NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,134
    I think that PTS makes him appear to be a bit of an idiot by immediately believing everything that Blofeld says about Madeline despite everything that happened in SP.
    Although Bond's only known Madeleine for about three weeks at that point, tbf. And it was her idea that they go to Matera and for him to visit Vesper's grave. And he does have experience of being betrayed by the woman he's just fallen in love with. And she is Mr. White's daughter, after all. He already suspected her when he confronted her in the hotel - Blofeld's phone call just tipped it.
    But maybe it would've been better if, as someone on here suggested, Bond put Madeleine on the train because he knew that she'd never be safe from Spectre if she stayed with him. Sacrificing his relationship to protect Madeleine at the start of the film would've resonated nicely with the even greater sacrifice at the end of the film, too.
  • Venutius wrote: »
    But maybe it would've been better if, as someone on here suggested, Bond put Madeleine on the train because he knew that she'd never be safe from Spectre if she stayed with him. Sacrificing his relationship to protect Madeleine at the start of the film would've resonated nicely with the even greater sacrifice at the end of the film, too.

    I think that would’ve worked out nicely, I just didn’t like how he took the word of Blofeld, someone he hates deeply over the words of someone he loves and cares about. I just felt it made him look a bit dumb when he isn’t.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    But then also the idea to visit Vesper's grave is Madeline's, and with the phone call it does all join together.
  • Someone mentioned DAD and it’s funny that the villain’s plot in DAD is actually more clear and makes more sense than whatever muddled thing Safin has in mind. I’m not a big fan of space laser satellite plots (especially in DAF and DAD) but at least I understand what Moon/Graves was trying to accomplish with Icarus. To clear the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea. But what in the world Safin was trying to do I have no idea. The writers didn’t spend any real effort on developing this guy at all. Apparently he has some hang ups/obsessions with Madeline (because he’s crazy and diabolical, you know) and he also has some super virus which he uses to wipe out Spectre but also is planning to use on certain politicians (??) and also to make the world a little tidier (??) and is also selling this virus to highest bidders (??) and is also seeking revenge (if I recall correctly??) for the death of his father? Or parents??

    Just a really convoluted mess with this villain. At the end of the day he’s just a simpering little man-child that is dull and uninteresting with no clear goal to make sense of. I guess they thought if they give him the first name of Lucifer that’ll be enough to make him really EVIIIILLLL.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,367
    Someone mentioned DAD and it’s funny that the villain’s plot in DAD is actually more clear and makes more sense than whatever muddled thing Safin has in mind. I’m not a big fan of space laser satellite plots (especially in DAF and DAD) but at least I understand what Moon/Graves was trying to accomplish with Icarus. To clear the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea. But what in the world Safin was trying to do I have no idea. The writers didn’t spend any real effort on developing this guy at all. Apparently he has some hang ups/obsessions with Madeline (because he’s crazy and diabolical, you know) and he also has some super virus which he uses to wipe out Spectre but also is planning to use on certain politicians (??) and also to make the world a little tidier (??) and is also selling this virus to highest bidders (??) and is also seeking revenge (if I recall correctly??) for the death of his father? Or parents??

    Just a really convoluted mess with this villain. At the end of the day he’s just a simpering little man-child that is dull and uninteresting with no clear goal to make sense of. I guess they thought if they give him the first name of Lucifer that’ll be enough to make him really EVIIIILLLL.

    =D>
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    I'm kind of not sure what the problem is with Safin to be honest. Blofeld/White killed his family so he wants revenge, he finds a way to kill all of Spectre, and being a bit potty by then (not exactly rare for a Bond villain) he's going to sell his super-weapon to lots of other baddies.
  • Saffin’s motivations made sense to me on repeat viewings. He’s your standard incel Joker watch the world burn sort of bad guy. Once his revenge is done he wants to burn the world by selling Heracles to some dodgy Russians (or the Russians?), letting that deadly superweapon out into the world then retiring as a “hero” with the woman he sees as his princess and her kid, who he’ll keep safe and protect from that world he wants to burn, because he got burnt as a kid like Madeline did (and Bond did). I think why he lets Mathilde go, he’s disgusted she’s not letting him “save” her.

    I can see what they were trying to do, and I did think he had some creepy moments with Madeline. An incel Bond villain could have been cool. But orphan turned psycho isn’t the most exciting or original idea in the world, he got hardly any screen time to lift that idea or flesh out the character, his dialogue was pretty clunky, and Malek didn’t have the presence to compensate for any of that.

    It does seem like he was one of the criticisms most people seemed to share too, right from day one, so hopefully we’ll get a better baddy next time.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    He wasn't superb and not really all that well played in truth, but he was at least a total stranger to Bond, and didn't really care much about him, which is a big thing for some folk.
  • Posts: 3,913
    His dialogue about free will and being an invisible God went over my head personally.

    I think you can get away with a lot of contrivances when it comes to Bond villains, so long as their fundamental motives are clear and consistent. I mean, we don’t question, for instance, why Alec Travelyan goes to the years long effort of creating a criminal syndicate and stealing a military weapon when such a thing to do is so much extra effort even in the context of his motives. We know he’s a man who feels he’s been wronged by Britain his whole life and this is good enough.

    The issue with Safin is once he kills the entirety of SPECTRE we’re left with the more implausible aspects of his character. He no longer has the tangible motive of revenge to support it. That’s one of the reasons I think people struggle with his character in the third act.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited October 2023 Posts: 8,367
    The part that doesn't make sense to me is that during the initial scene in the office between them he makes some reference to the special connection they have because he saved her life all those years ago, and its kinda inferred through seydouxs performance that she acknowledges this connection that makes you think that this must have some grander significance to the story, and it creates the potential for an interesting dynamic between her, him and bond. but it ultimately doesn't amount to anything and the special connection more or less evaporates by the end, oddly mirroring the bond/Nomi dynamic of having tension between them the whole film only to disappear once the script calls for it.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited November 2023 Posts: 4,575
    Saffin’s motivations made sense to me on repeat viewings. He’s your standard incel Joker watch the world burn sort of bad guy. Once his revenge is done he wants to burn the world by selling Heracles to some dodgy Russians (or the Russians?), letting that deadly superweapon out into the world then retiring as a “hero” with the woman he sees as his princess and her kid, who he’ll keep safe and protect from that world he wants to burn, because he got burnt as a kid like Madeline did (and Bond did). I think why he lets Mathilde go, he’s disgusted she’s not letting him “save” her.

    I can see what they were trying to do, and I did think he had some creepy moments with Madeline. An incel Bond villain could have been cool. But orphan turned psycho isn’t the most exciting or original idea in the world, he got hardly any screen time to lift that idea or flesh out the character, his dialogue was pretty clunky, and Malek didn’t have the presence to compensate for any of that.

    It does seem like he was one of the criticisms most people seemed to share too, right from day one, so hopefully we’ll get a better baddy next time.
    The part that doesn't make sense to me is that during the initial scene in the office between them he makes some reference to the special connection they have because he saved her life all those years ago, and its kinda inferred through seydouxs performance that she acknowledges this connection that makes you think that this must have some grander significance to the story, and it creates the potential for an interesting dynamic between her, him and bond. but it ultimately doesn't amount to anything and the special connection more or less evaporates by the end, oddly mirroring the bond/Nomi dynamic of having tension between them the whole film only to disappear once the script calls for it.

    I understood the motivations, too, but I thought they could have been punched up a little more.

    The only thing that I think needed to be worked out was his relationship with Madeleine, and @Mendes4Lyfe hints at that. I would have preferred that he'd been in touch with her all along, every now and then, like he was keeping tabs on her. And she, in some twisted way, always went along with it. Imagine him saying in her office, "I lost touch with after you left the clinic. You didn't even leave a resignation letter." Her burning the secret of the "masked man" would have made more sense and not seemed so convenient.

    It's not that they're in love. But having a deeper, psychological connection would have made some sense and added a layer of complication to the story.

  • Posts: 3,913
    TripAces wrote: »
    Saffin’s motivations made sense to me on repeat viewings. He’s your standard incel Joker watch the world burn sort of bad guy. Once his revenge is done he wants to burn the world by selling Heracles to some dodgy Russians (or the Russians?), letting that deadly superweapon out into the world then retiring as a “hero” with the woman he sees as his princess and her kid, who he’ll keep safe and protect from that world he wants to burn, because he got burnt as a kid like Madeline did (and Bond did). I think why he lets Mathilde go, he’s disgusted she’s not letting him “save” her.

    I can see what they were trying to do, and I did think he had some creepy moments with Madeline. An incel Bond villain could have been cool. But orphan turned psycho isn’t the most exciting or original idea in the world, he got hardly any screen time to lift that idea or flesh out the character, his dialogue was pretty clunky, and Malek didn’t have the presence to compensate for any of that.

    It does seem like he was one of the criticisms most people seemed to share too, right from day one, so hopefully we’ll get a better baddy next time.
    The part that doesn't make sense to me is that during the initial scene in the office between them he makes some reference to the special connection they have because he saved her life all those years ago, and its kinda inferred through seydouxs performance that she acknowledges this connection that makes you think that this must have some grander significance to the story, and it creates the potential for an interesting dynamic between her, him and bond. but it ultimately doesn't amount to anything and the special connection more or less evaporates by the end, oddly mirroring the bond/Nomi dynamic of having tension between them the whole film only to disappear once the script calls for it.

    I understood the motivations, too, but I thought they could have been punched up a little more.

    The only thing that I think needed to be worked out was his relationship with Madeleine, and @Mendes4Lyfe hints at that. I would have preferred that he'd been in touch with her all along, every now and then, like he was keeping tabs on her. And she, in some twisted way, always went along with it. Imagine him saying in her office, "I lost touch with after you left the clinic. You didn't even leave a resignation letter." Her burning the secret of the "masked man" would have made more sense and not seemed so convenient.

    It's not that they're in love. But having a deeper, psychological connection would have made some sense and added a layer of complication to the story.

    I like the idea of Safin in his mask following Madeline and Bond around in Matera just before the SPECTRE attack. You’re right, Safin keeping tabs on her and Madeline at least saying in hindsight she knew about him (possibly even figuring out who he was down the line) would have made the ‘masked man’ secret make more sense.

    Then again NTTD is a bit of an overstuffed film in terms of plot points so perhaps I can see why something like this wasn’t included. I still don’t think it’d solve the fundamental problem that Safin’s motives seem unclear and inconsistent for him as a character by the end of the film. I don’t really buy him as an ‘anarchist who wants to create chaos’ type. If this had been Silva then I could maybe imagine him going off the rails and doing something like that, but not Safin.
  • Posts: 1,068
    When Safin said he was "in love with Madeline Swan" I was going 'oh, I didn't know that'.'. Like a lot of the plot, this 'revelation' felt shoe-horned in. And wasn't that the same speech where Safin told Bond (and the audience) that the kid was, in fact, Bond's? (with no reaction at all from Bond on that pretty major revelation). Ugh.
    NTTD is a right mess if you think about it, you can feel the clunky writing all the way through it. You can imagine the production meeting meeting where they decide to kill off Felix. . .

    "Okay, next on the agenda, killing off Felix Leiter"
    "Are we really going to kill off Felix, as well as Blofeld and Bond, all in the same film, isn't that a bit much?"
    "Nah, people will think we're brave and cutting edge and 'breaking the mold' "
    "Oh, okay. Are we going to kill of Moneypenny and Q as well?"
    "I don't know yet, I'll ask Daniel when I see him, see if he'll give us the green light on that."
    "Okay. Anyway, I've been thinking about this one, what's Felix going to say before he dies, he should say something poignant . . ."
    "Yes! he could say his catchphrase"
    "Great idea, a well-loved character saying his catchphrase before he dies always works"
    "But guys . . . in all these years, in all these movies, Felix Leiter doesn't have a catchphrase"
    "That doesn't matter, we can have him say it once early in the film, and the audience will think it's his catchphrase when he says it again when he croaks"
    "Okay, so what's it going to be?"
    "How about 'it's a good life''?"
    "The sitcom with Felicity Kendall?"
    "No, it's just a thing he says, you know, a catchphrase"
    "But what does it mean?"
    "It doesn't have to mean anything, it's just something we need him to say when he dies, he can't just go 'arrrgghhh' he's got to utter something"
    "Okay, 'it's a good life', he can say that with his last breath, and we've got that poignant box ticked nicely, because it's obviously not a good life because he's dying. I'll write that down. It's. A. Good. Life. Great! That's Felix's last words sorted"
    "Now, next on the agenda, how do we get Matilde away from Safin on the island, we can't just have her running off in a strop and him just letting her go, the audience will think that's daft"
    "It's nearly twelve, break for lattes guys? let's take fifteen. . . "

    I still think NTTD well enough made to be a workable action/romance movie, if it wasn't a Bond movie. It's got enough thrills and spills and the cinematography is great.

    But as a James Bond movie, it bloody stinks.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited November 2023 Posts: 8,367
    When Safin said he was "in love with Madeline Swan" I was going 'oh, I didn't know that'.'. Like a lot of the plot, this 'revelation' felt shoe-horned in. And wasn't that the same speech where Safin told Bond (and the audience) that the kid was, in fact, Bond's? (with no reaction at all from Bond on that pretty major revelation). Ugh.
    NTTD is a right mess if you think about it, you can feel the clunky writing all the way through it. You can imagine the production meeting meeting where they decide to kill off Felix. . .

    "Okay, next on the agenda, killing off Felix Leiter"
    "Are we really going to kill off Felix, as well as Blofeld and Bond, all in the same film, isn't that a bit much?"
    "Nah, people will think we're brave and cutting edge and 'breaking the mold' "
    "Oh, okay. Are we going to kill of Moneypenny and Q as well?"
    "I don't know yet, I'll ask Daniel when I see him, see if he'll give us the green light on that."
    "Okay. Anyway, I've been thinking about this one, what's Felix going to say before he dies, he should say something poignant . . ."
    "Yes! he could say his catchphrase"
    "Great idea, a well-loved character saying his catchphrase before he dies always works"
    "But guys . . . in all these years, in all these movies, Felix Leiter doesn't have a catchphrase"
    "That doesn't matter, we can have him say it once early in the film, and the audience will think it's his catchphrase when he says it again when he croaks"
    "Okay, so what's it going to be?"
    "How about 'it's a good life''?"
    "The sitcom with Felicity Kendall?"
    "No, it's just a thing he says, you know, a catchphrase"
    "But what does it mean?"
    "It doesn't have to mean anything, it's just something we need him to say when he dies, he can't just go 'arrrgghhh' he's got to utter something"
    "Okay, 'it's a good life', he can say that with his last breath, and we've got that poignant box ticked nicely, because it's obviously not a good life because he's dying. I'll write that down. It's. A. Good. Life. Great! That's Felix's last words sorted"
    "Now, next on the agenda, how do we get Matilde away from Safin on the island, we can't just have her running off in a strop and him just letting her go, the audience will think that's daft"
    "It's nearly twelve, break for lattes guys? let's take fifteen. . . "

    I still think NTTD well enough made to be a workable action/romance movie, if it wasn't a Bond movie. It's got enough thrills and spills and the cinematography is great.

    But as a James Bond movie, it bloody stinks.

    That was hilarious =))

    Imagine the meeting where they had to figure out how the nanobots got from Bond's hands onto blofeld. :-j
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 12,837
    And wasn't that the same speech where Safin told Bond (and the audience) that the kid was, in fact, Bond's? (with no reaction at all from Bond on that pretty major revelation). Ugh.

    He might have been telling you mate but he wasn’t telling most of the audience. There’s no reaction from Bond because he already knew, like most of us already knew. The revelation came as soon as we first saw her. Madeline saying “she’s not yours”, even as Bond points out how much she looks like him, was her way of saying “I don’t want you as part of her life.”

    I thought that was incredibly obvious. Did you really think there was any chance of her actually not being his kid? Who else would have been the dad, some random off screen character? You can even see Nomi putting two and two together when Bond mentions the kid.

    We criticise these films all the time for having obvious, clunky dialogue, like that Felix line you mentioned. Then when they try to have a bit more respect for the audience’s intelligence we slag them off for not spelling it out explicitly enough. No wonder we’re stuck with Purvis and Wade.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,211
    And wasn't that the same speech where Safin told Bond (and the audience) that the kid was, in fact, Bond's? (with no reaction at all from Bond on that pretty major revelation). Ugh.

    He might have been telling you mate but he wasn’t telling most of the audience. There’s no reaction from Bond because he already knew, like most of us already knew. The revelation came as soon as we first saw her. Madeline saying “she’s not yours”, even as Bond points out how much she looks like him, was her way of saying “I don’t want you as part of her life.”

    I thought that was incredibly obvious. Did you really think there was any chance of her actually not being his kid? Who else would have been the dad, some random off screen character? You can even see Nomi putting two and two together when Bond mentions the kid.

    We criticise these films all the time for having obvious, clunky dialogue, like that Felix line you mentioned. Then when they try to have a bit more respect for the audience’s intelligence we slag them off for not spelling it out explicitly enough. No wonder we’re stuck with Purvis and Wade.

    Yes this is my reaction too: I was a bit surprised that anyone didn't realise Mathilde was his daughter. Of course it's no surprise to Bond.

    I'm also not really seeing the problem with Safin thinking he loves Madeline: he has more scenes with her than he does with Bond and we see the origins of their peculiar relationship (which he obviously sees as some kind of bond or debt).
  • Posts: 3,913
    I’m not gonna lie it’s one of those things that took me out of the film on my first viewing. I understand that there can be subtleties in terms of dialogue/how a scene is played, but I think the issue is it comes off in the moment as less an ambiguous line from Madeline and more as a piece of exposition. We’re not entirely sure if Bond knows either. So we take it at face value on first viewings, which makes that part with Safin a bit confusing until it ‘clicks’ if that makes sense.

    Like I said it’s a bit of an overstuffed film.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    I’m not gonna lie it’s one of those things that took me out of the film on my first viewing. I understand that there can be subtleties in terms of dialogue/how a scene is played, but I think the issue is it comes off in the moment as less an ambiguous line from Madeline and more as a piece of exposition. We’re not entirely sure if Bond knows either. So we take it at face value on first viewings, which makes that part with Safin a bit confusing until it ‘clicks’ if that makes sense.

    Like I said it’s a bit of an overstuffed film.

    It is an overstuffed film and there is a lot going on that went over my head when I first saw it, but that was never one of those things for me. They wouldn’t reveal a kid who wasn’t Bond’s the way they did, with that slinky falling down the stairs like a mic dropping. She’s been gone for five years, she has a “secret”, now all of a sudden she’s got a five year old kid with Bond’s eyes. Madeline shuts him down even though it’s obvious, Bond goes along with it even though he knows it’s his kid because he’s respecting her wishes. But I thought it was obvious they both knew, and there’s that bit in the car with Nomi that makes it even more obvious. “I didn’t know she had a daughter”, then she looks at Bond being all depressed and you can see her thinking “ohhhh” and it clicking in her head.
  • Posts: 1,068
    I thought that was incredibly obvious. Did you really think there was any chance of her actually not being his kid? Who else would have been the dad, some random off screen character? You can even see Nomi putting two and two together when Bond mentions the kid.

    I'm talking about in the context of the film, there had to be a reveal moment, even though the audience suspected the kid was Bond's. As the film played out, I suppose it was Safin that came out with the 'reveal', and I thought it was a little clumsy, how he just said it almost in passing.
    And yes, I did think there was a chance the kid wasn't Bond's the first time I watched it. I didn't take it for granted it was 100% Bond's, even though she did the belly-grab in the pre-credits sequence.
    I don't watch a lot of movies, but they seem to come with a lot of twists these days. They make the audience think one thing, then turn it on its head. They could have done the same here.
    Or perhaps I'm really as thick as you obviously think I am.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    Yeah I thought it was played well: I was hoping there wouldn't be a big reveal of her being his daughter because it would sort of be an insult to our intelligence- of course it's Bond daughter. When Madeline tells him she's not his I'm sure he does take that at face value initially, but, like us, it doesn't take him very long to figure out what's really going on.
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 3,913
    007HallY wrote: »
    I’m not gonna lie it’s one of those things that took me out of the film on my first viewing. I understand that there can be subtleties in terms of dialogue/how a scene is played, but I think the issue is it comes off in the moment as less an ambiguous line from Madeline and more as a piece of exposition. We’re not entirely sure if Bond knows either. So we take it at face value on first viewings, which makes that part with Safin a bit confusing until it ‘clicks’ if that makes sense.

    Like I said it’s a bit of an overstuffed film.

    It is an overstuffed film and there is a lot going on that went over my head when I first saw it, but that was never one of those things for me. They wouldn’t reveal a kid who wasn’t Bond’s the way they did, with that slinky falling down the stairs like a mic dropping. She’s been gone for five years, she has a “secret”, now all of a sudden she’s got a five year old kid with Bond’s eyes. Madeline shuts him down even though it’s obvious, Bond goes along with it even though he knows it’s his kid because he’s respecting her wishes. But I thought it was obvious they both knew, and there’s that bit in the car with Nomi that makes it even more obvious. “I didn’t know she had a daughter”, then she looks at Bond being all depressed and you can see her thinking “ohhhh” and it clicking in her head.

    I wouldn’t say it went over my head. It just takes you out of the film a bit with the way it’s handled. I think my general thoughts watching it the first time were, ‘ok, she’s 5 and has Bond’s eyes, but this is a strange thing to do in the context of a Bond film and Madeline’s pretty clearly told us it’s not his… I guess she could be a surrogate daughter for Bond if she isn’t… weird.’

    I dunno, maybe if they’d left it a bit more open ended at Mathilde’s reveal. Perhaps Madeline would refuse to answer Bonds question at first before it’s confirmed later…. Something like that might have helped.
  • Posts: 1,068
    I wasn't wanting a big reveal moment, (I'd rather the character not have a kid at all), but when I watched it the first time, I was hoping for something a little . . . tidier.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,785
    No, it's not Bond's daughter, neither was Madeleine's, sure, her eyes are blue (thanks there, CGI), but her hair is not blonde (both Bond and Maddie are blonde), it's not their kid, it's a child of someone else's couple and Madeleine just happened to take care of that kid, wait, I think that would've been a good excuse on Madeleine's part 😅.
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 12,837
    I thought that was incredibly obvious. Did you really think there was any chance of her actually not being his kid? Who else would have been the dad, some random off screen character? You can even see Nomi putting two and two together when Bond mentions the kid.

    I'm talking about in the context of the film, there had to be a reveal moment, even though the audience suspected the kid was Bond's. As the film played out, I suppose it was Safin that came out with the 'reveal', and I thought it was a little clumsy, how he just said it almost in passing.
    And yes, I did think there was a chance the kid wasn't Bond's the first time I watched it. I didn't take it for granted it was 100% Bond's, even though she did the belly-grab in the pre-credits sequence.
    I don't watch a lot of movies, but they seem to come with a lot of twists these days. They make the audience think one thing, then turn it on its head. They could have done the same here.
    Or perhaps I'm really as thick as you obviously think I am.

    I don’t think you’re thick, that’s why I’m surprised you didn’t know she was his. The reveal moment was her being introduced. Like you said, with the way they set it up, it would have been a twist if she wasn’t Bond’s, so I think that’s what would have needed a reveal moment if it was true. Suppose they could have been setting that up, with Madeline’s denial actually being the truth right there in plain sight, but I didn’t see any reason to expect that.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2023 Posts: 6,210
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I thought it was played well: I was hoping there wouldn't be a big reveal of her being his daughter because it would sort of be an insult to our intelligence- of course it's Bond daughter. When Madeline tells him she's not his I'm sure he does take that at face value initially, but, like us, it doesn't take him very long to figure out what's really going on.

    Yes, the film is subtle enough to let us infer she is his daughter (and the slinky drop, which is basically a mic drop) instead of beating us over the head with the reveal.

    Imagine instead:

    "I have a DAUGHTER? You didn't TELL me?" Then Brosnan pain face.
  • echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I thought it was played well: I was hoping there wouldn't be a big reveal of her being his daughter because it would sort of be an insult to our intelligence- of course it's Bond daughter. When Madeline tells him she's not his I'm sure he does take that at face value initially, but, like us, it doesn't take him very long to figure out what's really going on.

    Yes, the film is subtle enough to let us infer she is his daughter (and the slinky drop, which is basically a mic drop) instead of beating us over the head with the reveal.

    Imagine instead:

    "I have a DAUGHTER? You didn't TELL me?" Then Brosnan pain face.

    Yeah it could easily have been way more overwrought. I guess you could have Bond protest a bit more after the reveal, have her deny it a couple more times, show a close up of her looking conflicted when she does. But I prefer the way they did it. Why waste more screentime (of a film that’s way too long already) spelling out the obvious.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited November 2023 Posts: 8,367
    better yet, why even have her deny it at all? what does that achieve? :-?
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2023 Posts: 3,134
    I just took 'She's not yours' as code for something like 'She's mine, you're not having her.' Never crossed my mind that Madeleine meant that she literally wasn't Bond's child, tbh. Clutching her stomach as the train door closed in Matera was a clue too, no?
  • Posts: 1,068
    If I'd have been doing the script, (what a horrible thought!), I'd have had Safin refer to the kid as 'this child' instead of 'your daughter', and left the reveal moment to Maddy with the line "she does have your eyes".
    When Safin said 'daughter' that kind of took me out the moment as I thought 'ah, so we're now to assume she's 100% Bond's daughter, are we?'
    The whole Bond as a dad thing, if they had to do it, was handled fine. From belly clutch, to slinky, to apple peel.
    It's just Safin dropping that out when he did, it felt clumsy.
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 12,837
    better yet, why even have her deny it at all? what does that achieve? :-?

    I think she denied it because of the way he flipped in the PTS. He took the villain’s word over hers because of his trust issues, seemed ready to let them both die at one point, then shoved her on a train and ghosted her. It makes sense that she wouldn’t want him involved with Mathilde after that, and that he’d have to earn that trust back.

    The problem imo is they didn’t really show him doing that, because they introduced the kid too late in the game when they were already trying to do too many other things. He sacrifices himself, but I think they needed more build up to that than him making her breakfast and doing some of the usual action hero stuff.
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