Do you have any concerns or niggles about NTTD ,or are you full of confidence ?

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  • Posts: 3,279
    HASEROT wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    HASEROT wrote: »
    it also was praised by critics... it wasnt until after the fact that fans and critics looking back went "oh yeah, probably wasn't as good as we initially thought it was."
    Same can be said about the overhyped SF.

    SF has only really dropped to a lot of us hardcore Bond fans... the general public or Casual Bond fans and critics still rate that movie really high.. so it's not really the same.. MR had a falling out with everyone across the board.

    and for the record i still think SF is in that top tier of great Bond movies.. its just not the best..
    The only Bond film worthy of such praise in recent times is CR.

    its the only one out of the Craig era that has maintained it's high praise since release - it was loved then, and it's still loved now - CR was the definition of an instant classic...

    It's no coincidence that CR lent heavily on a Fleming novel. Mmmmm....pattern emerges here me thinks!

    Every time EON go back to Fleming material, it usually works out well for them...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,022
    SF was better than CR. As for being close to Fleming, I wish CR was closer than it actually turned out.
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,167
    SF was better than CR. As for being close to Fleming, I wish CR was closer than it actually turned out.

    SF is better lensed than CR and has a better PTS. CR is better than SF in all other departments, script, plot, score, etc.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,022
    Zekidk wrote: »
    SF was better than CR. As for being close to Fleming, I wish CR was closer than it actually turned out.

    CR is better than SF in all other departments, script, plot, score, etc.

    I disagree, especially when SF has a much more riveting climax than the sinking house nonsense. Had CR been a more tout film without being crammed with the superfluous bomber chase sequences and a more faithful take on the deterioration between Bond and Vesper, it would be a stronger film.

    And Arnold has the better score? Not when Newman delivers something as funky as “Shanghai Drive”. CR isn’t even Arnold’s best work (that’s DAD or QOS).
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,167
    Sorry, a Bond movie that revolves around a plot with a villain who has mommy issues and a ludicrous master plan which consists of getting captured, only so he can escape and walk into a public building guns blazing, is certainly not that kind of writing I ever want to see again in a Bond movie. CR is so far Craig’s strongest entry – the chemistry between Bond and Vesper especially.

    I never said that CR is Arnold's best work, btw. But he has some wonderful cues in there - Vesper theme, City of lovers etc - that I didn't find in Newman's work (which I don't hate like many others here - I just found it mediocre)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,022
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Sorry, a Bond movie that revolves around a plot with a villain who has mommy issues and a ludicrous master plan which consists of getting captured, only so he can escape and walk into a public building guns blazing, is certainly not that kind of writing I ever want to see again in a Bond movie. CR is so far Craig’s strongest entry – the chemistry between Bond and Vesper especially.

    The “mommy issues” with Silva is the feature, not the bug. It’s a major part of what makes him the most captivating Bond villain since Trevelyan (certainly a breath of fresh air after the yawn inducing Greene). Easily.


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  • Posts: 3,167
    [the most captivating Bond villain since Trevelyan (certainly a breath of fresh air after the yawn inducing Greene). Easily
    How can a rehash of the Trevelyan character - former disgruntled employee on a personal vendetta - be "fresh air"? I'd much rather prefer another supervillain with evil plans to destroy the world, than a stooge who's only there to be a plotdevice for Dench's swansong.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,022
    That was more of a swipe against Greene, notice the parentheses. For me the scheme isn’t what makes a great villain, it’s the character and performance and Bardem really delivers. Just because he’s not scheming for the world doesn’t make him less memorable.
  • Posts: 3,167
    Good for you that you find him memorable. They way he was written insults my intelligence. His motivation changes constantly:
    We learn that he is a master hacker, and can plant bombs everywhere. And that he wants to look M in the face or something, which is the reason for not just blowing her up. Fair enough. He lets himself get captured, so he can escape only to crash a parliamentary meeting - like a street thug - to shot her. The scheme fails. An incompetent Bond - who, like Q, fails at almost everything that he is doing - then drives the head of MI6 to an isolated place in Scotland with no protection, only to be attacked by Silva in a chopper with a 20mm canon. After turning the place to swiss cheese - out of the blue - Silva now wants M to help him commit suicide. I mean.... seriously?

    I actually like that they made Bardem look like a 70's porn director, and his entrance on the island is grand as it should be. But there are simply too many inconsistencies delivered in order for me to suspend my disbelief. Part of the reason is because SF takes itself so serious.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,028
    SF was better than CR.

    No way, José.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,022
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Good for you that you find him memorable. They way he was written insults my intelligence. His motivation changes constantly:
    We learn that he is a master hacker, and can plant bombs everywhere. And that he wants to look M in the face or something, which is the reason for not just blowing her up. Fair enough. He lets himself get captured, so he can escape only to crash a parliamentary meeting - like a street thug - to shot her. The scheme fails. An incompetent Bond - who, like Q, fails at almost everything that he is doing - then drives the head of MI6 to an isolated place in Scotland with no protection, only to be attacked by Silva in a chopper with a 20mm canon. After turning the place to swiss cheese - out of the blue - Silva now wants M to help him commit suicide. I mean.... seriously?

    I actually like that they made Bardem look like a 70's porn director, and his entrance on the island is grand as it should be. But there are simply too many inconsistencies delivered in order for me to suspend my disbelief. Part of the reason is because SF takes itself so serious.

    Your complaints seem to indicate your misunderstanding of what the film is going for, like the bit about how characters failing is something the film did on accident and was unaware of it. Maybe seeing characters fail is not something you want to see in a Bond film, and that’s fair. I take the film on its own merits and think it does all of that in a way that’s compelling. I know I’m not the only one that feels that way given it’s appraisal. It’s not a conventional Bond film, that’s for sure. While you think it takes itself too seriously, I don’t see that. Rather I see itself take itself earnestly.
    SF was better than CR.

    No way, José.

    It’s called an opinion. ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,028
    SF was better than CR.

    No way, José.

    It’s called an opinion. ;)

    Don't worry, I know. ;)

    I like SF too, as much now as I did when it came out, but I think CR is rightly held up on its pedestal.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,022
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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,485
    SF gets better each time I watch it.... and I already loved it, lol.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,022
    peter wrote: »
    SF gets better each time I watch it.... and I already loved it, lol.

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  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    peter wrote: »
    SF gets better each time I watch it.... and I already loved it, lol.

    Weird even I have CR above in my ranking still SF has more rewatchabality.
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,167
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Good for you that you find him memorable. They way he was written insults my intelligence. His motivation changes constantly:
    We learn that he is a master hacker, and can plant bombs everywhere. And that he wants to look M in the face or something, which is the reason for not just blowing her up. Fair enough. He lets himself get captured, so he can escape only to crash a parliamentary meeting - like a street thug - to shot her. The scheme fails. An incompetent Bond - who, like Q, fails at almost everything that he is doing - then drives the head of MI6 to an isolated place in Scotland with no protection, only to be attacked by Silva in a chopper with a 20mm canon. After turning the place to swiss cheese - out of the blue - Silva now wants M to help him commit suicide. I mean.... seriously?

    I actually like that they made Bardem look like a 70's porn director, and his entrance on the island is grand as it should be. But there are simply too many inconsistencies delivered in order for me to suspend my disbelief. Part of the reason is because SF takes itself so serious.

    Your complaints seem to indicate your misunderstanding of what the film is going for

    Which is what exactly?
    Maybe seeing characters fail is not something you want to see in a Bond film, and that’s fair.
    No. I just don't want Bond to be that incompetent. I get it's a matter óf taste, and that part of SF's success is seing a wounded, hurt Bond, unsure of himself, out of his element and played out. Not really for me.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,022
    For one not calling for reinforcements wasn’t a sign of incompetence, as it wasn’t even Bond’s call but rather M’s. Her reasoning made sense as laid out during the moment it finally dawned on her how badly things turned out because of decisions whether just or questionable. People were dying because of what turned out to be less of a state issue and more of a personal one, and she decided this was something that should be settled without more people getting killed, and accepted the possible consequence of actually dying to settle it. This was all laid out during her kidnapping scene. When Bond headed for Skyfall he at least had a plan in mind and probably would have actually succeeded in keeping M alive had his weapons not been confiscated. The fact he was able to bring down Silva and his men despite being outgunned and outmanned is a demonstration of just how Bond still has it, that he’s not quite out of it. That M died was an unfortunate loss, but not an unexpected one as it was already put on the table in the first scene with Mallory. She died, but at least she died after having settled with the mistakes of her past and was grateful for Bond personally helping her see to it.

    But again, I can see this may not be what certain fans want to see out of a Bond film. I recall certain fans upset with CR because it ended with the Bond girl being a traitor and killing herself. Of course fans that were actually familiar with the novel don’t mind that, as we have all accepted it long ago as part of Fleming’s canon, and we tend to treat everything Fleming as gospel that shouldn’t be questioned or altered (well, not everything ala LALD).

    For what it’s worth, I used to criticize TWINE back in the day for depicting Bond as incompetent, but soon realized that the entire point was seeing Bond vulnerable and not seeing beyond the surface because of his injury to him and his ego. It’s something I commend the filmmakers for aiming for, despite how lacking the execution was. With SF I feel the nailed it. Heck, CR and QOS weren’t exactly short of depicting Bond lacking competence, as the conceit for that was it was “Bond Begins”.
  • Posts: 3,167
    we tend to treat everything Fleming as gospel that shouldn’t be questioned or altered.
    Do we? I don't. Love how Lewis Gilbert "treated" Fleming. I grew up on the movies, not the books, and for me part of the legacy is an almost untouchable Bond always in his right element where you are never in doubt of his skills. He gets the job done. In SF he gets nothing done. The villain gets everything he wants: he wants to reveal MI6s agents, to kill M and to die.
    For what it’s worth, I used to criticize TWINE back in the day for depicting Bond as incompetent.
    Another Bond movie which SF borrows heavily from.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,022
    Zekidk wrote: »
    we tend to treat everything Fleming as gospel that shouldn’t be questioned or altered.
    Do we? I don't. Love how Lewis Gilbert "treated" Fleming. I grew up on the movies, not the books, and for me part of the legacy is an almost untouchable Bond always in his right element where you are never in doubt of his skills. He gets the job done. In SF he gets nothing done. The villain gets everything he wants: he wants to reveal MI6s agents, to kill M and to die.

    It’s not as cut and dry as you put it. He didn’t get to kill M personally himself, hence earlier trying to tell his goons “she’s mine” and how upset he gets when he sees her having a wound he didn’t give her, so he essentially “lost” in never getting to kill the person he targeting by his own hand. It’s definitely a case where both Bond and the villain lose in a sense. But if you prefer Bond films more clear cut like “kills the bad guy saves the day”, then SF is clearly not adhering to your Bond formula.
    For what it’s worth, I used to criticize TWINE back in the day for depicting Bond as incompetent.
    Another Bond movie which SF borrows heavily from.

    Which concerned me prior to the film coming out. Thankfully it took ideas that were present in TWINE and improved. On them. But if merely borrowing elements from a previous film is a bad thing, I wonder why you give Lewis Gilbert a pass. For me all that matters is how well a Bond film is executed, no whether or not it reused things from previous films.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,996
    Quickly regarding Skyfall Bond does what he always does: stops the villain. There was a high cost with this particular sacrificial lamb, that was by design and for a point.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,022
    Quickly regarding Skyfall Bond does what he always does: stops the villain. There was a high cost with this particular sacrificial lamb, that was by design and for a point.

    True. Ultimately their plan was to draw Silva away from the public and into an area that would isolate him and take him off the grid. I think many Bond fans seem to forget that the film has M actually make a point of how she doesn’t want anyone else involved in this instance. It’s also worth noting that by drawing Silva there, whatever may happen Q and MI6 will be able to zero in on Silva. Since Bond killed him and all his men, that wasn’t necessary and eventually MI6 would came over to Skyfall to collect Bond and M’s body.
  • Posts: 3,167
    But if you prefer Bond films more clear cut like “kills the bad guy saves the day”, then SF is clearly not adhering to your Bond formula.

    You are absolutely right!

    I am not arguing that Skyfall is a bad movie, but as a Bond movie I find it weak.

    Bond films were always about an attractive, charming super spy who would save the world and always got the girl in the end.
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    They featured several attractive woman, outrageously over the top action setpieces, unrealistic gadgets, memorable villains and henchmen. They were fun.

    Now with the Daniel Craig Bond, and especially in Skyfall here, they've focused more on characters and realism. They served us Bond as a real person, someone who is human and flawed, who had a difficult childhood and has a psychotic foster brother.
    JWZEAWA.jpg

    In doing that, they took that fantasy out of the recent films that is one of many integral parts of the Bond film formula, and judging from the NTTD trailer I am not entirely convinced that Bond is back in fine form.
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 727
    Everytime I rewatch Skyfall I realise Casino Royale's superiority.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,022
    I’d argue the fantasy is still very much there, it’s just no longer presented in the jovial tone of earlier films. There’s still a good dosage of the benign bizarre (Komodo dragons at a casino, etc). I’m grateful that the Craig era attempted to find its own groove and play with that, and I would hope whoever gets the role next EON changes things up again, whether that means going back to the tone of certain era or going for something unlike any of the 25 previous films.
  • Posts: 6,677
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I definitely see a strong return of element of fantasy in SF, it's one of the film's greatest pleasures.

    Indeed it is. I'd call it exotic, though, not fantasy per se.
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,167
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I definitely see a strong return of element of fantasy in SF.

    Yes, of course there will always be elements of fantasy. Bond surviving the fall after he gets shot, for one.

    Regarding NTTD, I've been following production closely. I already knew what was going to be in the trailer, before it went online, because trailers have become highlight reels: several clips from the Matera-chase including the bike stunt, the bridge jump, the exploding boat, the car flipping over from the chase they shot in Scotland. Those are the money shots.

    In CR Bond crashes trough a construction site using a New Holland wheel loader, in QoS there's the old plane, a bike, a car, a speedboat, in SF the CAT on top of a moving train, in SP the snowplane on the ground.... but in NTTD Bond is just driving a couple of cars and a bike.

    No outlandish vehicles here, no new crazy gadgets. We get a visit to Q's apartment and learn that a retired Bond has more woman issues than seen before.

    It looks more grounded in reality than the previous four, which is fine I guess, as long as there's a compelling well-written story where he comes out on top in the end.
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,279
    SF was better than CR. As for being close to Fleming, I wish CR was closer than it actually turned out.

    Disagree 100%. I don't even rate SF has high as QoS anymore. CR has stood the test of time. SF has not (IMO).

    Years from now CR will be fondly remembered as a classic Bond film, in every sense of the word - like OHMSS or FRWL.

    It has Arnold's best score (sounding more like John Barry than John Barry himself), and relies heavily on the Fleming novel.

    SF in years from now could well end up being lumped alongside that garbage SP, both Mendes films and both with the worst Bond scores of all time (Newman should be ashamed of himself). I can see it being like those Brosnan films, all too generic, not very memorable, and trying to distinguish one between the other, where it all blurrs into one.

    I only hope NTTD doesn't get tossed aside and ends up belonging in that indistinguishable generic Brosnan-style canon too (the current signs says it could well be).
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I definitely see a strong return of element of fantasy in SF.

    Yes, of course there will always be elements of fantasy. Bond surviving the fall after he gets shot, for one.

    Regarding NTTD, I've been following production closely. I already knew what was going to be in the trailer, before it went online, because trailers have become highlight reels: several clips from the Matera-chase including the bike stunt, the bridge jump, the exploding boat, the car flipping over from the chase they shot in Scotland. Those are the money shots.

    In CR Bond crashes trough a construction site using a New Holland wheel loader, in QoS there's the old plane, a bike, a car, a speedboat, in SF the CAT on top of a moving train, in SP the snowplane on the ground.... but in NTTD Bond is just driving a couple of cars and a bike.

    No outlandish vehicles here, no new crazy gadgets. We get a visit to Q's apartment and learn that a retired Bond has more woman issues than seen before.

    It looks more grounded in reality than the previous four, which is fine I guess, as long as there's a compelling well-written story where he comes out on top in the end.

    You missed the shot of the dudes in Hazmat suits doing whatever the hell they’re doing in what looks like a throwback villain’s lair then?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,022
    SF was better than CR. As for being close to Fleming, I wish CR was closer than it actually turned out.

    Years from now CR will be fondly remembered as a classic Bond film, in every sense of the word - like OHMSS or FRWL.

    I think it already is.
    It has Arnold's best score (sounding more like John Barry than John Barry himself)

    I wish that were true.
    SF in years from now could well end up being lumped alongside that garbage SP, both Mendes films and both with the worst Bond scores of all time (Newman should be ashamed of himself). I can see it being like those Brosnan films, all too generic, not very memorable, and trying to distinguish one between the other, where it all blurrs into one.

    I wouldn’t bet on it. As for Newman, he has no reason to feel ashamed, as SF was a heavily acclaimed score, at least by those who don’t think David Arnold is some John Barry heir apparent and would dismiss any other good composer just because they aren’t Arnold. If they drag Newman’s score for SF through the mud despite how good that was, then I don’t think anyone but Arnold will please them.
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