were the intentions I'd say they achieved it. Bond definitely seems like a protector there, and very tender. There's no doubt that a lot of women would indeed "want Daniel Craig to suck on their fingers" (for some weird reason I had never actually thought about that... silly me... but now that you mention it, mmm... ;) ), but none I suspect would actually want to be in a situation like Vesper was to have their fingers sucked by anyone.

    Why would have Vesper thought "at first" that her reaction to witnessing a killing was "unusual"? Any normal person who has never killed anyone and never seen anyone being killed (quite brutally and so close) would surely be shocked by the experience.
  • AliAli
    edited January 2013 Posts: 319
    Ali wrote:
    It was certainly more convincing than the "Brief Encounter" dialogue of the novel. I let Fleming off purely on the basis of when it was written. A novel of its time but stilted as a result.
    What do you mean by that statement? Just curious.

    The dialogue was very "stiff upper lip" 1940s. Much like the dialogue in Lean's Brief Encounter. Two people unable to show there real emotions due to being emotionally stunted as a product of an era that seemed to frown on such behaviour.

    The movie Vesper was a strong, independent minded three dimensional character. The book Vesper came across like a 10 year old child, unable to make her own mind up about anything. That she was a double agent seemed incredibly unlikely as it would mean she would have to occasionally make a decision on her own.

    By DAF, Fleming painted a picture of Tiffany that was far deeper and more thoroughly fleshed out.
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 4,400
    Tuulia wrote:
    Why would have Vesper thought "at first" that her reaction to witnessing a killing was "unusual"? Any normal person who has never killed anyone and never seen anyone being killed (quite brutally and so close) would surely be shocked by the experience.


    I was referencing the CR script again, it says that vesper is shocked that bond isn't questioning her behaviour and instead of perceiving it as odd he decides to join her, this indicates to her that all this killing marlarky is actually affecting him more than he's letting on. Therefore showing her breakdown isn't just some girly breakdown and that even the col isolated spy isn't taking it very well.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Ali wrote:
    Ali wrote:
    It was certainly more convincing than the "Brief Encounter" dialogue of the novel. I let Fleming off purely on the basis of when it was written. A novel of its time but stilted as a result.
    What do you mean by that statement? Just curious.

    The dialogue was very "stiff upper lip" 1940s. Much like the dialogue in Lean's Brief Encounter. Two people unable to show there real emotions due to being emotionally stunted as a product of an era that seemed to frown on such behaviour.

    The movie Vesper was a strong, independent minded three dimensional character. The book Vesper came across like a 10 year old child, unable to make her own mind up about anything. That she was a double agent seemed incredibly unlikely as it would mean she would have to occasionally make a decision on her own.

    By DAF, Fleming painted a picture of Tiffany that was far deeper and more thoroughly fleshed out.

    It has been a while since I read the novel, but I definitely get a feel for what you are saying, @Ali.

    When I read it I found Bond and Vesper's meeting and falling into love all too quick and not fleshed out enough. Fast forward and Vesper whines like a baby the entire last part of the novel, building and building in annoyance until the suicide. Eva really did something right with the character, and improved her 1000 times over. I will have to reread it again of course, but that stuff stuck out to me for sure.
  • One thing I never really thought about until looking over the script was in the scene directly following and Bond and Vesper's moment in the shower. In the script it is made clear that the pair did not sleep with each other is that reference clear in the film? The fact that the thought never really crossed by mind by over 6 years may answer the question but watching over it again I'm unsure.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I don't think they did. It was just a tender moment for both of them, and I think Bond waited until the end of the mission to sleep with her, kind of what I see Fleming's Bond doing as he states with Solitaire in LALD (and he does just that).
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 2,081
    Tuulia wrote:
    Why would have Vesper thought "at first" that her reaction to witnessing a killing was "unusual"? Any normal person who has never killed anyone and never seen anyone being killed (quite brutally and so close) would surely be shocked by the experience.


    I was referencing the CR script again, it says that vesper is shocked that bond isn't questioning her behaviour and instead of perceiving it as odd he decides to join her, this indicates to her that all this killing marlarky is actually affecting him more than he's letting on. Therefore showing her breakdown isn't just some girly breakdown and that even the col isolated spy isn't taking it very well.

    The script said that? Seriously? Oh... well, that sounds idiotic to me, frankly. If the script portrayed her as an insecure idiot who thinks Bond is a brainless ass, then thank goodness the film didn't follow the script there.
    One thing I never really thought about until looking over the script was in the scene directly following and Bond and Vesper's moment in the shower. In the script it is made clear that the pair did not sleep with each other is that reference clear in the film? The fact that the thought never really crossed by mind by over 6 years may answer the question but watching over it again I'm unsure.

    I thought it was obvious from the film that they didn't have sex then - and not until months later (I presume it must have been months).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Didn't buy it. Mostly because of Ms. Green.
  • chrisisall wrote:
    Didn't buy it. Mostly because of Ms. Green.

    I think Greene is great in the scene. It's such a stand-out moment for her, her character loses her cool demeanour and is completely broken. It's a scary thing to witness and something she is clearly having rouble coming to terms with and she sells it so well, I feel my heart wrench for Vesper as she sits broken in the shower with Bond coming to aid her.

    Yeah coming to think of it it does seem obvious that Bond is merely checking up on her the following morning after the previous nights events to see if was was alright.
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