Are there distinct INTERNATIONAL preferences regarding the Bond actors?

edited January 2012 in Bond Movies Posts: 53
I've just returned from a trip to Vienna. One evening I overheard a group of local 20- to 30-somethings decrying the choice of Skyfall for the next Bond film. I was then taken aback by the vociferous condemnation of Daniel Craig as "the worst 007 of all". Noticing my unconcealed interest in the discussion, one of the 13-strong group drew me into the conversation. Their interest heightened when they learned I was from England, "the home of James Bond". After an extremely well-informed general 007 discussion, I asked whom the group rated the top Bond actors. Their emphatic consensus was interesting: 1. Pierce Brosnan, 2. Roger Moore, 3. Sean Connery, 4. George Lazenby, 5. Timothy Dalton, 6. Daniel Craig. Perhaps most interestingly, there was also agreement that the Bond producers, Broccoli & Wilson, have lost touch with their core audience and, in seeking to make the Craig Bond grittier, more violent and more realistic, have lost sight of the fact that James Bond (even in Ian Fleming's eyes) is, at heart, a fantasy figure whose appeal is cross-generational.
I accept, of course, that I am reporting the opinions of a mere 13 Viennese and, as such, this hardly constitutes a true representative section of the Austrian populace. However, I wonder if any other MI6-ers have observed similar international preferences?
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Comments

  • Posts: 140
    Well Purplecipher I have made the point before that in my view the general public have not accepted Daniel Craig as Bond. I base this on conversations I have heard, comments made if a Bond film is mentioned in passing and the like. Brosnan is still held in high esteem.

    I also don't advertise the fact that I am a Bond fan whenever Bond is discussed. It is interesting to get an unbiased view as opposed to the Craig loyalists that inhabit this website.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    Grant wrote:
    I have made the point before that in my view the general public have not accepted Daniel Craig as Bond.

    I agree, his looks still causes problem whenever I talk to people where I live about his Bond.

    But no-one here can say whether this is true or not. You'd have to ask millions of people about Craig's looks, and frankly no member on this forum knows that many people.

    There is no way to know if Craig's looks has been accepted - I searched his fan pages on Facebook, and it seems only 60 000 thousands or so people are a fan, which is a bigger representation than this forum, but still nowhere close of reality. Not even the IMDB score of 7.9 for CR is representative of reality.
  • Posts: 140
    It is not only his looks (though I did spend spend a bewildering time gazing at Daniel on the Tattoo poster) but the look and feel of his films. They are a huge departure from all the rest of the films, a change that many of the public did not want or expect.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 11,175
    I think, by and large, Craig has been accepted by the public. Most people I've talked to haven't had many problems with him. HOWEVER the vast majority I've spoken to weren't happy with QoS and that includes older people who remember the Sean Connery days.

    One local person I know (nice chap, frames our family photo's and remembers queing up to see Goldfinger as a teenager) had this to say:

    -Connery was the classic 007
    -Moore's films blended into one
    -Dalton - good actor but too dull
    -Brosnan was great - almost perfect
    -Didn't really mention Craig but HATED QoS - thought it was too violent.

    Regardless of what most people say Dalton is still somewhat underappreciated by the general public. Even people who like Craig aren't as fond of Dalton.

    I've done this before but I think the "public ranking" of the Bond actors is as follows:

    -Sean Connery
    -Daniel Craig
    -Pierce Brosnan
    -Roger Moore
    -Timothy Dalton
    -George Lazenby
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited January 2012 Posts: 13,305
    The box office totals seem to suggest otherwise and that he has been accepted by the public on the whole. Yes, of course, some don't approve of him, but that has, and always will, be the case. From what I understand many love the new style of the films and hail Craig as a great actor to play Bond and love Casino Royale as a film, not only a Bond film.

    Skyfall and his subsequent films will only prove this yet again. Why can't some people accept this fact? Are they in denial? I'd really like to know what goes on in their heads...

    I think we all know where this thread is going.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think, by and large, Craig has been accepted by the public. Most people I've talked to haven't had many problems with him.

    So you talked to the 90 millions+ who saw CR ?
    Samuel001 wrote:
    The box office totals seem to suggest otherwise and that he has been accepted by the public on the whole.

    DAD grossed $450 millions+, yet judging by this website it is the worse of them all. TLD and LTK are the least grossing films of the franchise, yet judging by this website, they are 2 of the best outings in the franchise. How can you judge a film by box office numbers ? Is Transformers 3 a masterpiece for earning $1 billion at the box office ?

    And again : there is no way to prove Craig has been accepted by a majority. It's not with the minuscule amount of people on Bond websites, Craig fan pages on Facebook and minuscule amount of IMDB voters for CR that you can credibly say that a majority of moviegoers who saw CR accepted Craig as Bond, or even liked the film.
  • Posts: 12,241
    my girlfriend watched CR and QOS within the last week. The first time she had watched a Bond film since the moore days. So as you can imagine i was curious as to what she made of the films?

    On reflection? She said she enjoyed CR thanks to the story between Bond and Vesper. She also thought that it had the right amount of action in relation to the drama. She did say the card game was tough as she didn't know how to play texas hold em! lol

    On QOS? She also enjoyed that too but her only criticism was the beginning of the movie was a little too frenetic! But enjoyed the movie more than CR! Which i was surprised at. She is aware of Skyfall but disappointed that it does not continue the story arc of Quantum. But her curiosity has been aroused by the plot of Skyfall.

    Funnily enough she likes Mr White as do i! At no point did she think DC was either attractive or not. She just enjoyed the escapism and relative realism of a Bond movie!. Something i found very refreshing.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    The bottom line is no-one here can demonstrate whether Craig has been accepted by the general public or not. This website is not representative of reality, the IMDB voters who voted a 7.9 score for CR are not representative of reality, the box office numbers are not representative of reality.
  • Posts: 11,175
    The bottom line is no-one here can demonstrate whether Craig has been accepted by the general public or not.

    You must have talked to some "commoners" about Bond and DC? What have they said?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    BAIN123 wrote:
    The bottom line is no-one here can demonstrate whether Craig has been accepted by the general public or not.

    You must have talked to some "commoners" about Bond and DC? What have they said?

    It is about 45% pro Craig, and 55% who disagree. Then again I've only talked about CR to 100 person or so.

    ---

    You can't say that 0.5% of those who saw CR in theaters and voted on IMDB, go on fan pages on facebook or go to Bond forums are representative of reality... In my country, elections are validated if atleast 25% of voters go vote... So 0.5%? It's representative of nothing... or only what reclused Bond websites members think of Craig.

  • Posts: 11,175
    I get the impression Craig isn't doing too badly (even if a lot of people were underwelmed by Quantum).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I get the impression Craig isn't doing too badly (even if a lot of people were underwelmed by Quantum).

    Where you live perhaps. But can you or me or anyone here speak for the 91 millions + who saw CR in theaters ?

    Please mind that I am not saying that no-one has accepted Craig as Bond. I am just saying it's impossible to know whether or not he's been accepted by the general public.
  • Posts: 12,241
    i think he is doing ok. I think QOS was just bad timing in terms of writer's strike, and also how well CR was recieved by fans and critics.

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,305
    Samuel001 wrote:
    The box office totals seem to suggest otherwise and that he has been accepted by the public on the whole.

    DAD grossed $450 millions+, yet judging by this website it is the worse of them all.

    The public liked it at the time, that's what it shows, and is, as you know, the point I was making. Don't bring fan's opinions into this, what you or I think don't matter.

    TLD and LTK are the least grossing films of the franchise, yet judging by this website, they are 2 of the best outings in the franchise. How can you judge a film by box office numbers ? Is Transformers 3 a masterpiece for earning $1 billion at the box office ?.

    Again, the public liked it at the time it was released.
    And again : there is no way to prove Craig has been accepted by a majority. It's not with the minuscule amount of people on Bond websites, Craig fan pages on Facebook and minuscule amount of IMDB voters for CR that you can credibly say that a majority of moviegoers who saw CR accepted Craig as Bond, or even liked the film.

    If you did a survery or went out and about and asked people "Do you like Daniel Craig as Bond", yes or no, the majority would say yes. I'd bet money on that. Just look at the public's change from hating him before the film, to then loving him, afterwards.

    See, I knew where this thread was going.
  • Posts: 140
    My brother loves Craig's Bond, however, this is a chap that will not look at any other Bond film. He dislikes them intensely.

    I know my father would not have approved of Craig for several reasons but I suppose everybody has their own picture of Mister Bond.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    RogueAgent wrote:
    and also how well CR was recieved

    Well, the amount of people that expressed their views on CR on the internet compared to the total amount of people who saw CR is minuscule.
    Samuel001 wrote:
    If you did a survery or went out and about and asked people "Do you like Daniel Craig as Bond", yes or no, the majority would say yes. I'd bet money on that. Just look at the public's change from hating him before the film, to then loving him, afterwards.

    What public ? Has the 91 millions + who saw CR all gave their opinions on the film and on Craig ? Or are you talking about the 0.5% of CR moviegoers who have expressed their views on the film online ? (ie. here, other Bond forums, IMDB...) It's evident that Bond forums members are mostly pro-Craig, but these are reclused groups of hardcore Bond fans in no-way representative of reality.
  • Posts: 140
    Samuel I don't know if you can say the public hated him before Casino Royale. There were very vocal elements (DanielCraigisnotBond) that got a lot of press space but I don't think the public really cared that much. And I think it is the same with people singing his praises, there are very vocal elements (such as the people on this website) that say he is the best thing since Brosnan. It doesn't make it so.
  • Posts: 12,241
    Grant wrote:
    My brother loves Craig's Bond, however, this is a chap that will not look at any other Bond film. He dislikes them intensely.

    I know my father would not have approved of Craig for several reasons but I suppose everybody has their own picture of Mister Bond.
    To be fair? He said his favourites are DN and FRWL if memory serves me right? Also Pierce Brosnan has not watched the last two. I'm sure i read his kids have watched them but he didn't want too.

    DC is his own guy who is making his own mark on the series which i say is fair enough whether you agree with it or not.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    Grant wrote:
    Samuel I don't know if you can say the public hated him before Casino Royale. There were very vocal elements (DanielCraigisnotBond) that got a lot of press space but I don't think the public really cared that much. And I think it is the same with people singing his praises, there are very vocal elements (such as the people on this website) that say he is the best thing since Brosnan. It doesn't make it so.

    Exactly. You can't base the general public's views on Craig and CR by the minuscule amount of people who saw CR and expressed their opinions online. Nearly 100 million people saw CR in theaters... you can't say that hardly 400 thousands that expressed their views online, are representative of these 100,000,000.
  • Posts: 12,241
    RogueAgent wrote:
    and also how well CR was recieved

    Well, the amount of people that expressed their views on CR on the internet compared to the total amount of people who saw CR is minuscule.
    Samuel001 wrote:
    If you did a survery or went out and about and asked people "Do you like Daniel Craig as Bond", yes or no, the majority would say yes. I'd bet money on that. Just look at the public's change from hating him before the film, to then loving him, afterwards.

    What public ? Has the 91 millions + who saw CR all gave their opinions on the film and on Craig ? Or are you talking about the 0.5% of CR moviegoers who have expressed their views on the film online ? (ie. here, other Bond forums, IMDB...) It's evident that Bond forums members are mostly pro-Craig, but these are reclused groups of hardcore Bond fans in no-way representative of reality.

    i am guessing thats from the fans point of view? As Bond appeals to all ages and we have all grown up with our own respective Bonds? Its fair to say that you will not please everybody.

    But i cannot recall a negative review of CR?

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited January 2012 Posts: 13,305
    Grant wrote:
    Samuel I don't know if you can say the public hated him before Casino Royale. There were very vocal elements (DanielCraigisnotBond) that got a lot of press space but I don't think the public really cared that much. And I think it is the same with people singing his praises, there are very vocal elements (such as the people on this website) that say he is the best thing since Brosnan. It doesn't make it so.

    There was a lot of dislike from many sectors of the public from what I remember. At the time, I'd even hear it on the street, how they don't like the 'blond Bond, who was too old, crap actor' and all that jazz.
    RogueAgent wrote:
    and also how well CR was recieved

    Well, the amount of people that expressed their views on CR on the internet compared to the total amount of people who saw CR is minuscule.
    Samuel001 wrote:
    If you did a survery or went out and about and asked people "Do you like Daniel Craig as Bond", yes or no, the majority would say yes. I'd bet money on that. Just look at the public's change from hating him before the film, to then loving him, afterwards.

    What public ? Has the 91 millions + who saw CR all gave their opinions on the film and on Craig ? Or are you talking about the 0.5% of CR moviegoers who have expressed their views on the film online ? (ie. here, other Bond forums, IMDB...) It's evident that Bond forums members are mostly pro-Craig, but these are reclused groups of hardcore Bond fans in no-way representative of reality.

    First, what is it with you and online? I haven't once mentioned anything about online. Give it a rest.

    Post-cinema surveys at the time, suggested those who saw Casino Royale loved both the film and Craig. I'll show you Skyfall's when they come out, providing the film gets good reviews as good reviews normally mean, guess what, the public liked it!

    As for, "what public" how about the media? They went nuts over this awful actor being cast and public latched onto it. Craig was guilty until proven innocent.

    Going by your quote "Please mind that I am not saying that no-one has accepted Craig as Bond. I am just saying it's impossible to know whether or not he's been accepted by the general public" we'll never and have never had, any idea if the public likes an actor, film or anything for that matter, or not. That's were reviews come in and how we know what's hot or not. They give on all round consensus on a product.

    I'd go into it more but you'd have to be stupid not to understand what I'm talking about and I know you're not stupid @DaltonCraig007, despite some of your statements seeming otherwise.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded Riding a white swan to Matera
    Posts: 12,175
    Okay, my Japanese friends love Connery, Moore and Brosnan.

    Most really like Craig but do say he does not "look like Bond" but they all liked CR ... and also QOS, but not so much as CR.
    This very scientific study encompasses about 15 Japanese people. :D

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2012 Posts: 15,534
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Post-cinema surveys at the time, suggested those who saw Casino Royale loved both the film and Craig.

    And how many people were surveyed ? They don't things like that in every theater you know. They never surveyed me or anyone from the 4 showings of CR I went to in 2006.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited January 2012 Posts: 13,305
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Post-cinema surveys at the time, suggested those who saw Casino Royale loved both the film and Craig.

    And how many people were surveyed ? They don't things like that in every theater you know. They never surveyed me or anyone from the 4 showings of CR I went to in 2006.

    A very big portion of America and many overseas countries. Normally a sample survey is done to give you an idea of the bigger picture and it was accurate for Casino Royale.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,090
    Jeez, some discussions really do turn to crap when your best argument falls back on, "do you have exact, individual numbers"? When it comes to this kind of thing, points have to be looked at from a general perspective.

    The fact is, EMPHASIS ON FACT! Prior to CR Craig was criticised, humiliated and denounced by the media, highlighting on the fact that he was thought to be too short, too blond, not good-looking enough and naturally the general public latched onto this because this was all the media was stuffing down our throats. Craig does,t come from the archetypal look of the likes of Connery, Lazenby, Brosnan. Craig was and is different and a drastic change and departure from what the general audiences are ordinarily used to. It often comes down to the whole people fear what they don't understand or are afaraid of change mentality.
    Craig's debut in CR was so amazing the media by their own choice publicly apologised for getting it so wrong, do you know what that's called? That's called swagger and reral talent.

    The problem is and I suppose it's no fault of the genera public because when you're nurtured with crap that's all you know and can accept until you take the time to reason and look at things from a more objective perspective. Whereas Moore enjoyed over a decade of silliness and like Lazenby, Dalton might as well not bother existing to the minds of the gp, Brosnan like Moore gave us a string of predictable, by the numbers, silly fluff that audiences came to recognise and expect from the Bond movies. However, to be objective here one thing I feel that is missing from the Craig movies and it's by no means Craig's fault is, the fun factor. Craig's movies are serious with QoS being the darkest and most serious Bond film to date. However, CR and QoS get a pass because they're origin movies that set up and complete a character arc as to why and how Bond becomes this devil may care, live life to the fullest persona. If Skyfall as everyone involved with the movie keeps saying is a more traditional Bond film then hopefully we can get more of the fun factor "I want to be James Bond" feel back and I think that maybe Craig's Bond will be more highly regarded than it already is because looking at Craig generally, he's not a bad actor if anything his acting is the one positive constant that gets praised but I personally feel that many people's opinions of Craig's take isn't so much entirely based on his look but more to do with the fact that there aren't enough lighter, fun moments which over the decades has become an increasingly recognised staple element in the series.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 6,057
    doubleoego wrote:
    Jeez, some discussions really do turn to crap when your best argument falls back on, "do you have exact, individual numbers"? When it comes to this kind of thing, points have to be looked at from a general perspective.

    The fact is, EMPHASIS ON FACT! Prior to CR Craig was criticised, humiliated and denounced by the media, highlighting on the fact that he was thought to be too short, too blond, not good-looking enough and naturally the general public latched onto this because this was all the media was stuffing down our throats. Craig does,t come from the archetypal look of the likes of Connery, Lazenby, Brosnan. Craig was and is different and a drastic change and departure from what the general audiences are ordinarily used to. It often comes down to the whole people fear what they don't understand or are afaraid of change mentality.
    Craig's debut in CR was so amazing the media by their own choice publicly apologised for getting it so wrong, do you know what that's called? That's called swagger and reral talent.

    The problem is and I suppose it's no fault of the genera public because when you're nurtured with crap that's all you know and can accept until you take the time to reason and look at things from a more objective perspective. Whereas Moore enjoyed over a decade of silliness and like Lazenby, Dalton might as well not bother existing to the minds of the gp, Brosnan like Moore gave us a string of predictable, by the numbers, silly fluff that audiences came to recognise and expect from the Bond movies. However, to be objective here one thing I feel that is missing from the Craig movies and it's by no means Craig's fault is, the fun factor. Craig's movies are serious with QoS being the darkest and most serious Bond film to date. However, CR and QoS get a pass because they're origin movies that set up and complete a character arc as to why and how Bond becomes this devil may care, live life to the fullest persona. If Skyfall as everyone involved with the movie keeps saying is a more traditional Bond film then hopefully we can get more of the fun factor "I want to be James Bond" feel back and I think that maybe Craig's Bond will be more highly regarded than it already is because looking at Craig generally, he's not a bad actor if anything his acting is the one positive constant that gets praised but I personally feel that many people's opinions of Craig's take isn't so much entirely based on his look but more to do with the fact that there aren't enough lighter, fun moments which over the decades has become an increasingly recognised staple element in the series.

    Well put! Skyfall is a pivotal film. If successful it will meld the serious with the fun. I think CR did this but the pendulum swung too far in QoS.

  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited January 2012 Posts: 3,764
    Roger Moore
    Pierce Brosnan
    Sean Connery
    Daniel Craig
    Timothy Dalton
    George Lazenby

    Why:

    Roger Moore Bond movies be the moost on tv and people also watch those the moost.
    Pierce Brosnan his era and in special TMND, Twine and DAD be promoted very well. Die Another Day at the end whas mabey a bit to much. Roger Moore, Brosnan & Connery also be example in promotion outside the promotion of the new movie.

    CR whas my own liking not enough promoted but loved by the media. Stil the promotion there be whas not with so much love as the Brosnan era. This is because of Daniel Craig and Eva Green missing the humor of Brosnan & Desmond LLwelyn. QOS whas better promoted and i bust Daniel Craig sometimes a litle smile, some media tells lys about the movie or don't understand it. For example somebody i have very high on movie reviews said (before i saw the movie) he get the idea the producers having a long plan with it but he don't see it with QOS. But he speak against him self when i can heard he is disapointed it don't give result yet. This is my opnion confirmd Eon indeed having a long plan and alo the results of the movie proof.

    Problem be that CR whas for the none Bond fans and fans who like to see Die Hard or 24, whyle QOS is for the fans. QOS end 2th at the Dutch Boxoffice in 2008 after the number 1 Mamma Mia. TDK (over rated) on the edge wins from The Kite Runner.

    About DC i only see/heard people be over exited about his non Bond movies. But disapointed afterwards. After Mamma Mia i heard not much any more about Brosnan, this is of course because he isn't Bond any more and he deside to make other movies. Personaly i have buy more non Bond movies of him. From DC i don't own the Bond movies yet and having a couple of none Bond movies with him. Daniel Craig must have something the big change of him with QOS what trow my opnion overboard and buy Munich & Defiance. But i also buy a western with Brosnan. But in specialy QOS make big changes i like or better somewhere i always think it need. Mabey there is some hope Daniel Craig his in the first place negative drive who disapointed me with CR can help to make some other much needed inprovements for the Bond movies. But again there cast 2 very young actresses. There cast finaly older actres and my first opnion about Bardem be good. But i not get the idea she going to be the one end with Bond or be with Bond for a whyle. That going to be Naomi Harris or the other actres.

  • Posts: 140
    There is also another problem with Craig's Bond films which is never really mentioned and which I think will impact on how Daniel is remembered and the Bond franchise as a whole and it is this;

    Most of us here grew up watching Bond on television. Every Christmas, Easter or bank holiday there would be a spate of Moore, Connery and in the recent past Brosnan films. This is how I came to love On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Now we come to Craig's Bond.

    His films are so violent and dark that I cannot see them being shown on terrestrial television before the watershed. There will be a whole generation of Children whose exposure to Bond will be limited.

    Imagine Quantum of Solace being shown on Boxing Day at 3:30 PM? What is Bond doing with Mathis's Body? And if they edit the films what are you left with?
  • Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion, but when I originally posted it I was specifically hoping to learn if there are strong INTERNATIONAL preferences for the various Bond actors. I cited my experience with an admittedly small group of Viennese and 4EverBonded gave a view from Japan. But what are the preferences in France, Germany and Italy, for example? Is there anyone out there from these countries - and others? Let's hear from you, please!
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 1,644
    Seeing as CR and QOS weren't huge flops then common sense has to tell you Craig has been accepted in the role.

    However, looking at it from another perspective...

    "Craig is okay but was he the best man to replace Brosnan, I'm not sure."

    It's possible many fans (hardcore or casual) have thought that thought at least once since 2005 but there aren't enough anti-Craig Bond fans out there to sabotage Skyfall as there weren't enough to prevent CR and QOS flopping.

    I suspect the reality is Bond films will endure whoever is cast. As long as the studio can afford to spend huge amounts of money on marketing the new Bond actor and the new film, there's a 99 percent change every Bond film will be a hit. No Bond film has flopped and I doubt one starring the 'worst actor you can imagine as Bond' will flop too. That doesn't mean the current or future Bond actor (whoever it is) is right for the part, but I sincerely believe there aren't enough hardcore fans to sabotage the films and force the removal of the lead actor. The only way for a future Bond film to flop is for the producers to mess up the formula and B and W haven't done that. They've tinkered with it but the basic Bond formula is still there.

    I've been surprised how many net forums mention Craig and people post comments like: "worst Bond ever! blah blah blah" but there must be a big silent majority out there that have accepted him. Anti-Craigers, such as myself, are a vocal minority, but I reckon we are a tiny amount!
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