NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Posts: 372
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 357
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    Can't wait!

    s-l300.jpg
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    I think it works for Bond specifically. Because he chose a life of killing, he can never truly find a happy ending for himself. He lost Tracy, he lost Vesper, and now he lost his shot at being a part of a family, and in the end he accepts it because he did everything he could to protect them, which is why the last expression on his face that we see is him looking serene. He knows his legacy will last beyond his death. I think it’s beautiful.

    And that’s why I don’t view it as a sad ending. Certainly it’s more optimistic than CR or SF were. Maybe a lot of those most critical of the decision don’t have families themselves to really understand the point it was making… at least, not happy ones. I dunno, just thinking out loud…
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,527
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    No they didn’t. They created a woman 007, for probably 20 minutes of screen time. Don’t make strawman arguments; you can’t just make up things to get upset about.

    They said James Bond Will Return. That, by all accounts of the people in charge, will mean a male James Bond, not Mathilde Bond or anyone else.

    It doesn’t matter. Everyone will feel how they want to feel and be upset with what they want to be upset about. It’s pointless to keep going around and around.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,095
    How has it backfired? This film is a much bigger hit than STAR TREK GENERATIONS was even with inflation adjusted. Critics and audience ratings are even higher.

    I’m saying that it backfired on Paramount for killing Kirk. Film made about 73 $ mill, and was expecting to make $120 ish(domestic) That’s a lot for 1994. Wasn’t referring to NTTD’s box office. Didn’t clarify enough on my part. Paramount and Berman meant to kill Kirk as a shock stunt to make money, and to make sure everyone understood that The Next Generation cast was the flagship Trek vehicle at the time (passing the torch deal).

    The fact that you only view their deaths as “shock value” says a lot. So what’s the point of killing Tracy? “Shock value”?

    Anyway to get back on Bond topic, I met up with my cousin’s fiancé who had just watched a screener of NTTD. She was never really a fan of Craig as Bond, but despite that, the ending actually made her cry because she got that emotionally invested. I imagine the filmmakers love hearing those kinds of stories of audiences getting that swept up!
  • Posts: 7,506
    The films clearly attempted their own continuity, but it's been one foot in one foot out the whole time.

    Did they though? There was a minor attempt between DN and FRWl, but from GF onwards I don't think they bothered with it at all.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,095
    Even in GF they reference Bond and Felix’s last adventure being in Jaimaca.

    Of all the 20 films, I think the Connery ones are the closest there is to an “arc” as it began with Bond’s first encounter with SPECTRE in DN and his final confrontation in DAF. It’s not very elaborate, but it’s a thread we see between the films besides GF.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 526
    How has it backfired? This film is a much bigger hit than STAR TREK GENERATIONS was even with inflation adjusted. Critics and audience ratings are even higher.

    I’m saying that it backfired on Paramount for killing Kirk. Film made about 73 $ mill, and was expecting to make $120 ish(domestic) That’s a lot for 1994. Wasn’t referring to NTTD’s box office. Didn’t clarify enough on my part. Paramount and Berman meant to kill Kirk as a shock stunt to make money, and to make sure everyone understood that The Next Generation cast was the flagship Trek vehicle at the time (passing the torch deal).

    The fact that you only view their deaths as “shock value” says a lot. So what’s the point of killing Tracy? “Shock value”?

    Anyway to get back on Bond topic, I met up with my cousin’s fiancé who had just watched a screener of NTTD. She was never really a fan of Craig as Bond, but despite that, the ending actually made her cry because she got that emotionally invested. I imagine the filmmakers love hearing those kinds of stories of audiences getting that swept up!

    Eventually NTTD will be regarded as a shock value movie because of the ending. No more, and no less. Because the ending towers above everything else that happens. And no, I think killing Tracy in OHMSS was a major way to expand and open the door for the evolution of Bond for the future. It had a purpose. But Lazenby blew his chance. Oh well, he is a terrible actor anyway.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,095
    How has it backfired? This film is a much bigger hit than STAR TREK GENERATIONS was even with inflation adjusted. Critics and audience ratings are even higher.

    I’m saying that it backfired on Paramount for killing Kirk. Film made about 73 $ mill, and was expecting to make $120 ish(domestic) That’s a lot for 1994. Wasn’t referring to NTTD’s box office. Didn’t clarify enough on my part. Paramount and Berman meant to kill Kirk as a shock stunt to make money, and to make sure everyone understood that The Next Generation cast was the flagship Trek vehicle at the time (passing the torch deal).

    The fact that you only view their deaths as “shock value” says a lot. So what’s the point of killing Tracy? “Shock value”?

    Anyway to get back on Bond topic, I met up with my cousin’s fiancé who had just watched a screener of NTTD. She was never really a fan of Craig as Bond, but despite that, the ending actually made her cry because she got that emotionally invested. I imagine the filmmakers love hearing those kinds of stories of audiences getting that swept up!

    Eventually NTTD will be regarded as a shock value movie because of the ending. No more, and no less.

    At least it’ll always be regarded more favorably than trash like QOS.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,859
    Am I a strange sort of fan if I don’t care all that much about continuity or tying up loose ends?

    DN-DAD is the same man for me though, CR-NTTD is another one.

    DN-DAD is very loose with its continuity, but the title sequence of OHMSS, the Sean gadgets in George’s desk, the Tracy references in later episodes, and the old gadgets in DAD are convincing enough for me.

    CR-NTTD is a different affair, with a new man introduced in the first film and him dying in the last. Fair enough.

    I like it either way, both the more ambiguous suspend-your-disbelief winks between 1962 and 2002, as well as the clear timeline from 2006 to 2021.

    Funny how there are videos on YT trying to tie all 25 films together as to make it all fit. There is even one that claims ‘you have been watching the Bond films the wrong way’.

    Is it really so difficult to accept that it doesn’t have to fit, what’s wrong with a bit of ambiguity?
  • Posts: 526
    How has it backfired? This film is a much bigger hit than STAR TREK GENERATIONS was even with inflation adjusted. Critics and audience ratings are even higher.

    I’m saying that it backfired on Paramount for killing Kirk. Film made about 73 $ mill, and was expecting to make $120 ish(domestic) That’s a lot for 1994. Wasn’t referring to NTTD’s box office. Didn’t clarify enough on my part. Paramount and Berman meant to kill Kirk as a shock stunt to make money, and to make sure everyone understood that The Next Generation cast was the flagship Trek vehicle at the time (passing the torch deal).

    The fact that you only view their deaths as “shock value” says a lot. So what’s the point of killing Tracy? “Shock value”?

    Anyway to get back on Bond topic, I met up with my cousin’s fiancé who had just watched a screener of NTTD. She was never really a fan of Craig as Bond, but despite that, the ending actually made her cry because she got that emotionally invested. I imagine the filmmakers love hearing those kinds of stories of audiences getting that swept up!

    Eventually NTTD will be regarded as a shock value movie because of the ending. No more, and no less.

    At least it’ll always be regarded more favorably than trash like QOS.

    Check out the QOS appreciation thread. Many there would disagree. At any rate, I am done posting about NTTD, like I said in earlier post. Time to move on and leave it at being a bad memory.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,095
    How has it backfired? This film is a much bigger hit than STAR TREK GENERATIONS was even with inflation adjusted. Critics and audience ratings are even higher.

    I’m saying that it backfired on Paramount for killing Kirk. Film made about 73 $ mill, and was expecting to make $120 ish(domestic) That’s a lot for 1994. Wasn’t referring to NTTD’s box office. Didn’t clarify enough on my part. Paramount and Berman meant to kill Kirk as a shock stunt to make money, and to make sure everyone understood that The Next Generation cast was the flagship Trek vehicle at the time (passing the torch deal).

    The fact that you only view their deaths as “shock value” says a lot. So what’s the point of killing Tracy? “Shock value”?

    Anyway to get back on Bond topic, I met up with my cousin’s fiancé who had just watched a screener of NTTD. She was never really a fan of Craig as Bond, but despite that, the ending actually made her cry because she got that emotionally invested. I imagine the filmmakers love hearing those kinds of stories of audiences getting that swept up!

    Eventually NTTD will be regarded as a shock value movie because of the ending. No more, and no less.

    At least it’ll always be regarded more favorably than trash like QOS.

    Check out the QOS appreciation thread.

    Sounds more depressing than NTTD.

    What’s to like? The cars in the PTS going VROOM VROOM? Bond being terribly written?
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,610
    I was also annoyed at the haste of not only the death but the wrapping up of all the villians and bad guys.

    The death of Bond caused them to have to wrap up all the villains, because Bond must be there to protect the world

    Given this era I wouldn't be surprised if Madeline and Mathilde got back to Matera and discover Mathilde has an arch nemesis from her past, who pushed her off the slide or something
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    edited November 2021 Posts: 732
    QoS is no trash - it's flawed. Yet quite many people (me included) seem to enjoy it more and more over the years. I will never get over the insane (and harmful) editing - but I enjoy the film because of it's cast, the locations (even we are not allowed to fully enjoy them due to the editing again) and imho Craig's great performance and physicality.

    NTTD is in many, many ways better - starting with the beautiful locations we can fully enjoy (even I would have liked a bit more of Jamaica myself) and there is so much to celebrate and like in it. I (strangely) did not mind the ending ... because personally I doubt the next actor's tenure (which will come) will be able to pull me in as much as Craig's tenure did. I became a Bond fan (like many) at age 10 and Sean Connery will remain my favourite - but I became the huge Bond fan I am today due to Craig's interpretation. To me NTTD is waaaay better than SP and even with this for sure unexpected ending I now have 4 really good Bond movies and I am very happy with it. I will go and see any new Bond movie for sure and like I enjoyed them all from Roger or Timothy or Pierce - but I am quite sure they will make it different again and I will remain a fan but maybe not to such extent I am for Connery's and Craig's tenures.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 3,015
    What’s to like?...Bond being terribly written?
    'You shot him at pointblank range and threw him off a roof!'
    'I did my best not to.'

    That's funnier than getting into some deep water or New York New York, no?
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 372
    No they didn’t. They created a woman 007, for probably 20 minutes of screen time. Don’t make strawman arguments; you can’t just make up things to get upset about.

    They said James Bond Will Return. That, by all accounts of the people in charge, will mean a male James Bond, not Mathilde Bond or anyone else.

    Not if she has a sex change first.

  • I love how people who don’t like the ending are constantly playing the victim on here and going “why can’t you just disagree?” while also constantly making bollocks insinuations about why they went there. That’s why I find the criticism frustrating personally. No matter how many times people point out how much thematic sense it makes, or how some of us saw it coming way before the film released, it’s always “they just did it for shock value/chasing trends/copying Marvel/etc”. They can’t just say “I don’t like it because xyz”, instead they have to try to give their opinion more weight by making up these weird conspiracy theories about why EON did it.

    You weren’t in the writers room. Critiquing the film on its own terms is one thing, but making up an imaginary motivation for the ending and then getting angry about it just makes you look like a baby throwing their toys out of the pram.
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    edited November 2021 Posts: 74
    • Way too much polarity, conflict and one upmanship on here.
    • If you appreciate the film: great!
    • If you do not: also ok.
    • Not ok: presenting as a better class of Bond fan or film expert because you defend NNTD;
    • Defo not ok: demanding resignations/firings/ritual humiliation for those who made this movie.



    We ALL love Bond in different flavours and that is why the franchise has endured! It's why it WILL endure, too!


    I did enjoy most of the film. It is visually stunning, substantial and ambitious.
    Did not mind them killing 007 just disliked its failed balance between brutal (the short coda) and mawkish (his monologue on the island). Missions going tits up and personnel dying IS a real and gritty fact from which Fleming no doubt would not have shied. It does no harm to wake us up to that. I would just rather they had not crammed and rushed it so much.

    The 5 years / 5 year old kid thing is oddly a LOT like Iron Man, as is the death.

    • Craig's bathetic death in Layer Cake is to me, far more Bond like and could have been replicated:
    • he has accomplished mission, goes for tea at his club with a muse in his arm(a)s, is about to start car and BANG. Shock. Done. And a question mark over who dunnit, maybe even allowing one to speculate it was an inside job from mi6, given how much Bond knew about the Heracles et al.



    Love. Fatherhood. Death: Craig deserved 3 movies to confront ALL those. For all the shock value of the ending, it is ironically as glossy and sanitised and exaggerated as space lasers and invisible cars, thereby rendering it redundant.

    Had we known he would die, in advance? This could have been an event, a Bond to end all Bonds, possibly following to the letter rather than spirit, some Fleming template?
    You cannot make another On Her Majesty's Secret Service or remake it as that comes off like a hustle (TWINE has similar issue btw: easily remedied had Elektra's turn been the final scene twist and her death maybe the closing shot?).


    So I suspect, alas, that NTTD will NOT age well and become simply a pub quiz trivia point: that film where Bond dies; same way you can get 'that one with the exploding milk bottles' as a team point.

    Craig gave us, to my mind, a profound, perfect and punchy trilogy: Casino, Quantum, Skyfall. I leave it there. But I respect the endeavours of the subsequent outings and all who love them are entitled to do so, unreservedly.

    Bond 26: gimme a third way centrist mid road adventure. Not bland but not too dark either. GOLDENEYE? TOMORROW NEVER DIES? LIVING DAYLIGHTS. RUSSIA WITH LOVE. SPY WHO LOVED ME. SKYFALL..et al..that sorta tone?!

    Here endeth the lesson : happy tuesday ;) x
  • Posts: 372
    LOL the film, like my posts female Bond suggestions, should be taken with a pinch of salt instead of dead seriously indeed!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,015
    When Wishaw became Q, the end of Layer Cake acquired a whole new layer...
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited November 2021 Posts: 4,554
    TR007 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Here's something.

    When NTTD was released, someone posted an "illegal" video of Bond's death, filmed in the theater. I downloaded that but haven't looked at it in weeks.

    I just did. I slowed it way down and froze the image in the last frame in which we see Bond. Holy crap.

    As someone who views DC's Bond as Jungian in nature, as embodying the duality of man, what I saw made the hairs on my neck stand up--for lack of a better cliche.

    His image is split in two. Not his body. We see no blood and gore. What we see are two of him, one magnified and superimposed over the other, just as the screen goes completely white.

    :-O
    That scene cuts way too fast in the cinema. Would you be able to post a screenshot please?

    I'll see what I can do. But the mods might reject it for copyright and unlawful distribution.

    Meanwhile, I had not seen this review before. It best sums up my own feelings about the film:

    https://www.cnet.com/news/no-time-to-die-review-daniel-craig-says-goodbye-to-james-bond-in-style/
  • Posts: 7,506
    I love how people who don’t like the ending are constantly playing the victim on here and going “why can’t you just disagree?” while also constantly making bollocks insinuations about why they went there. That’s why I find the criticism frustrating personally. No matter how many times people point out how much thematic sense it makes, or how some of us saw it coming way before the film released, it’s always “they just did it for shock value/chasing trends/copying Marvel/etc”. They can’t just say “I don’t like it because xyz”, instead they have to try to give their opinion more weight by making up these weird conspiracy theories about why EON did it.

    You weren’t in the writers room. Critiquing the film on its own terms is one thing, but making up an imaginary motivation for the ending and then getting angry about it just makes you look like a baby throwing their toys out of the pram.


    ^Thank you!
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,261
    Talking of Bond beinh a voke bloke: So in B26 Bond will bang 10 [women and men in their mid-fourties And for me , the next Bond should be a coloured lesbian woman, the villain as well, bisexual Bond boys, and a black female Q and Felicia Leiter. And we should have a coloured Mr Moneypenny.
    :-? :bz :-q =D> :-SS :-B ;;) :P

    *comeanddive*

    I can imagine some people getting massive gasps.

    Title Song:


    New Bond theme:

  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    Talking of voke: So in B26 Bond will bang 10 girls, non older than 18.

    Watch yourself, now...
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 674
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    I'm fine with them not making any more Bond movies. They've made enough, and the subversion is only going to get worse as time goes on, IMO.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,727
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    I'm fine with them not making any more Bond movies. They've made enough, and the subversion is only going to get worse as time goes on, IMO.

    Hmm.. I'm not convinced they have done all that can be done with the character.

    There is a universe in which we can have a serious actor (even classically trained such as TD) bring a moderate but fresh take on 007, part fantasy, part heightened reality.
    Somewhere between DC's intensity & Dalton's Fleming-esque interpretation, but with enough self-awareness to make it fun, such as with Connery's early pseudo-realistic plots.
    You'd need a v good physical actor who is willing to understand the character.

    The writing is key - and can easily be more in line with the style of the M:I series, without copying it - hence creating a visually pleasing action adventure that gives it's lead and main characters enough time to breathe.
    More snooping around, building the plot - less pure action, less country-hopping.

    Good plot development should negate the need for DC-universe melodrama. It CAN be done, but do Babs and MichaelGW have the nouse to find the right kind of writer(s)...?
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    I'm fine with them not making any more Bond movies. They've made enough, and the subversion is only going to get worse as time goes on, IMO.
    Yeah, why can't they just keep telling the same story over and over again? Character development is for nerds!
  • Posts: 12,353
    I only don’t want them to make more if they make really stupid creative decisions and just keep getting worse. It’s been going since the early 60s though and mostly prospered under 6 different actors - I cannot imagine it going away anytime soon. My guess is we’re probably never going to see films like the Connery-Brosnan eras again though, as movies have changed and so have expectations. If I have any chief concern, it’s making the next movies too similar to Craig’s, given the adoration the producers have for him.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    I'm fine with them not making any more Bond movies. They've made enough, and the subversion is only going to get worse as time goes on, IMO.

    Subversion can be a good thing. Sticking to the same formula for everything leads to stagnation, which it seems is what some people want for some reason. Shaking things up exists to allow the old ways to come back stronger and more interesting.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Stamper wrote: »
    What if Bond never comes back?

    And the next Bond is the adventures of Mathilde Bond?

    After all, Barbara said James Bond will never be played by a woman, and that we need to create women's characters instead.

    Which is what they did with NTTD. They created a woman Bond. So that's one possibility that NTTD is a backdoor pilot to the new Bond. Mathilde Bond.

    I'm fine with them not making any more Bond movies. They've made enough, and the subversion is only going to get worse as time goes on, IMO.

    Subversion can be a good thing. Sticking to the same formula for everything leads to stagnation, which it seems is what some people want for some reason. Shaking things up exists to allow the old ways to come back stronger and more interesting.

    Agreed, and of course we still have all the Connery - Brosnan films for people to continue watching.

    Having said that, I'd love a modern Bond film where he checks into a hotel room and looks around for bugging like in the old days.
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