Which death affected you more ? Tracy or Vesper ? UPDATE : Or M ?

Ytterbium

Quoting DarthDimi:

Quoting Ytterbium: The relationship Bond-Bond girl that affects me the most is the one with Vesper, since they spend so much time to get toward each other.

I believe Bond and Tracy spent more time getting close to one another. Real close I mean, unless the one night stand counts. Then my point is invalid. :-)

When I say, "getting close to one another", I mean that Tracy and Bond become really close after the "We have all the time in the world moment" (and it's quite normal). It happens quite early in the movie, and after that, they trust each other, miss each other, sleep together, get married... They act like a couple, and that sad to see it coming to a brutal end.
I liked this, but I was more thrilled by the relationship between Bond and Vesper, involving trust, challenges, love, sympathetic feelings after the staircase fights, and the mystery of Vesper's past.

Quoting DarthDimi:

Quoting Ytterbium: But the swimming pool moment just spoil the effect of Vesper death, and we go too quickly to meet Mister White.

I disagree. The film is being stretched at this point. Bond holds her in his arms, we have the talk with M and then the teaser with White. I don't think the pacing is wrong. Any more time grieving over Vesper at the scene of her death would have been pushing our patience I think.

I didn't mean exactly that about the pacing. I was trilled by the fight of the building, moved by Bond, bringing Vesper out of the water and crying, and excited to see the transition toward Mister White. This was perfect, but I think that the all timing was spoiled by the underwater scene. Too romantic, too much oxygen in Bond's lungs, water too clear. I expected something really striking after the elevator falling in the water, and Bond jumping after it. Let's say that the last glimpse of Vesper could have be more moving, by being less "conventional". Don't get me wrong, I don't want a Bourne's death like in the Bourne supremacy, and compared to a lot of other deaths in films, Vesper's one remains of excellent quality.

But maybe Vesper's death moves me less, because Bond go on just after it, setting new goals and directions. Paradoxically, I was more moved in QOS when Vesper is evoked, and when Bond definitely bury her by throwing the necklace.

As a matter of fact, Casino Royale is not as much as Bond losing its love, but Bond becoming Bond after love, death and betrayal, and fighting enemies. In this sense, It's normal that Vesper's death let place to more emphasising on Bond getting angry for revenge and solace. On the other hand, I found myself at the end of OHMSS very moved, seeing a love story reaching a sad end.

Chuck

Quoting Ytterbium: But maybe Vesper's death moves me less, because Bond go on just after it, setting new goals and directions. Paradoxically, I was more moved in QOS when Vesper is evoked, and when Bond definitely bury her by throwing the necklace.

This is a big part of the reason why I wish that they had planned out QoS being a direct sequel to CR beforehand, so that the death of Vesper could have been the shocking and moving moment that it could and should have been without having any extraneous plot developments taking away from it at the end.

What I wished they had done would have been to reconfigure the sinking house sequence so that it could have been done without Vesper present, only for Bond to return to the hotel afterward to find Vesper dead in a way that was more inline with the novel, and then end the film right there with him saying the final line of the novel into the phone as the film faded to the credits. Even though it would have been an ending that we kind of already knew was coming because the novel ends that way, it still would have been the punch in the gut that Vesper's death in the film never managed to be because it was all wrapped up in an action sequence. Then they could have done the end of CR as well as the car chase at the beginning of QoS and pretty much kept everything else the same.

007manny

tracys death was more of an impact for me i thought he really loved her, i think thats cause of the great job diana rigg did in the movie.
for that reason alone even though he had only one bond movie lazemby had an important movie to debut and become a part in, even though it may not be one of my faves top 10 wise it is defenitly important for that reason alone

LAWNMOWERMAN

Tracy's death hands down had the most affect... her death wasn't a shock because i knew she would die.

but what really got to me was BOND's reaction
watching him just crumble and break down...

DoubleOhhSeven

Tracy. The fact that Bond didn't refer to her as "the bitch" probably has something to do with it. Plus Vesper betrayed him.

thelordflasheart

Tracy's. While Bond seemed more open with Vesper his belief (and the audience's) that she was a "bad guy" at the end meant less of a feeling of sadness and more of a feeling of "what the hell is going on?!". It was still emotionally affecting but was more complex than Tracy's death.

Although Bond wasn't as emotionally open with Tracy - really, he didn't interact much differently with her than with any other Bond Girl (romantic montage notwithstanding) - it had far more of an impact IMHO. It was an old fashioned, simple, tragic ending where the woman just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - or more accurately with the wrong man. Tracy never did anything to deserve what happened to her which makes it far more tragic. With Vesper you can argue back and forth about the shades of grey in Vesper's actions and motivations.

When I first saw OHMSS the ending was a complete surprise to me. For some reason I felt oddly affected and a little down for a couple of days afterwards. But when you're 12 years old you live vicariously through the films you watch much more than when you're an adult.

echo

What I wished they had done would have been to reconfigure the sinking house sequence so that it could have been done without Vesper present, only for Bond to return to the hotel afterward to find Vesper dead in a way that was more inline with the novel, and then end the film right there with him saying the final line of the novel into the phone as the film faded to the credits.

Yes, yes, yes!

I think they wanted to avoid a total downer ending because OHMSS was less financially successful, so they added on the final Mr. White scene.

NicNac

Yes @Chuck that sounds more like it. Or at least when Vesper pushes away from Bond in the cage and we see her hair floating and her eyes wide open it would have been more powerful if Bond simply realised at that moment he couldn't get to her. That image of Vesper in the cage was quite powerful and should have been the last image we see of her.

kataskopos007

Εγω λυπηθηκα την Vesper γιατι νομιζω οτι ηταν η μονη με συναιστιματα και ηταν πολυ ομορφη.

barryt007

Εγω λυπηθηκα την Vesper γιατι νομιζω οτι ηταν η μονη με συναιστιματα και ηταν πολυ ομορφη.

Er...i know quite a bit about Greece but that's beyond me matey - try English !!

007JamesBond

Without a doubt Tracy's death had a bigger effect than Vesper's. End of the movie, the last scene of what you would have expected to be a happy ending, GL's emotion, his words, it pulls the heartstrings every time I see it.

DarthDimi

Εγω λυπηθηκα την Vesper γιατι νομιζω οτι ηταν η μονη με συναιστιματα και ηταν πολυ ομορφη.

Is this modern Greek because I used to study ancient Greek and I find some resemblances.

Anyway, please spread every message in English for otherwise people will accuse you of spamming, sir. :)

thelordflasheart

Yes @Chuck that sounds more like it. Or at least when Vesper pushes away from Bond in the cage and we see her hair floating and her eyes wide open it would have been more powerful if Bond simply realised at that moment he couldn't get to her. That image of Vesper in the cage was quite powerful and should have been the last image we see of her.

NicNac, I understand why you're saying that and agree with you in theory. But the problem with that scenario is that Craig's Bond had been shown - quite powerfully - to be someone who NEVER GIVES UP. Given that Vesper was the love of his life I wouldn't have bought him just leaving her there.

bond_azoozbond

This question should be asked for bond himself !!

00Beast

Hmm...both were really gripping scenes that were well-portrayed, but as I can only pick one, I'd pick Tracy. It's so lightning quick and shocking that you don't have time to recover before the end credits. It was also so unfair and unjust, considering that Tracy had not done anything to deserve the death. Vesper sort of had a gray area where we could raise an eyebrow about her innocence.

Tracy

Only seen CR 2 times so far so Tracy for now.

Ellipsis

Neither affected me, like most I knew she (Vesper) was going to die; But seeing CR with two friends and my wife, none have read the books and knew nothing about Vesper's death, were surprised when Bond didn't save her and we didn't get Bond meets girl, Bond kills baddies and Bond ends film in clutches of girl.

Tracy's death was the best, sudden and brutal. A great end to a great film and a great shame it was never followed up.

forgotmyusername

I was more upset when they shot up the Aston in OHMSS. At least Tracy stopped the seat from being shot to hell. Good on her.

Oh yes Tracy, she loved our Bond. Vesper had it coming and was in love with some other gent of ill repute.

SharkBait

Vesper's death takes the top spot here. Hauntingly beautiful underwater scenery, Craig-Bond trying to furiously get to his love and watching his love inhale all that water and slowly fading away from this world. Also, I love Arnold's music in this bit.

But I must confess that I'm one big soft wuss, and have shred a tear while watching both of these death scenes.

OHMSS69

I have to say Tracy by far. Her death was so sudden and tragic as she was such a developed character and she had gone from being a depressed suicidal mess to a woman with a bright future.
when she tells her husband, "you've already given me a wedding present, a future"
She goes on plucking that flower saying , "he loves me ..." then to be gunned down so suddenly. Her death really pulls the heart strings and stings whenever i watch that movie.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

I have mixed feelings about this premise. I'd have to say Tracy, but that's mostly because I saw OHMSS in 1970 and hadn't yet read the books to know the story. I remember leaving the theater thinking it was so sad and depressing and shocking. She was truly a victim and much more sympathetic a character than Vesper. And by the time CR came out, I knew that Vesper would betray Bond and ultimately commit suicide out of guilt, so it hardly had the same shock value and I was more looking forward to seeing how Craig would handle the heavy emotions of the scene.

If we compare the scenes on pure acting, Craig's reactions wipe the floor with Lazenby's. No brainer. A real actor versus a rookie hack. I still find myself far sadder over Tracy lying there dead than what Lazenby is doing to make me feel even worse. He adds nothing to that and it's a good thing because George didn't have to do much more than just look like he was in shock. Craig had to act the full range of disbelief, desperation, fear, heartbreak, and eventually anger in less than 2 minutes, and he pulls it off in a manner befitting a great actor. It's not Vesper's death but DANIEL CRAIG that makes her death shocking and felt in the heart of the viewer, no small feat when you know and are expecting what is going to happen.

QsAssistant

To me it's Vespers. This was Bond's first love and he was ready to give his job up for her. When he says that line about how his armor has fallen off (or however it went), really shows us that he is truly in love. Then to have that taken away by betrayal and guilt hurts more in the end. It also helps him become the man he, and more importantly we, need him to be.

SaintMark

Tracy because the movie actually invested in the relationship between Bond & tracy, and the scene between James and Moneypenny at the wedding was a beauty. And when she s shot Lazenby does brilliantly show his grief. Diana Rigg is brilliant.

Vesper too obvious, a brilliant actress that cannot show what she's capable of due to directorial choices she remains two dimensional. Craig is great but she's just there and gave me very little to care about.

doubleoego

I agree with sir Hillary in that Vesper's death was carried by Craig's spectacular acting. His reaction after trying to ressucitate her is hauntingly well executed. His piercing blue eyes, conveying an array of different emotions in seconds is what drives the impact right into one's lower extremeties.
However, the death of Tracy for me is far more hard hitting and that is because Tracy herself was far more developed and a significantly more interesting character who added more to the film overall than vesper did

LeChiffre

I still shed a tear when I see both scenes! Both played by fabulous actresses. Also it was George's finest moment in OHMSS! The Vesper scene was made even more poignant though by Bond's "the jobs' done, the bitch is dead"! Said with extreme conviction by Craig.

Goldeneye95

For me it's Tracy. James Bond & Tracy loved one another. This was 007's wife. They got married & had plans to have kids. Everything was going great until Blofeld & his henchmen tried to gun down 007, but in the process Tracy was shot in the head. You can fell Bond's emotions. I try not to cry when I watch that scene. One of the sadess moments in the Bond films.

Baltimore_007

It has to be Eva Green. I didn't really think much of Diana Rigg's character, and she was a bit dull and mundane of all things, and didn't feel too upset when she was killed at the end

Lynd on the other hand, what a great demise, if those are the right words. Poignant and memorable, what an epic sequence that you remember, even if the whole 'sinking building' scenario was a nonsense, but it's a damn better and memorable event than OHMSS. I actually felt something for the Green character, that wasn't evident with Rigg in 1969. Just (the latter) never gave off any emotion or feeling

pachazo

I would have to vote for Tracy. It's not the easiest choice to make because I think that these two were the two best Bond girls ever. Not only because of the performances of both actresses but also because JB fell so deeply in love with both of them that it made me care about them even more. However, like some of the other posts above me have stated, the first time that I saw OHMSS I had not yet read the novels and Tracy's death at the end absolutely shocked me. Didn't see that one coming!
By the time CR had come out I had discovered Fleming and knew it was coming. Well I suspected it anyway. The ending dragged on a bit so I wasn't exactly sure what they were going to do! Vesper was also a traitor and this surely made me feel less sorry for her. Not that I wanted her to die of course. Obviously Craig is a better actor than Lazenby but I thought that George's performance in that last scene was good. It showed the potential he had as Bond and perhaps if he had stuck around he might have made a really good one.

thelivingroyale

Tracy. The only moment in the series when I actually feel sad.

Her death was shocking, it comes out of nowhere and Lazenby sells it like a pro. Barry's music helps too.

Vesper's death was all big and dramatic, and that meant you could see it coming. Her death was just so obvious, and the fact that it was wrapped into a big action scene didn't help. I think a more low key death like Tracy's would have made it sadder.

Plus I prefer Bond and Tracy's relationship, I buy into it more. Despite him cheating on her at Piz Gloria I thought it did actually feel like Bond and Tracy were falling in love. Them getting married also helped the impact I think.

I never bought into the Bond/Vesper relationship. They flirt and argue, she sees Bond kill somebody and he comforts her, Bond ends up getting tortured, they have sex, suddenly they're in love, she betrays him and then she dies. The end.

RogueAgent

I think it is Tracey, due to the fact that Bond married her above everything else! And it was just so well done for that this is my choice.