NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    slide_99 wrote: »

    The argument about DC's timeline being a self-contained arc doesn't hold much water since they've spent past 3 movies riding the coattails of the previous eras. They can't have it both ways. They can't say that DC's tenure is its own thing while making 50th anniversary movies. Bond isn't 6 different characters, he's one character.

    I see where you are coming from, but I beg to disagree... mostly by considering the counterfactual going forward, what would happen in Bond 26 if Bond #7 were to be the continuation of DC's Bond.

    Even if CR was not meant to start an arc, by setting Bond’s origin story in modern times, the filmmakers automatically put it in a different continuum from the Connery-to-Brosnan films, assuming that Bond!time flows in a linear fashion. Given the loose plot continuity, limited character development and sliding timeline of pre-Craig films, with enough suspension of disbelief, Brosnan’s Bond just might be the guy who had once fought Goldfinger or married Tracy; CR!Bond who had just got his 00 license definitely was not that guy.

    The effort to build on the events of earlier films starting from CR was a realistic approach, sure; but later films became “hostages” of earlier choices that had profound impact on a character tasked with greater emotional depth. This did not fit well into a long-running, potentially open-ended franchise. By the time of NTTD, Craig’s Bond was weighed down by so much dramatic baggage (grieving over Vesper, the Blofeld connection, the Madeleine romance) that seeing how DC was determined to leave, there was no way to pave the road for the next Bond except by wrapping up “his” Bond storyline one way or another (retirement or death) to resolve all these plotlines, especially with the addition of Mathilde in NTTD… unless the new Bond was to be a telenovela. It would be impossible for DC’s successor to shrug off these relationships and go back to business as usual as the same guy, to say nothing of the fact that in this “non-sliding” timeline, Bond is at about retirement age.

    Whether killing Bond was better than retirement is another matter. IMO it fits the tone of the Craig era, where writers have emphasised the inherent drama, and more importantly, they had already used the retirement option at the end of Spectre; but I understand people who are upset by NTTD’s finale after 15 years of emotional investment and are loathe to see a cultural icon killed ostensibly to “freshen up” the franchise, or to pay homage to the star. YMMV, but as someone less invested in Craig’s Bond compared to most of his predecessors, I would be happy to see the return of standalone films. The story involving Madeleine and Mathilde may have worked for DC’s Bond, but I would not want to either see them die or see them as regulars.

    I wholeheartedly agree with this.

    Even if I thought Madeleine was the best Bond girl of all time, I probably wouldn’t want to see a new iteration of her character ever again as if associate her too much of Craig’s iteration. She should remain exclusive to his run. I don’t even want to see a new Vesper again (unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).
  • BenjaminBenjamin usa
    Posts: 59
    ...unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).

    I don't think EON will go for this, but since Amazon now has partial ownership I've been wondering the same thing myself. Again, I don't think it'll ever happen, but it might be interesting to see some well-made period streaming movies set in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is that this might dilute the brand. Bond has for so long been a series of event movies, and so expanding into streaming might have considerable risks.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    Benjamin wrote: »
    ...unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).

    I don't think EON will go for this, but since Amazon now has partial ownership I've been wondering the same thing myself. Again, I don't think it'll ever happen, but it might be interesting to see some well-made period streaming movies set in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is that this might dilute the brand. Bond has for so long been a series of event movies, and so expanding into streaming might have considerable risks.

    I don’t think it’ll ever happen either. Just saying that’s the only way I can imagine seeing Vesper, or any character unique to those novels returning again. Aside from recurring characters like Felix or Mathis, unique characters like Tracy, Dr. No, Goldfinger, should never make a reappearance. I think that’s why EON created Madeleine, as they felt a new character made more sense for Craig whereas if they had brought back Tracy we’d be constantly anticipating a bullet hitting her head.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,115
    Benjamin wrote: »
    ...unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).

    I don't think EON will go for this, but since Amazon now has partial ownership I've been wondering the same thing myself. Again, I don't think it'll ever happen, but it might be interesting to see some well-made period streaming movies set in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is that this might dilute the brand. Bond has for so long been a series of event movies, and so expanding into streaming might have considerable risks.

    I don’t think it’ll ever happen either. Just saying that’s the only way I can imagine seeing Vesper, or any character unique to those novels returning again. Aside from recurring characters like Felix or Mathis, unique characters like Tracy, Dr. No, Goldfinger, should never make a reappearance. I think that’s why EON created Madeleine, as they felt a new character made more sense for Craig whereas if they had brought back Tracy we’d be constantly anticipating a bullet hitting her head.

    Yes, that is a good point. And of course Madeleine's back story is a bit similar to Tracy's...
  • No one else notice the clever connect between Dou Dou and the James Bond theme - as in Dou dou dou dou dou...dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou :)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    echo wrote: »
    Benjamin wrote: »
    ...unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).

    I don't think EON will go for this, but since Amazon now has partial ownership I've been wondering the same thing myself. Again, I don't think it'll ever happen, but it might be interesting to see some well-made period streaming movies set in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is that this might dilute the brand. Bond has for so long been a series of event movies, and so expanding into streaming might have considerable risks.

    I don’t think it’ll ever happen either. Just saying that’s the only way I can imagine seeing Vesper, or any character unique to those novels returning again. Aside from recurring characters like Felix or Mathis, unique characters like Tracy, Dr. No, Goldfinger, should never make a reappearance. I think that’s why EON created Madeleine, as they felt a new character made more sense for Craig whereas if they had brought back Tracy we’d be constantly anticipating a bullet hitting her head.

    Yes, that is a good point. And of course Madeleine's back story is a bit similar to Tracy's...

    Certainly an intentional nod to Tracy, but probably as far as they were willing to go. Instead of a broken woman who’s suicidal, it’s a therapist trying to escape her dreary upbringing.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,115
    No one else notice the clever connect between Dou Dou and the James Bond theme - as in Dou dou dou dou dou...dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou :)

    Okay, that's hilarious!
    echo wrote: »
    Benjamin wrote: »
    ...unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).

    I don't think EON will go for this, but since Amazon now has partial ownership I've been wondering the same thing myself. Again, I don't think it'll ever happen, but it might be interesting to see some well-made period streaming movies set in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is that this might dilute the brand. Bond has for so long been a series of event movies, and so expanding into streaming might have considerable risks.

    I don’t think it’ll ever happen either. Just saying that’s the only way I can imagine seeing Vesper, or any character unique to those novels returning again. Aside from recurring characters like Felix or Mathis, unique characters like Tracy, Dr. No, Goldfinger, should never make a reappearance. I think that’s why EON created Madeleine, as they felt a new character made more sense for Craig whereas if they had brought back Tracy we’d be constantly anticipating a bullet hitting her head.

    Yes, that is a good point. And of course Madeleine's back story is a bit similar to Tracy's...

    Certainly an intentional nod to Tracy, but probably as far as they were willing to go. Instead of a broken woman who’s suicidal, it’s a therapist trying to escape her dreary upbringing.

    Yes, Madeleine's much more of a modern woman. And this comes from someone who reveres the Tracy character.

    In SP I find Madeleine's feisty/angry scenes to be her best (not unlike Tracy)--particularly after the snow chase. And then she's great/vulnerable in L'Americain.

    If they had given her more feistiness/defiance at the Morocco base, either in the meteorite scene or when Bond is being tortured, her character would have made more of an impression in that film.

    Madeleine just seems so passive/along for the ride throughout this section (compare, say, Honey), and of course, she gets kidnapped--yawn.

    It's like the writers forgot about her character at this point. If they had kept better track of her, when she leaves Bond before the climax, it would have had more impact.
  • BenjaminBenjamin usa
    Posts: 59
    https://variety.com/2021/film/opinion/no-time-to-die-critics-dialogue-james-bond-daniel-craig-1235084265/

    Owen Gleiberman: ...."Consider how the ending of “No Time to Die” completes the James Bond films. Think of how many of those movies, over 60 years, reference death in the title. “Live and Let Die.” “Tomorrow Never Dies.” “Die Another Day.” “You Only Live Twice.” The essence of James Bond, as a character, is that he lives every day on the edge of death — and that he embraces that precarious and existential state of being. It’s what liberates him. (It’s what makes him, in the earlier films, a libertine.) But the reason he accepts death is that he knows he’d be dying for a higher purpose: MI6, Britain, Western Civilization. He’s the knight of the postwar world, and he lives out its freedoms and its pleasures. But he’ll die, at any moment, for that life he believes in protecting. And that’s why what he does at the end of “No Time to Die” feels right. It’s not a change of character. It’s a quintessentially Bondian move. He embraces death…as an act of saving."
  • Posts: 4,602
    There were rumours of a cloning theme to the NTTD. What if Q stored Bond's DNA and they clone another Jame's Bond. More sensible than some of the ideas posted? (yes, I know, bonkers)
  • BenjaminBenjamin usa
    Posts: 59
    A 1-minute video that might give comfort for those mourning the fate that faced Dou Dou.

  • edited October 2021 Posts: 372
    I'm not sure, I think they may go the MWTGG route, and have Blofeld having a re-created Bond going to assassinate M.
    Then Bond is taken prisoner by MI6 and set back on his feet.
    As the Bond series always try to stay on the edge of the real world "progress", I think transhumanism is going to be explored next, allowing to build upon the Craig era set-up.
    That will mean Bond + Blofeld back, and the saga continuing.
    It's also very Fleming. In YOLT he died, having being transformed and more humanised than ever by the OHMSS events.
    Clearly TMWTGG was meant to start a huge evolution in the series, having a "NU" Bond now still going.
    I don't think they ever intended the Craigs as a mini-series. I think the intent was setting the fundactions for the next 40 years of 007, and I remember either Babs or Craig saying so in past interviews.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    I think the Blofeld character will be retired indefinitely. It was a deliberate choice in LALD to not bring him back (the rights wouldn’t become an issue until TSWLM was being made). It’s better they put him aside for awhile when bringing up a new Bond. Only use Blofeld again if there’s ever a strong hook. Hopefully better than what they did with SP.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    Even if I thought Madeleine was the best Bond girl of all time, I probably wouldn’t want to see a new iteration of her character ever again as if associate her too much of Craig’s iteration. She should remain exclusive to his run. I don’t even want to see a new Vesper again (unless there’s ever a series of streaming movie adaptations faithful to the novels, but that’s a whole other thing).

    I agree as well. No Vesper, no Tracy, no Madeleine - give the new timeline a new love interest. I know others have mentioned a desire to see Gala Brand adapted, and I too would welcome that, but I wouldn't object to another original character a la Madeleine. Just not the Madeleine.
    No one else notice the clever connect between Dou Dou and the James Bond theme - as in Dou dou dou dou dou...dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou, dou :)

    It's confirmed - Mathilde is the new 007. ;)
    Benjamin wrote: »
    A 1-minute video that might give comfort for those mourning the fate that faced Dou Dou.


    I will feel much better when I see the film again tonight!
  • mattjoesmattjoes TINY TIM
    Posts: 6,947
    patb wrote: »
    There were rumours of a cloning theme to the NTTD. What if Q stored Bond's DNA and they clone another Jame's Bond. More sensible than some of the ideas posted? (yes, I know, bonkers)

    Reminds me of Jurassic Park.
  • Posts: 131
    I don’t even want to see a new Vesper again

    Agree. Eva Green's was as definitive a portrayal of Vesper as Diana Rigg's was of Tracy, and Vesper as a character belongs firmly in Casino Royale, which is in no need of remakes for the foreseeable future.
    Benjamin wrote: »
    it might be interesting to see some well-made period streaming movies set in the 1950s and 1960s. The problem is that this might dilute the brand.

    I'd like to see these, and period stories are certainly a more feasible proposition via streaming as opposed to cinema releases. If the makers keep two distinct Bond story formats/timelines, period films or series on TV and modern-setting films as "event cinema", it could strengthen the brand by potentially attracting a wider viewership rather than dilute it. Other "universes" (OK, mostly superhero-centric, but still) have branched into TV series (and/or cartoons) and it helped rather than hurt them.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1,165
    I think the Blofeld character will be retired indefinitely. It was a deliberate choice in LALD to not bring him back (the rights wouldn’t become an issue until TSWLM was being made). It’s better they put him aside for awhile when bringing up a new Bond. Only use Blofeld again if there’s ever a strong hook. Hopefully better than what they did with SP.
    Unfortunately, parody films have made him a pastiche that mainstream audiences will likely never take seriously unless he’s reintroduced with vigor… which didn’t happen in SP. I know people love Skyfall and think Silva is the bees knees and all that, but what Mendes effectively did with that movie was sink the attempt at integrating Bond in a realistic environment and returned him to the realm of comic book stuff. Le Chiffre was a fairly realistic villian, as was Greene... Silva is just the Joker. Blofeld was Lex Luthor. Silva is more or less Ra's Al Ghul. I like that stuff, really I do... but it jettisoned everything CR/QOS worked towards.

    SPECTRE can still be on the table, but Blofeld should stay in the past.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Benjamin wrote: »
    ...For me Daniel's era knocked all the others into the shade the first three and majesties were still great but this one is so special I do not really care if its the end. This is not a bit of escapism its a statement about tragedy, about sacrifice about the passage of time the use of it, time lost. It's about something we have lost, that our children and the young come before all, that there is a time when there is a "Reason To Die" and what is so wonderful is the story and its transmission is all wrapped up in the best values of the franchise.

    Thanks for your wonderful review. I agree.

    Same here.
  • Posts: 131
    mattjoes wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    There were rumours of a cloning theme to the NTTD. What if Q stored Bond's DNA and they clone another Jame's Bond. More sensible than some of the ideas posted? (yes, I know, bonkers)

    Reminds me of Jurassic Park.

    :)) :)) :))
  • Posts: 4,602
    Trouble is, the plotline re DNA specific nanobots is about as believable as cloning Bond.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    Minion wrote: »
    I think the Blofeld character will be retired indefinitely. It was a deliberate choice in LALD to not bring him back (the rights wouldn’t become an issue until TSWLM was being made). It’s better they put him aside for awhile when bringing up a new Bond. Only use Blofeld again if there’s ever a strong hook. Hopefully better than what they did with SP.
    Unfortunately, parody films have made him a pastiche that mainstream audiences will likely never take seriously unless he’s reintroduced with vigor… which didn’t happen in SP. I know people love Skyfall and think Silva is the bees knees and all that, but what Mendes effectively did with that movie was sink the attempt at integrating Bond in a realistic environment and returned him to the realm of comic book stuff. Le Chiffre was a fairly realistic villian, as was Greene... Silva is just the Joker. Blofeld was Lex Luthor. Silva is more or less Ra's Al Ghul. I like that stuff, really I do... but it jettisoned everything CR/QOS worked towards.

    I disagree. CR was fairly grounded because it more or less reflected the tone of the novel, which was still fantastical in concept rather than “realistic”. I never took that film to be a signifier that all of Craig’s films would stick to that, and I think it was a mistake for critics of Mendes’ films to assume that much. When CR came out I was always confident that the Bond film tropes would gradually be integrated, and it felt natural that Craig’s fourth would culminate the way it did (I only wish Quantum, an abysmal name, was left unnamed like in CR for a smoother transition but oh well).

    I thought QOS really bungled partly because it tried to act way too hard as a sequel to CR rather than progress towards the traditional Bondian elements. There was no reason not to bring back Q, for example. There was no reason to continue the Bond Begins stuff when it was beautifully concluded in CR. So I was very relieved when SF returned to the tone of classic films while at the same time feeling not too distant from CR.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,853
    patb wrote: »
    Trouble is, the plotline re DNA specific nanobots is about as believable as cloning Bond.

    My main concern is that because they "did it in a Bond movie", people will feed conspiracy theories about Bill Gates using Covid vaccines to make us all subservient. ;-)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Trouble is, the plotline re DNA specific nanobots is about as believable as cloning Bond.

    My main concern is that because they "did it in a Bond movie", people will feed conspiracy theories about Bill Gates using Covid vaccines to make us all subservient. ;-)

    You sure sound subservient, though.
  • Posts: 320
    Dead as a Dou Dou

    😊

    And not to be confused with Sergeant Deux-Deux.
    The Inspector cartoon show. The Inspector's young and timid assistant, Sergeant Deux-Deux (pronounced "Doo-Doo"), is a slow-talking Spaniard and gendarme who loves Mexican food.

    7c9ba9_19e47a4dbc8b4a588a2db099498eada9.jpg





  • Bond/Madeleine.

    I can only explain what I see. They are both on the outside both have had experiences which makes them profoundly different from those around them.

    He is a sociopath for king and country she has been hiding for ever.

    She is attracted to him but in denial just that instant thing that happens between people. He on the other hand as with all things is acting under an obligation in this case to White. Like Sciarra's wife but differently he believes he is filling a need except this time he is with a woman that holds him off and of course he is a kite in a Hurricane.

    She being the psychiatrist shows him there is away out of all of this and they eventually drive off across the channel and down the coast to Matera and whilst they are letting go cannot keep their hands off each other there are still ghosts for both of them. They are having more romance and stuff going on between them than most people experience in a life time. His body language emits entirely satisfied and her the cat with the cream. It oozes off the screen. He is so relaxed and she is all over him.

    Then it all goes wrong and eventually we are in Norway and somehow Lea and Daniel manage to convey with body language alone their connectedness their comfort with each other, their closeness and that they never stopped loving each other that they have always been in each others minds. When people really know each other they use a kind of physical short hand between themselves and I see it in spades. They inhabit the same space so knowingly and then off we go and he is stalwart and determined and heroic and she is at turns determined terrified and very very emotional and those lines about there is no one to stop us now elevate the entire story to another level they glimpsed Paradise but found death but out of it came a future.

    For me Daniel's era knocked all the others into the shade the first three and majesties were still great but this one is so special I do not really care if its the end. This is not a bit of escapism its a statement about tragedy, about sacrifice about the passage of time the use of it, time lost. It's about something we have lost, that our children and the young come before all, that there is a time when there is a "Reason To Die" and what is so wonderful is the story and its transmission is all wrapped up in the best values of the franchise.



    Thank you for this. I fully agree and this is exactly how I felt watching the film and how I think it was meant to be understood. It truly made a repeat viewing of the PTS a more heart-wrenching experience knowing the full scale of the movie's plot. I don't think anyone else could have played this but Craig and Seydoux. Your last paragraph is so well stated.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,853
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Trouble is, the plotline re DNA specific nanobots is about as believable as cloning Bond.

    My main concern is that because they "did it in a Bond movie", people will feed conspiracy theories about Bill Gates using Covid vaccines to make us all subservient. ;-)

    You sure sound subservient, though.

    Only to my wife, @Thunderfinger. ;-)
    Bond/Madeleine.

    I can only explain what I see. They are both on the outside both have had experiences which makes them profoundly different from those around them.

    He is a sociopath for king and country she has been hiding for ever.

    She is attracted to him but in denial just that instant thing that happens between people. He on the other hand as with all things is acting under an obligation in this case to White. Like Sciarra's wife but differently he believes he is filling a need except this time he is with a woman that holds him off and of course he is a kite in a Hurricane.

    She being the psychiatrist shows him there is away out of all of this and they eventually drive off across the channel and down the coast to Matera and whilst they are letting go cannot keep their hands off each other there are still ghosts for both of them. They are having more romance and stuff going on between them than most people experience in a life time. His body language emits entirely satisfied and her the cat with the cream. It oozes off the screen. He is so relaxed and she is all over him.

    Then it all goes wrong and eventually we are in Norway and somehow Lea and Daniel manage to convey with body language alone their connectedness their comfort with each other, their closeness and that they never stopped loving each other that they have always been in each others minds. When people really know each other they use a kind of physical short hand between themselves and I see it in spades. They inhabit the same space so knowingly and then off we go and he is stalwart and determined and heroic and she is at turns determined terrified and very very emotional and those lines about there is no one to stop us now elevate the entire story to another level they glimpsed Paradise but found death but out of it came a future.

    For me Daniel's era knocked all the others into the shade the first three and majesties were still great but this one is so special I do not really care if its the end. This is not a bit of escapism its a statement about tragedy, about sacrifice about the passage of time the use of it, time lost. It's about something we have lost, that our children and the young come before all, that there is a time when there is a "Reason To Die" and what is so wonderful is the story and its transmission is all wrapped up in the best values of the franchise.

    Best post I've read in a long time.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    It’s gonna be hard to go back to the old films after this masterful Craig era.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,624
    I hope they do go for a complete Goldeneye style reboot, nothing from the DC era carrying over, let it be its own universe.

    I do feel nervous about Bond 26 though, because everything is on the table with the ending of NTTD, I never thought we'd witness the death of Bond. Now we have I think subverting expectations will become the new normal going forward and standalone missions will be a think of the past.

    Whenever Barbara talks about the next Bond film, she talks about what emotional journey Bond will go on, so I can't see standalone impersonal missions coming back and I think Bond being promiscuous has gone too. It's more likely they'll build another new universe with Bond #7, which to my mind would dilute the specialness of Daniel's run.

    Daniel is my favourite and I've loved the arc we've gone on with him but I do think his world is the smallest of all the actors, every new character seems to know of past characters and events and such. As much I enjoyed Spectre and NTTD, I sort of wish we would have got to see that mission M handed to him at the end of Skyfall instead
  • Posts: 6,690
    mattjoes wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    There were rumours of a cloning theme to the NTTD. What if Q stored Bond's DNA and they clone another Jame's Bond. More sensible than some of the ideas posted? (yes, I know, bonkers)

    Reminds me of Jurassic Park.

    :)) :)) :))

    They’d clone a “sexist misogynistic dinosaur”
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,027
    Minion wrote: »
    I know people love Skyfall and think Silva is the bees knees and all that, but what Mendes effectively did with that movie was sink the attempt at integrating Bond in a realistic environment and returned him to the realm of comic book stuff. Le Chiffre was a fairly realistic villian, as was Greene... Silva is just the Joker. Blofeld was Lex Luthor....it jettisoned everything CR/QOS worked towards.
    Yes, I'm another one of those six blokes that preferred QOS to SF. I remember the sinking feeling I got when I heard that SF would have gags, gadgets, Moneypenny, Q, etc. I really feared them ditching what they'd built since 2006 and doing a 360 back towards DAD. When I saw SF, I was relieved that they hadn't gone all the way back down the path, but thought it a big drop off from the first two Craig films. I do like it a lot but I loved CR and QOS and wanted as much more of that as I could get.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    Given the complaints of Bond only sleeping with one woman, do you guys realize who’s the only other Bond to only sleep with one woman in a film?
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