Would you rather have a young Bond adventure OR an older Bond adventure?

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Comments

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 15,067
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,006
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.

    The same accusation is hurled toward MI :3, a film I really like.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,067
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.

    It's a bit like calling Star Wars a soap opera though just because it's got someone's dad in it. For other people that's a 'saga'.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 762
    mtm wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.

    It's a bit like calling Star Wars a soap opera though just because it's got someone's dad in it. For other people that's a 'saga'.

    Star Wars is a soap opera.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.

    It's a bit like calling Star Wars a soap opera though just because it's got someone's dad in it. For other people that's a 'saga'.

    Star Wars is a soap opera.

    George Lucas himself said so.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 15,067
    Sure. Then everything is soap opera. The phrase becomes meaningless.
    TMWTGG has a relationship between a man and his girlfriend breaking down, leading to her trying to get help from a man outside the relationship. It also shows how the relationship between business partners Scaramanga and Hai Fat comes to a head, plus it shows how his manservant comes to harbour a grudge against him too. So that's a soap opera too.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,006
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.

    It's a bit like calling Star Wars a soap opera though just because it's got someone's dad in it. For other people that's a 'saga'.

    Star Wars is a soap opera.

    George Lucas himself said so.

    Actually Space Opera :D
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 3,010
    I wouldn’t use the term soap opera to describe the later Craig films. The only thing close to soap opera in my opinion would be some of Brosnan’s performance in TWINE, but even that’s mostly just a derogatory way of saying he overacts.

    That said, I think there were definitely some key ideas which the writers/producers clearly felt compelled to explore during the later Craig era. The idea of Bond getting older was one which cropped up a couple of times, as well the idea of him having a normal life beyond the service, if the films even believe this is possible. The idea of Bond having a daughter was seemingly proposed at least twice before NTTD. I think all of those ideas played into the willingness to reference Bond’s past/how it shaped this version of the character (it was done better in SF than SP in my opinion).

    I think the only things from those later Craig films that stemmed directly from TWINE were the idea of Bond sustaining an injury and the very broad idea of him being deceived by a lover which crops up in CR and NTTD, but I’d argue is handled very differently and comes from the source material anyway. Perhaps the question of Bond’s relevance in the modern world in GE is mirrored in SF, but this is even broader. Otherwise while there are plot similarities what they were trying to do during the Craig and Brosnan eras in terms of character were different.
  • The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 3,010
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided running with too much.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,393
    007HallY wrote: »
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided.

    Actually, ironically, the closest to that would be AVTAK, Bond's relevance was subtly questioned in that regarding his knowledge of modern technology and even confronting a younger villain with a plot about technology.

    And his relationship with Stacey Sutton even hinted some paternal relationship.

    Even giving him an older ally in Godfrey Tibbet.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 15,067
    I wouldn't have minded a nod towards it in AVTAK, even if they weren't going to explore it. Like Zorin telling 007 that he's getting a bit old for it, that sort of thing. It would have showed they knew about the situation at least.

    NSNA feels like it only really mentions that Bond is going back into active service as a way of explaining the title of the film!
  • Posts: 3,010
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided.

    Actually, ironically, the closest to that would be AVTAK, Bond's relevance was subtly questioned in that regarding his knowledge of modern technology and even confronting a younger villain with a plot about technology.

    Yeah, sort of. I mean, I think most of that comes from Moore’s obvious older age rather than specifically the script. But the use of modern technology and a younger villain are there. It’s kind of a shame they didn’t feel they could do more with those concepts. It feels like the film is trying to hide Moore’s age at times if anything.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided running with too much.

    Well It does a lot. The new M, free radicals, the videogame, and he retires at the end.



  • The age question is also somewhat reflected in the almost ‘paternal’ way in which Bond treats Stacey after they meet, which is such a shame they backtrack on that by having them share a shower at the end.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,527
    Brosnan in TWINE for me (no surprise there). TMWTGG is one of my least favorites of the lot but Moore is damn good in it, I'll give him that.
  • Posts: 3,010
    007HallY wrote: »
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided running with too much.

    Well It does a lot. The new M, free radicals, the videogame, and he retires at the end.



    It’s there, but it’s all pretty surface level. I think most of it was more a wink to the fact this was Connery’s last Bond film. But yeah, it definitely went further than the EON films were willing to go.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,067
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided.

    Actually, ironically, the closest to that would be AVTAK, Bond's relevance was subtly questioned in that regarding his knowledge of modern technology and even confronting a younger villain with a plot about technology.

    Not really sure about that- Bond isn't shown to be out of touch. I think they're trying make him seem as relevant as ever, on the cutting edge even, rather than becoming irrelevant.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    And his relationship with Stacey Sutton even hinted some paternal relationship.

    Even giving him an older ally in Godfrey Tibbet.

    Part of Tibbet's presence, I would argue, is actually to try and make Roger look a bit younger/fitter by contrast. There's a hint of the paternal to him and Stacey, yes, but that's something Glen had done before in FYEO arguably.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 3,010
    From what I can tell it’s only in GE that the whole ‘relevancy in the modern world’ question comes into play in a more subtle, but effective way. It’s not a film about Bond’s age though (he’s still very much in his prime).

    SF runs more with both an ageing Bond (I’d argue he’s not old and it’s more that he’s midway through his 00 career, but all the ‘it’s a young man’s game’ lines are there) as well as the issue of his relevancy. I think it hits home much better as a) Bond is genuinely injured at the start and has to get back to his previous level of fitness, b) it really runs with modern technology/how even MI6 is changing, and c) Bond and Silva are much more overtly ‘mirror images’ of each other, even more so than Travelyan is in GE.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,801
    I like both really, but TMWTGG is an absolute favourite, so I'll go with that one.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 762
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The old Bond thing and the relevance in the modern world... They came from NSNA.

    Is this movie the father of the modern Bond?

    Nah, it’s from CR ‘67. Bond also dies at the end of that and has a daughter, so…

    To be honest, NSNA doesn’t do much with Bond’s age/relevancy. I think it was something the older films avoided running with too much.

    Well It does a lot. The new M, free radicals, the videogame, and he retires at the end.



    It’s there, but it’s all pretty surface level. I think most of it was more a wink to the fact this was Connery’s last Bond film. But yeah, it definitely went further than the EON films were willing to go.

    It's very meta but GE and SF are meta too.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 1,716
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Good stuff! I am not sure about the alley scene, I believe in the DVD behind the scenes info they mentioned that the stunt went off beautifully, but the crowd was standing on the corner and it didn't look right. So they re-shot it and the driver didn't realize that he was doing it the wrong way until Hamilton was looking over the new take. He quickly decided to do insert shots of Connery and St. John and to make it appear better as a re-shot wasn't going to be possible again. I would say it was a sloppy way of fixing and for the error in the first place.

    Ok on to another lets pit Roger against Pierce. Roger had a strong debut, and then took a mis-step with TMWTGG. Many find it to be lacklustre, to play against Roger's strengths and to be a rushed film.

    In Pierce's case I was going to use DAD but I think everyone would just pile on and call it a terrible film, so lets use TWINE instead. Many find it to be a soap opera drama. The film is often cited as bungling a female villain and Christmas Jones also gets some critics going.

    Would you rather watch Roger in TMWTGG OR Pierce in TWINE?

    Before the above comment gets lost in the thread, all I can say is that I was there and I have reservations about what was said on the DVD extras.

    If they did the alley shot afterwards to match the Vegas exit, did they build the alley and brick ‘ramp’ for the driver?

    Yes, the ramp and alley were sets built for the sequence. Reason being is that when you put a car up on two wheels the car actually becomes 1/2 times WIDER than on all four. Height of the roof and the wheels sticking out etc. The alley set was built so that it's width could be adjusted. For the POV shot approaching the alley it is in it's tight or small mode. Then the set was adjusted to it's wide setting to allow the actual mustang to pass through. I still have the blueprints.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,993
    007HallY wrote: »
    I wouldn’t use the term soap opera to describe the later Craig films. The only thing close to soap opera in my opinion would be some of Brosnan’s performance in TWINE, but even that’s mostly just a derogatory way of saying he overacts.

    That said, I think there were definitely some key ideas which the writers/producers clearly felt compelled to explore during the later Craig era. The idea of Bond getting older was one which cropped up a couple of times, as well the idea of him having a normal life beyond the service, if the films even believe this is possible. The idea of Bond having a daughter was seemingly proposed at least twice before NTTD. I think all of those ideas played into the willingness to reference Bond’s past/how it shaped this version of the character (it was done better in SF than SP in my opinion).

    I think the only things from those later Craig films that stemmed directly from TWINE were the idea of Bond sustaining an injury and the very broad idea of him being deceived by a lover which crops up in CR and NTTD, but I’d argue is handled very differently and comes from the source material anyway. Perhaps the question of Bond’s relevance in the modern world in GE is mirrored in SF, but this is even broader. Otherwise while there are plot similarities what they were trying to do during the Craig and Brosnan eras in terms of character were different.

    "He knew about my SHOULDer. He knew just how to HURT me."

    Not to mention the last line of the movie.

    The dialogue in TWINE is a hot mess, and all involved should be ashamed.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 15,067
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Good stuff! I am not sure about the alley scene, I believe in the DVD behind the scenes info they mentioned that the stunt went off beautifully, but the crowd was standing on the corner and it didn't look right. So they re-shot it and the driver didn't realize that he was doing it the wrong way until Hamilton was looking over the new take. He quickly decided to do insert shots of Connery and St. John and to make it appear better as a re-shot wasn't going to be possible again. I would say it was a sloppy way of fixing and for the error in the first place.

    Ok on to another lets pit Roger against Pierce. Roger had a strong debut, and then took a mis-step with TMWTGG. Many find it to be lacklustre, to play against Roger's strengths and to be a rushed film.

    In Pierce's case I was going to use DAD but I think everyone would just pile on and call it a terrible film, so lets use TWINE instead. Many find it to be a soap opera drama. The film is often cited as bungling a female villain and Christmas Jones also gets some critics going.

    Would you rather watch Roger in TMWTGG OR Pierce in TWINE?

    Before the above comment gets lost in the thread, all I can say is that I was there and I have reservations about what was said on the DVD extras.

    If they did the alley shot afterwards to match the Vegas exit, did they build the alley and brick ‘ramp’ for the driver?

    Yes, the ramp and alley were sets built for the sequence. Reason being is that when you put a car up on two wheels the car actually becomes 1/2 times WIDER than on all four. Height of the roof and the wheels sticking out etc. The alley set was built so that it's width could be adjusted. For the POV shot approaching the alley it is in it's tight or small mode. Then the set was adjusted to it's wide setting to allow the actual mustang to pass through. I still have the blueprints.

    That's very interesting, thank you- you can certainly see in the film that the alleyway gets wider, and is in fact wide enough to drive the car through normally when it does pass through it! I’d never spotted that before.
    I do kind of wonder why they didn't get another driver who could do it if they were constructing the whole set for him. I would have thought that driving it with the driver in the higher position would have been even harder than at the lower position- that's how most stunt drivers seem to do it anyway.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,099
    mtm wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not even close to a 'soap opera'. Just featuring someone with familial links or a backstory does not make a drama a soap opera.

    I’m just saying it seems that EON has been leaning towards that type of family drama lately. A lot that started in TWINE. I personally don’t mind it. However, it has been getting old lately.

    It's a bit like calling Star Wars a soap opera though just because it's got someone's dad in it. For other people that's a 'saga'.

    Star Wars is a soap opera.

    Please. Space opera.

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Space_opera

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,007
    Great discussion and lots of interesting choices made here. I must say I enjoy when one of these takes off and spurs some passion and some back and forth.

    The titles of the films have been etched into pop culture. Fleming had some banger titles and they helped to sell the books and then the movies. Since 1989 the producers have had to come up with their own titles. Some are critical of the titles the producers have used. I recall the general population having a tough time with Quantum of Solace. That title got worse when the organization was known as Quantum.

    In my mind the producers could deep dive back into Fleming and scuff around for titles or get creative and come up with their own.

    A reminder of the original titles:
    • Licence to Kill...hardly original and not without some challenges as the producers wanted Licence Revoked but that was thought not to work in USA!
    • Goldeneye...name of Flemings Jamaica home
    • Tomorrow Never Dies...was once called Tomorrow Never Lies which I think is a bit better.
    • The World Is Not Enough...diving into Fleming here
    • Die Another Day...they do seem to like Die!
    • Quantum of Solace
    • Skyfall...intriguing and I think a good title
    • SPECTRE...not the most creative
    • No Time To Die...they took some flack for this one too!

    Fleming titles left would be Risico, The Hillebrand Rarity, Property of a Lady, 007 in New York.

    I have to ask Mi6 community

    Would you rather the next film have a Fleming based title OR the producers create their own?
  • Quantum of Solace is a Fleming title.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 567
    Unless it's Risico they should create their own.
  • Posts: 1,716
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Good stuff! I am not sure about the alley scene, I believe in the DVD behind the scenes info they mentioned that the stunt went off beautifully, but the crowd was standing on the corner and it didn't look right. So they re-shot it and the driver didn't realize that he was doing it the wrong way until Hamilton was looking over the new take. He quickly decided to do insert shots of Connery and St. John and to make it appear better as a re-shot wasn't going to be possible again. I would say it was a sloppy way of fixing and for the error in the first place.

    Ok on to another lets pit Roger against Pierce. Roger had a strong debut, and then took a mis-step with TMWTGG. Many find it to be lacklustre, to play against Roger's strengths and to be a rushed film.

    In Pierce's case I was going to use DAD but I think everyone would just pile on and call it a terrible film, so lets use TWINE instead. Many find it to be a soap opera drama. The film is often cited as bungling a female villain and Christmas Jones also gets some critics going.

    Would you rather watch Roger in TMWTGG OR Pierce in TWINE?

    Before the above comment gets lost in the thread, all I can say is that I was there and I have reservations about what was said on the DVD extras.

    If they did the alley shot afterwards to match the Vegas exit, did they build the alley and brick ‘ramp’ for the driver?

    Yes, the ramp and alley were sets built for the sequence. Reason being is that when you put a car up on two wheels the car actually becomes 1/2 times WIDER than on all four. Height of the roof and the wheels sticking out etc. The alley set was built so that it's width could be adjusted. For the POV shot approaching the alley it is in it's tight or small mode. Then the set was adjusted to it's wide setting to allow the actual mustang to pass through. I still have the blueprints.

    That's very interesting, thank you- you can certainly see in the film that the alleyway gets wider, and is in fact wide enough to drive the car through normally when it does pass through it! I’d never spotted that before.
    I do kind of wonder why they didn't get another driver who could do it if they were constructing the whole set for him. I would have thought that driving it with the driver in the higher position would have been even harder than at the lower position- that's how most stunt drivers seem to do it anyway.

    The driver on the Universal shoot was different from the one in Vegas. He tried several times to put the car up on the appropriate wheels but it fell down each time he approached the alley. It seemed like he had not practiced enough to get the car up on that side. As time was running out they had him do it on the opposite wheels for a couple of takes and when he succeeded they wrapped. My guess is that the driver had practiced on the wrong side. Miscommunication was probably the culprit.
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