Which films have received the biggest reappraisal since release?

edited November 22 in Bond Movies Posts: 456
This thread is NOT about our personal individual opinions of the film. But moreso the overall consensus from audiences and critics when the movie came out, vs. how many people view the films now.

If there are any hardcore Bond fans that want to do a write-up on every film's reputation on release vs. now, I'm game for it. I'm only 30; I wasn't around for most of the film releases.

Which films got more praise as time went on? Which got less praise?

More Praise
OHMSS and License to Kill were examples of 2 films that were seen as the black sheep of the series at the time, but are now considered to be some of the better films; and a sizeable portion of Bond fans consider OHMSS a classic.

Less Praise
Never Say Never Again. In 1983, Connery returning was such a historic event to the point where critics were willing to overlook the films flaws. But people watching it on dvd or streaming services now will just see a mediocre film.
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Comments

  • Posts: 206
    Moonraker and Octopussy get much more love on here than they would have in the 80's I think.
    A good barometer of eighties attitudes is Raymond Benson's Bedside Companion. NSNA is praised highly, but the likes of Moonraker. . . oh dear!
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    edited November 22 Posts: 197
    I think it’s possible to differentiate between the views of Bond fans and what might be called the consensus among critics and general public.

    QOS for instance is held in pretty high regard by Bond fans, at least if this site is anything to go by. Among wider audiences I think it will always be the ‘Bourne knock off shaky cam migraine edited’ lesser movie. I don’t think that will change.

    One thing I have noticed is a bit of a backlash against Skyfall. At first I thought it was hipsters / contrarians coming into pile on a much lauded movie, but it continues unabated and seems to be becoming more pronounced.

    Among Bond fans the line is something along the lines of ‘doesn’t hold up to rewatches; action not that great; it was 50th nostagia & Deakins & Adele that blinded people to its faults”. More generally among the public, criticism is still some of the lazy old “Dark Knight / Home Alone rip off” shtick,

    It’s hard to know if the consensus on the movie has changed or if it’s just that the people who are down on it like to say so and the majority who like it don’t feel the need to say so.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    Moonraker and Octopussy get much more love on here than they would have in the 80's I think.
    A good barometer of eighties attitudes is Raymond Benson's Bedside Companion. NSNA is praised highly, but the likes of Moonraker. . . oh dear!

    I think Moore’s movies have been positively reappraised in light of Brosnan’s tenure, and are given a lot more credit for what they did well and Brosnan’s movies maybe less well:

    Humour that is naughty but also gentle, kind of innocent and totally unforced. E.g the ‘Attempting Re-entry” gag from Moonraker is made inadvertently by Q, whilst looking at another monitor. Compare that to the much more heavy handed and deliberate (in character) lines such as ‘Christmas only comes once a year’; ‘cunninglinguist’ and ‘pump her for information’ not to mention the Moneypenny masturbation from DAD.

    The other area where I think people appreciate that Moore’s films shine is in the amazing, sense defying stunt work that peppers his films. DAD is known for a CGI stunt.

    If you look at Rotten Tomatoes, a slew of Moore movies rank below DAD: AVTAK, OP, TMWTGG. I wouldn’t have thought that is the consensus now.
  • edited November 22 Posts: 456
    Moonraker

    Wasn't this always a polarizing film though? Fans of the more serious Bond films hated it. But fans of Moore and the humor enjoyed. Nonetheless, it sold very well and was remembered for its villains, gadgets and lair. It left a mark.

    On Rotten Tomatoes, the critics rated significantly higher than the general audience.
    Octopussy

    I think this film is getting reappraised by core Bond fans. But amongst the general public, it's not really talked about much.

    The difference between MR vs OP. Octopussy came late in Moore's career. Moore's earlier films left their mark on the franchise. But 6-7 films in, there's inertia in public interest.

    It's kind of like when a band or musician releases an album decades into their career. Even if it's good, it usually doesn't get nearly as much press as their older material.
  • Posts: 456
    One thing I have noticed is a bit of a backlash against Skyfall.

    Are they claiming that it's subpar or just that it's good but overrated? Maybe there are people who feel like this film is in the top 12 instead of the top 5, but still enjoy it.


  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    M16_Cart wrote: »

    Are they claiming that it's subpar or just that it's good but overrated? Maybe there are people who feel like this film is in the top 12 instead of the top 5, but still enjoy it.

    A bit of both probably, but more so the later - they don’t think it deserves the elevated and lofty heights in which it is perceived to reside
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 22 Posts: 366
    Agreed that OHMSS has had the most positive reappraisal. From being the widely dismissed runt of the litter to the high regard in which its held now is quite some turnaround. It appears to have happened naturally, too, as people have discovered it (and re-discovered it) out of its immediate context and judged it on its own merits, without any of the inevitable conflicted feelings that original Connery-era fans will have had towards it. Future generations will similarly transform the current view of QOS and see it for the unrelenting triumph it is! ;)
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 22 Posts: 366
    Thinking about it, the last time I watched DAD I was no longer actively appalled and just enjoyed it for what it was. I dunno if that's just becoming desensitised to the horror rather than an actual reappraisal, though...
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    edited November 22 Posts: 197
    Venutius wrote: »
    OHMSS is the most positively reappraised, I'd say. From being the widely dismissed runt of the litter to the high regard in which its held now is quite some turnaround. It appears to have happened naturally, too, as people have discovered it (and re-discovered it) out of its immediate context and looked at it on its own merits. Future generations will similarly transform the current view of QOS and see it for the unrelenting triumph it is. ;)

    And maybe NTTD will only solidify OHMSS’s place in the firmament, given that the producers have gone all out to pay homage to it whilst reimagining it
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    edited November 22 Posts: 197
    Venutius wrote: »
    Thinking about it, the last time I watched DAD I was no longer actively appalled and just enjoyed it for what it was. I dunno if that's just becoming desensitised to the horror rather than an actual reappraisal, though...

    I think at least in DAD Brosnan gives his best performance - he’s the best thing about that film IMO. I feel that in previous movies he struggled a bit with the tonal shifts between the ‘pained emo it’s personal’ vibe and the lighter Mooresque elements. Here I thought it worked dramatically thanks to Brosnan. Pity about the rest of the movie…

    In terms of reassessment, I’m sure the similarly outlandish Moonraker has benefited from comparisons to DAD
  • Posts: 456
    QOS has hope of being reappraised because it sits right in between Casino and Skyfall. People decades from now will come to visit those movies. And maybe they'll also watch QOS because they want to see what Craigs other films are like.

  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    A flip side of OHMSS belatedly becoming an appreciated and cherished movie is that Diamonds Are Forever has gone down and down in estimation, such that it is now probably one of the least well regarded
  • Posts: 456
    At the time of DAD's release, Bond was at its apex of cultural relevance (at least for its time). Its release felt like an event. It sold very well.

    There are people who feel like it's the worst thing that ever happened to the series. But I'm sure there are also people who feel like its a decent average silly big-budget action movie, that may not have the most original plot, but has entertaining moments.

    Surprisingly, critics on Rotten Tomatoes rate is somewhat higher than audiences; and it's not in the bottom 5 films.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    M16_Cart wrote: »

    Surprisingly, critics on Rotten Tomatoes rate is somewhat higher than audiences; and it's not in the bottom 5 films.

    But if you asked those same critics now, a lot of them would probably label it the nadir
  • Posts: 456
    Critics don't seem consistent in their opinion of Bond films. Maybebecause they're not comparing them to all other Bond films like we are.

    They're comparing them to other films of that year. Or maybe based on the standards they have at that particular time.

    It could also be different publications reviewing different films. Or within the same publication, a different critic reviewing the film.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    Critics don't seem consistent in their opinion of Bond films. Maybebecause they're not comparing them to all other Bond films like we are.

    They're comparing them to other films of that year. Or maybe based on the standards they have at that particular time..

    I think mostly that’s the case, but often the most recent Bond film will also be used as a point of reference for comparison. So QOS was poorly compared against both Bourne and against CR. Similarly, Spectre’s muted critical response was partly a result of holding it up against MI: Rogue Nation and as it being seen as an anaemic follow up to Skyfall

    Casino Royale on the other hand side was seen as washing away the stink of DAD, as well as being favourably compared to other ‘reboot’ movies like Batman Begins
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited November 22 Posts: 411
    Not that I was around in the 60s, but it seems Thunderball was quite highly praised back in the day. Lately, I feel it gets a a pretty “meh” reception by most (which I agree with - massive downgrade from Connery’s first 3 films IMO)
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    Ha I love Thunderball, my favourite of Connery’s. It’s the ultimate Bond hangout movie.

    But I think you’re right about how it is seem now. People talk about the first three of Connery movies as the ones to live up to. Thunderball almost gets forgotten. It’s the one between the holy trinity and the epic but flawed YOLT
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 5,014
    I need to do a big re-appraisal of the Connery films for myself; I really don't like TB or YOLT, but I'm always hearing people say that TB is their favourite.

    I've definitely thought this before, as well, and have in the past watched TB to try and figure it out, so it's possible there's just some disconnect there for me. I may never like TB. :'(
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    I actually find it quite hard to pin down and express what it is that I so love about Thunderball. I mean, i can see why people aren’t keen on it. It’s a movie with quite a languid pace; the villain isn’t as memorable as Connery’s other foes; the underwater sequences are an acquired taste (I love them).

    I simply love the vibe of the movie, hanging out with Bond. And Connery just is Bond in this movie. I easily find it his most captivating and comfortable performance in the role and it is sheer heaven to watch
  • Posts: 456
    Not that I was around in the 60s, but it seems Thunderball was quite highly praised back in the day.

    Yeah, Thunderball was a massive hit; a Skyfall of its time. It was when Bond went big-budget. If Goldfinger set the blueprint for the series' plots, then Thunderball set the blueprint for the series' action and over-the-topness.

    I'm sure the gadgets, action and underwater scenes of TB were seen as high-tech for its time, but are kind of commonplace by today's standards. So that novelty factor isn't there anymore. And there's a segment of Bond fans who prefer the more grounded nature of the earlier films.

    The more human moments of TB are what I remember fondly (i.e. the dialogue, characters, some of the quieter scenes). Art ages better than technology does.

    In recent years, I've seen Thunderball all over the place in people's lists (all the way from classic, good, average and meh) with the common criticism being the underwater scenes and the length.

  • edited November 23 Posts: 144
    I simply love the vibe of the movie, hanging out with Bond. And Connery just is Bond in this movie. I easily find it his most captivating and comfortable performance in the role and it is sheer heaven to watch

    I can't think of any Bond who has ever been cooler than Connery in TB.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 5,014
    I’ll have to watch it through that lens. “Hanging out with Bond” or whatever. I do want to like it.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    Zarozzor wrote: »

    I can't think of any Bond who has ever been cooler than Connery in TB.

    “would you mind giving me something to put on?”

    Possibly Bond’s coolest moment ever
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited November 23 Posts: 3,816
    Promotion

    1. Skyfall
    2. Tomorrow Never Dies
    3. Die Another Day
    4. The World Is Not Enough
    5. Casino Royale
    6. Quantum Of Solace
    7. No Time To Die
    8. Spectre

    Both SF and DAD are over rated promoted. Tomorrow Never Dies second because of cameo of Daphne Deckers and Titanic was delayd till 08 January 1998. In 2002 DAD was delayd for month and 4 days till 09 January 2003. It is only Bond movie i have seen on release date and bought dvd also on release date of 7 May 2003 who was not delayd.

    With Skyfall and Spectre and now NTTD the count of views go from a million to views to 1,5 - 2 million. NTTD almoost beats Spectre 22 million at Dutch boxoffice. $21,052,910 after 007 weaks (30 September - 14 November). 4 million before it beats Skyfall 25 million. Next step will The Lion King 2019 33 million. Ticket cost € 11,50 or € 14,50 those days minimal. € 2,50 more fore 3D.

    QOS end second in 2008 after Mamma Mia. Madagascar 2 end 3th place. The Kite Runner wins from TDK. TDK promotion crossing or atleast same level as DAD.

    Goldeneye was my first Bond movie in cinema. I remember it take 11 - 12 months before movie was released as 2 VHS in late 1996 and till March 1998 before it get his Dutch tv premiere. Back then it very normal it takes more then 14 months before movie be avaible to rental or buy on Vhs. Mission Impossible who i have seen in cinema takes till January 1998 before you can rent it.

    Tomorrow Never Dies just on time for me and me and my mothers boyfriend won each 2 tickets for limited morning premiere 4 days before release on 18 December 1997 in two difrent cinema's. I go with my mom. He with my brother. Even more joy when later movie was released as 2VHS limited edition box (Limited to 12.000) include one of 12 story boards (limited to 1.000) from storyboard over view who is include too. I believe i payd fl 59,99 same money i pay later for single disc dvd of The World Is Not Enough (My first dvd).
  • Posts: 5,918
    Completely agree @Zarozzor … no one has come closer to Connery-cool in TB. The dialogue was tight and he had the wonderful Fiona Volpe to play against.

    Connery made being a bad ass look so effortlessly easy in this film. Every look and every word and every movement oozes with ice cold coolness.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    edited November 23 Posts: 197
    Connery is truly a magnificent b****** in Thunderball, having so much fun trolling the villains. The way he goes into the Casino and pushes all the buttons to let Largo know he’s onto him. The way he pawns Largo at clay shooting. Fetching something for the bathing Fiona Volpe to put on. A bunch of dick moves but Bond is having so much fun
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 23 Posts: 366
    Sean Connery IS James Bond. There's never been a more accurate promo slogan. The man absolutely embodied it.
  • Leon12Leon12 England
    Posts: 15
    QoS seems to have gone through a major re-appraisal with many now saying it is a cracking Bond film, I think it's great, it's stripped down action, with a Bond overcome with rage and grief and is shown as a borderline alcoholic
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 197
    Leon12 wrote: »
    QoS seems to have gone through a major re-appraisal with many now saying it is a cracking Bond film, I think it's great, it's stripped down action, with a Bond overcome with rage and grief and is shown as a borderline alcoholic

    I’d say that QOS going up in estimation really only applies to Bond fans. I don’t think it’s getting any re-appraisal among wider critics and movie watching public
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