"Snowflake generation" myth or reality

edited September 2017 in General Discussion Posts: 3,557
There is no proper research on this so we tend to pick and choose examples that fit our ideas. I find the argument in this video pretty logical and compelling.



We all have our own examples so let me start with this one, a friend who is a teacher was told not to mark using red pen as the red would be seen as too agresive/confrontational. It sounds like a small thing but it fits in perfectly with the patterns of a culture that goes out of its way not to upset/offend anyone and, therefore, does not teach people how to deal with such situations when they exist.

Comments

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,232
    As a part of the wretched generation, this is definitely a thing. Universities are now forced into having "safe spaces" where those too weak to handle the rigors of life can go to cry in peace without actually learning from their experiences in the real world that will teach them how to deal with the flaws that exist in it and its people. It's these kids that get those same universities to censor language on campus so that nobody is ever offended by anything. For example, on one of these campuses you can no longer say that a test was "lame" because some people in your class may be handicapped and that's rude, just like you can't say that you had a "crazy" weekend as that term is offensive to those with mental health issues. I wish I was kidding, but this is actually happening in the states.

    Personally I'm offended that all these "snowflakes" are so easily offended. The greatest karma will be when they get out into the world, find that nobody gives a damn if they're offended and refuse to cater to their pitiful mewling, showing them that not all problems are solved by outrage and childish whining. Some of the kids I went to school with are simply not aware of how the world actually works, and the rest were too busy diddling away on their phones to care about anything else. I'm not hopeful for the effect they'll have on the world.

    These people will never get any respect from me, as it's clear that they are seldom acting from a positive place. There's a lot of apologists out there now for the censorship police masquerading as the social justice warriors, but like those fools these snowflakes are intensely invested in complaining about basically anything, no matter how illogical it may be at the time. Restricting language when it comes to truly offensive words is fine, but when you start to attack people for using completely harmless and regular words while making up some lame-brain excuse, problems will start to form. This only continues when you rally for safe spaces simply because you want a place to go where only people you agree with can enter, making you unprepared to be engaged with things you are uncomfortable with and disagree with. Their actions will only make them vastly unable to function in everyday life, especially when someone who doesn't hold their exact beliefs (a good 2/3 of the population at least) greet them. And because these kids already act infantile (again, their phone addictions are cancerous to their ability to function) they shouldn't risk being even more immature through other means.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited September 2017 Posts: 2,457
    @patb @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 You're a little off the mark. I teach in an institution of higher learning, and what you describe here is not quite a match with reality.

    1. Yes, there are school districts out there directing teachers not to use red pen for marking up papers. This is because research (particularly in terms of educational psychology) has suggested there are some negative effects to the red pens. If you read the research, it's pretty compelling. So it's not a matter of "not offending." I have encountered a number of situations where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't. This is increasingly true in a society where red is just that: a warning, a signal of danger. There is a reason this website contains no red text. It is all black, blue, some aqua. These are "inviting" colors. Red is not. But today, the red ink issue is mostly for elementary schools. In colleges, now, we have moved away from grading by hand, anyway. It's all done online, with electronic text.

    2. Safe Spaces are NOT places to go cry. In FACT, there are two different definitions of the "safe space." Read here: http://harvardpolitics.com/online/what-is-a-safe-space/

    One form, believe it or not, as referenced in the linked article, occurs in a classroom or assembly where you can speak your mind without fear of retribution. These are "academic safe spaces." So there will be some lectures on campus in which students are told "this is a safe space," meaning they can ask questions and make comments regarding controversial issues; and the comments come from all directions. I have participated in these types of sessions and the level of debate and argument can be be heated -- but students are "safe" from being called out by faculty or administration for their views. The other form of "safe space" originated where students could go to remove themselves from what they deemed as distressful situations. Initially, this was designed to help female students, gays, minorities, who felt some sting of discrimination to get away from that for a moment--an emotional time out. The media has made a little more of this type of "safe space" than it usually (or traditionally) is.

    But @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 is also missing an important piece here. In the 21st century, colleges are based on economic models. Right-wing approaches to "the bottom line" and a lowering of integrity, for the sake of profit (see University of Phoenix) have forced colleges to treat students like "customers." And as we all know, you don't want to offend or upset your customers. If you want colleges to return to academic rigor and integrity, get the bean counters out of the way.

    Interestingly, the only "snowflake"-like behavior I am seeing these days is from those getting "offended" by the kneeling of NFL players.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    edited September 2017 Posts: 28,232
    TripAces wrote: »
    @patb @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 You're a little off the mark. I teach in an institution of higher learning, and what you describe here is not quite a match with reality.

    1. Yes, there are school districts out there directing teachers not to use red pen for marking up papers. This is because research (particularly in terms of educational psychology) has suggested there are some negative effects to the red pens. If you read the research, it's pretty compelling. So it's not a matter of "not offending." I have encountered a number of situations where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't. This is increasingly true in a society where red is just that: a warning, a signal of danger. There is a reason this website contains no red text. It is all black, blue, some aqua. These are "inviting" colors. Red is not. But today, the red ink issue is mostly for elementary schools. In colleges, now, we have moved away from grading by hand, anyway. It's all done online, with electronic text.

    I'm sorry, but this gave me a chuckle. As a writer I went through the rigors of heavy draft work and constant work shopping with peers and my mentors in college, often seeing the mighty ink of the red pen and never felt discouraged or that I was being attacked. Comments are comments, no matter what one cloaks them in, and I find the concern over the red ink to be another sign that we really have lost the plot.

    I hope that in painting my sentence this way, I don't come off as combative toward my fellow members and risk a ban on the forum, but this is seriously bonkers. Whatever did past generations do when they got their tests back from their teachers with red slashes all through it? They somehow made it out of high school and college with their emotions in check, not susceptible to the dangers and trauma of the red pen, but all of a sudden this is something we have to protect current generations from? As with most things, kids of today should be able to stomach what tougher and in some ways smarter generations had faced before them, including the color in which their graded comments come in which is about the most innocuous thing I could imagine. And that's not even to comment on how little kids seem to care about what grades they get period, but that's for another time.
    TripAces wrote: »
    2. Safe Spaces are NOT places to go cry. In FACT, there are two different definitions of the "safe space." Read here: http://harvardpolitics.com/online/what-is-a-safe-space/

    One form, believe it or not, as referenced in the linked article, occurs in a classroom or assembly where you can speak your mind without fear of retribution. These are "academic safe spaces." So there will be some lectures on campus in which students are told "this is a safe space," meaning they can ask questions and make comments regarding controversial issues; and the comments come from all directions. I have participated in these types of sessions and the level of debate and argument can be be heated -- but students are "safe" from being called out by faculty or administration for their views. The other form of "safe space" originated where students could go to remove themselves from what they deemed as distressful situations. Initially, this was designed to help female students, gays, minorities, who felt some sting of discrimination to get away from that for a moment--an emotional time out. The media has made a little more of this type of "safe space" than it usually (or traditionally) is.

    I'm happy to see that these "safe spaces" (the name alone almost invites ridicule, you must admit) sometimes meet what should be their proper use, but this vision for them isn't usually what I see. Usually a group get upset and outraged over a very simple and innocuous thing, and then they want a place to go where they can whine about it instead of actually talking with the person who they think offended them like an adult would. By taking the outraged person and sheltering them from the person who "triggered" them, I don't see what that exactly solves in the grand scheme, as nothing is being done to mitigate things and you're just leaving both sides flustered. The groups I see getting outraged aren't going to split the atom, so it could be an issue of maturity and nothing else where they just need to grow up, but for those that are reasonably outraged about something that isn't trivial these spaces should be used to bring the parties with issues together where they can privately solve their problem, either alone or with a small group to help them build a bridge. That's what they should be in the end, places to help everyone and not just those who need bandaids for every time they heart a dirty joke.

    Just to reiterate that this isn't what I commonly see, though I would love to think that the dream scenario of free and debate friendly discussions are going on everywhere. I'm happy to be out of the arena of higher learning, so at the moment I can't comment on exactly what is going on in my neck of the woods, but I've seen my fair share of imbecilic outrage and how it festers when not properly dealt with. We should also note that those getting outraged are kids whose brains aren't even developed yet and who have a tendency to live their lives on devices that've become permanently attached to their hands. Are they lost causes? Either way I struggle to find sympathy to donate to their plight.
    TripAces wrote: »
    But @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 is also missing an important piece here. In the 21st century, colleges are based on economic models. Right-wing approaches to "the bottom line" and a lowering of integrity, for the sake of profit (see University of Phoenix) have forced colleges to treat students like "customers." And as we all know, you don't want to offend or upset your customers. If you want colleges to return to academic rigor and integrity, get the bean counters out of the way.

    As a recently graduated individual who feels the glorious weight of student debt on his shoulders, I'd say I have earned the proper context to understand the very simple equation where lots of kids equals lots of money to make. There's a definite issue with how universities treat students and how they use their funds, but this issue isn't really on the forefront of this snowflake concern I see brewing, or why colleges are now so afraid to step on toes.

    Universities would take money regardless, and I don't sense that they feel invested in making their campuses thought controlled censorship havens to keep the students happy so that they don't transfer elsewhere. If anything the administrators who bend at the knee for the outraged, make certain language off limits and who treat the snowflakes like they are royalty with more reasonable concerns than anyone else in the student body should be seen as enemy number 1. Who wants to go to a university where you can't even use the words "lame" or "crazy" without getting reprimands and looks from people for crossing the line?

    Because of this I think that universities are in danger of making the students on campus afraid to say or do anything at any time lest they offend someone and get shouted out for their innocuous opinion, a culture that the universities could unconsciously be catering to with their behavior. And in trying to make everyone happy through this censorship and outrage pandering, the administrators may ironically make more students feel extremely unwelcome and unhappy as a result, leading to an outcome they wanted to do anything to avoid.
  • Posts: 3,557
    "where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't.

    I think this rather comfirms my suspicions: that institutions change their behavoir in order to avoid confrontation rather than deal with the root issues.
    If students cant see beyond the red pen and read the text ., whose issue is that to solve?

    It's clearly the students. What will they do on their first day at work when they see their boss or colleagues using a red pen? A central role of schools colleges , universities etc is to prepare students for life "in the real World", not pander to their sensitivities.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,457
    patb wrote: »
    "where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't.

    I think this rather comfirms my suspicions: that institutions change their behavoir in order to avoid confrontation rather than deal with the root issues.
    If students cant see beyond the red pen and read the text ., whose issue is that to solve?

    It's clearly the students. What will they do on their first day at work when they see their boss or colleagues using a red pen? A central role of schools colleges , universities etc is to prepare students for life "in the real World", not pander to their sensitivities.

    As I mentioned above, I would be more concerned about a boss or colleague marking things up with a pen. It's the 21st century.

    Both of you are likely "old school" like me. But you have to remember that younger generations have different experiences with signs, symbols, and colors.

    For example, when I was in college a THONG was a sandal, not underwear. Over time, that has changed. Now, thong means something else, and I will get a funny look if I say in public that I need a new pair of thongs. So the use of red pen marking has nothing to do with hurt feelings and everything to do with how the color has different connotations. I agree that it is silly, in most instances. But again: it is NOT widespread, and it is not an issue at all on college campuses.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 650
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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,232
    patb wrote: »
    "where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't.

    I think this rather comfirms my suspicions: that institutions change their behavoir in order to avoid confrontation rather than deal with the root issues.
    If students cant see beyond the red pen and read the text ., whose issue is that to solve?

    It's clearly the students. What will they do on their first day at work when they see their boss or colleagues using a red pen? A central role of schools colleges , universities etc is to prepare students for life "in the real World", not pander to their sensitivities.

    @patb, in most issues of this kind, we agree again. The pandering to sensitivities that the above can be seen as is an extension of the safe spaces too, where instead of preparing kids for being disagreed with, they can sometimes shelter them from it.
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't.

    I think this rather comfirms my suspicions: that institutions change their behavoir in order to avoid confrontation rather than deal with the root issues.
    If students cant see beyond the red pen and read the text ., whose issue is that to solve?

    It's clearly the students. What will they do on their first day at work when they see their boss or colleagues using a red pen? A central role of schools colleges , universities etc is to prepare students for life "in the real World", not pander to their sensitivities.

    As I mentioned above, I would be more concerned about a boss or colleague marking things up with a pen. It's the 21st century.

    Both of you are likely "old school" like me. But you have to remember that younger generations have different experiences with signs, symbols, and colors.

    For example, when I was in college a THONG was a sandal, not underwear. Over time, that has changed. Now, thong means something else, and I will get a funny look if I say in public that I need a new pair of thongs. So the use of red pen marking has nothing to do with hurt feelings and everything to do with how the color has different connotations. I agree that it is silly, in most instances. But again: it is NOT widespread, and it is not an issue at all on college campuses.

    @TripAces, I'm definitely old school, but sadly I'm an old schooler in a young schooler body. As a 23 year old I'm one of those younger generation kids you cite who supposedly have different experiences with signs, symbols and colors, and yet I made I through college without the red pen of doom causing me to drop out.

    There is of course a science to color and how it's used (as you say, there is a reason why STOP signs are red because those longer wavelengths reach us more immediately and from farther than other colors), but to take this argument to red pens on term papers and essays just seems silly to me. You say that teachers are being advised to drop red pens because the comments they write can be interpreted as combative, but where does this really come from? I doubt schools have kids talking with administrators, whining that the red ink makes them uncomfortable or that they can't bring themselves to read writing from teachers that is in that color. If they are, then, like all snowflakes, they really need to grow up and realize that not everything in life can be molded to form their distorted expectation of "reality." When other kids can get through it no problem and not even worry about what color their teacher's comments are in, the minority group shouldn't have the ironical red carpet rolled out for their particular brand of outrage.

    If this decision is simply one of the institutions, then how can it not be seen as them actively trying to avoid offending kids? If the whole decision to toss red pens is predicated on the concern that teachers' writing could interpreted as combative and harsh in the eyes of the students, the rules are being changed for the students and the offense they could take. There is no other way to see it, from the data you've given me. The only question that remains is if institutions are forcing this on teachers without kids complaining about the red ink, in which case that's an overreaction and a sign of the delusional times we're in where we must always be prepared to apologize to anyone we so much as prod with our words or actions, and if it is the kids and their parents pushing for this, see my snowflake comment above.

    I just don't see why this kind of thing keeps happening, why all these ways of living and functioning have to be altered and why at this specific time in our culture? Kids from just ten years ago got through life just the way we are now, with issues not too dissimilar from what people always face; there's always been red pens in use in schools, people have always had separate opinions from each other that cause debate and campuses can sometimes be hot bedded places for conflict and disagreement (look at the Vietnam era war protests for an example). But it's only now, in this particular age of the snowflake generation that criticism written in red is now deemed to difficult for kids to emotionally overcome, where opinions are so barbed and life-altering for kids that we must shelter them from opposing views to rescue them from instability and harm and where colleges must now bend over backwards to serve a minority over the majority who are only heard the loudest because they spend most of their days crying in a corner requesting more than everyone else, other kids (like myself) who somehow find a way to debate opinions, red comments in red and face the real world's prejudices without self-harming with a sharpened blade in the shower.

    I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for this kind of thing, or the kids that request the world be warped to fit their expectations and what makes them "safer," which is just another word for the privilege they expect everywhere they go. This kind of pandering doesn't prepare them for the world, in any sense, and should be discouraged. When I was little and I was walking around my neighborhood, if I fell while tripping on a piece of risen sidewalk and gashed my knee, I'd put a band-aid on it and get on with my day. I wouldn't go door to door and whine about it to the neighbors or head to the mayor's house to demand that the sidewalk be removed at that very moment for my special needs. The real takeaway would be that maybe I should've looked where I was going, and shouldn't expect everyone to cater to me and my situation as if I was royalty.

    There is a real inability in kids these days to function normally without special privileges or conditions being afforded to them, and that is going to falsely teach them that they can get that everywhere in life. So when they go to work as an adult and get offended by someone's joke that playfully picks on a co-worker's male pattern baldness, do they really expect to be listened to when they tell the boss how offended they are, about how their co-worker should be fired for his devastating words or how the whole office should chip in a chunk of their week's salary to buy the emotionally distraught bald man a nice wig? Of course not, because most people have a sense of humor and don't take life so goddamn seriously.

    These outrage prone fools shouldn't be bent over backwards for, because they are nothing but a vocal minority who don't represent how the majority of the sane population think and feel. Most kids don't give a damn if their teacher uses a red, blue or black pen on their tests, because they are able to read nothing more into the comments than what the words express (almost like an actual adult!). Most kids are able to talk to one another without one of the parties crying for a safe space to run to when their views don't exactly align with everyone in the discussion, and on the whole most kids don't take things this seriously, where every single word someone says has to be analyzed for its potent and harmful consequence, lest even one person be offended by a random comment or joke that they wouldn't be able to understand or appreciate anyway, because that would require an actual sense of humor and a stick not being lodged firmly up their arse.

    Long way of saying, kids need to grow the hell up and be thankful they live in the time they do, when generations before them had to drop out of school at age 14 to work for the family or head to war at 17, back in a time when people sucked it up and didn't expect the world to cater to their every trivial concern and misplaced bit of outrage. The only privilege they deserve is the one already born to them, to live in an altogether more progressive and agreeable time than we've ever known. But of course that's never enough for the minds who have trained themselves to need something to complain about every day, lest they go unnoticed by those around them for even a minute, kids who face all they face without being insufferable twats about it.
  • Gonna play devils advocate here (partly because I find the constant moaning about "PC gone mad!!!!" almost as annoying as the instances of genuine pandering/overreacting to stuff) and ask is this actually an issue or are people just generalising? Generation is a broad term and speaking from a British perspective, kids I've don't really seem any different to when I was growing up. I've got younger family members on facebook who I often see ripping into their mates or sharing jokes and pictures and videos that some might say are in poor taste. To me it just seems to be a vocal minority of certain college/uni students on certain parts of the internet and certain social media pages. Apart from that I don't get the impression that anything has really changed.

    And the babying going on at schools etc, the kids don't make the rules do they. I doubt any of them give a shit about what colour pen their work is marked in. When I was in high school (didn't go to college or uni so can't comment there but my best mate did and from what he's told me most of his time there seemed to consist of drinking and having a laugh rather than campaigning against anything and everything) all I cared about was boxing, football, nintendo, eagerly waiting for the next Brosnan Bond, making an arse of myself trying to get girls I fancied and hanging out and partying with my friends. I really didn't care at all about stuff like what colour pen was used and things can't have changed that much, I doubt the current younger generation do either. Boys will be boys, kids are still kids. I just don't believe that believe that kids today can be that different.

    To me this just seems like a case of the people in charge making decisions based off the research mentioned while the kids themselves are much more likely to just be enjoying being kids than caring about this sort of stuff.

    There are people on the internet who will get offended over anything but I can't say I've ever encountered one of those people in real life. So I don't think it's fair to generalise a whole generation, especially when the source of most peoples complaints seems to come from the older generations who make the rules.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 5,897
    Good point @thelivingroyale. I find myself boiling up at the PC stuff I read, before I realise it's the media who are fanning the flames, causing the uncertainty, creating the debate. They sew the seeds and we all cry wolf as one.

    I once read a twitter rant by some lefty feminist who took offense to a comment which may have had a grain of sexism in it. When I tweeted (to her) 'Now, now dear, stop fussing, back in the kitchen with you' did she rant at me? Nah, she 'liked' it and tweeted a laughing face emoji.

    Didn't know what to read into that, other than the fact that maybe no one takes it all quite as seriously as we think.
  • Posts: 3,557
    I dont think the snowflake generation has been "demand lead" , it has been created somehow by the previous generation who have for some reason (as a trend) decided to wrap their kids up in cotton wool. And I'm not sure where this has originated from ?

    IF there is a snowflake generation, then they are victims.
  • Posts: 5,897
    patb wrote: »
    I dont think the snowflake generation has been "demand lead" , it has been created somehow by the previous generation who have for some reason (as a trend) decided to wrap their kids up in cotton wool. And I'm not sure where this has originated from ?

    IF there is a snowflake generation, then they are victims.

    That is the thrust of it.
  • patb wrote: »
    "where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't.

    I think this rather comfirms my suspicions: that institutions change their behavoir in order to avoid confrontation rather than deal with the root issues.
    If students cant see beyond the red pen and read the text ., whose issue is that to solve?

    It's clearly the students. What will they do on their first day at work when they see their boss or colleagues using a red pen? A central role of schools colleges , universities etc is to prepare students for life "in the real World", not pander to their sensitivities.

    @patb, in most issues of this kind, we agree again. The pandering to sensitivities that the above can be seen as is an extension of the safe spaces too, where instead of preparing kids for being disagreed with, they can sometimes shelter them from it.
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "where students did not actually read what I had written because the red ink made my comments seem combative--when they weren't.

    I think this rather comfirms my suspicions: that institutions change their behavoir in order to avoid confrontation rather than deal with the root issues.
    If students cant see beyond the red pen and read the text ., whose issue is that to solve?

    It's clearly the students. What will they do on their first day at work when they see their boss or colleagues using a red pen? A central role of schools colleges , universities etc is to prepare students for life "in the real World", not pander to their sensitivities.

    As I mentioned above, I would be more concerned about a boss or colleague marking things up with a pen. It's the 21st century.

    Both of you are likely "old school" like me. But you have to remember that younger generations have different experiences with signs, symbols, and colors.

    For example, when I was in college a THONG was a sandal, not underwear. Over time, that has changed. Now, thong means something else, and I will get a funny look if I say in public that I need a new pair of thongs. So the use of red pen marking has nothing to do with hurt feelings and everything to do with how the color has different connotations. I agree that it is silly, in most instances. But again: it is NOT widespread, and it is not an issue at all on college campuses.

    @TripAces, I'm definitely old school, but sadly I'm an old schooler in a young schooler body. As a 23 year old I'm one of those younger generation kids you cite who supposedly have different experiences with signs, symbols and colors, and yet I made I through college without the red pen of doom causing me to drop out.

    There is of course a science to color and how it's used (as you say, there is a reason why STOP signs are red because those longer wavelengths reach us more immediately and from farther than other colors), but to take this argument to red pens on term papers and essays just seems silly to me. You say that teachers are being advised to drop red pens because the comments they write can be interpreted as combative, but where does this really come from? I doubt schools have kids talking with administrators, whining that the red ink makes them uncomfortable or that they can't bring themselves to read writing from teachers that is in that color. If they are, then, like all snowflakes, they really need to grow up and realize that not everything in life can be molded to form their distorted expectation of "reality." When other kids can get through it no problem and not even worry about what color their teacher's comments are in, the minority group shouldn't have the ironical red carpet rolled out for their particular brand of outrage.

    If this decision is simply one of the institutions, then how can it not be seen as them actively trying to avoid offending kids? If the whole decision to toss red pens is predicated on the concern that teachers' writing could interpreted as combative and harsh in the eyes of the students, the rules are being changed for the students and the offense they could take. There is no other way to see it, from the data you've given me. The only question that remains is if institutions are forcing this on teachers without kids complaining about the red ink, in which case that's an overreaction and a sign of the delusional times we're in where we must always be prepared to apologize to anyone we so much as prod with our words or actions, and if it is the kids and their parents pushing for this, see my snowflake comment above.

    I just don't see why this kind of thing keeps happening, why all these ways of living and functioning have to be altered and why at this specific time in our culture? Kids from just ten years ago got through life just the way we are now, with issues not too dissimilar from what people always face; there's always been red pens in use in schools, people have always had separate opinions from each other that cause debate and campuses can sometimes be hot bedded places for conflict and disagreement (look at the Vietnam era war protests for an example). But it's only now, in this particular age of the snowflake generation that criticism written in red is now deemed to difficult for kids to emotionally overcome, where opinions are so barbed and life-altering for kids that we must shelter them from opposing views to rescue them from instability and harm and where colleges must now bend over backwards to serve a minority over the majority who are only heard the loudest because they spend most of their days crying in a corner requesting more than everyone else, other kids (like myself) who somehow find a way to debate opinions, red comments in red and face the real world's prejudices without self-harming with a sharpened blade in the shower.

    I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for this kind of thing, or the kids that request the world be warped to fit their expectations and what makes them "safer," which is just another word for the privilege they expect everywhere they go. This kind of pandering doesn't prepare them for the world, in any sense, and should be discouraged. When I was little and I was walking around my neighborhood, if I fell while tripping on a piece of risen sidewalk and gashed my knee, I'd put a band-aid on it and get on with my day. I wouldn't go door to door and whine about it to the neighbors or head to the mayor's house to demand that the sidewalk be removed at that very moment for my special needs. The real takeaway would be that maybe I should've looked where I was going, and shouldn't expect everyone to cater to me and my situation as if I was royalty.

    There is a real inability in kids these days to function normally without special privileges or conditions being afforded to them, and that is going to falsely teach them that they can get that everywhere in life. So when they go to work as an adult and get offended by someone's joke that playfully picks on a co-worker's male pattern baldness, do they really expect to be listened to when they tell the boss how offended they are, about how their co-worker should be fired for his devastating words or how the whole office should chip in a chunk of their week's salary to buy the emotionally distraught bald man a nice wig? Of course not, because most people have a sense of humor and don't take life so goddamn seriously.

    These outrage prone fools shouldn't be bent over backwards for, because they are nothing but a vocal minority who don't represent how the majority of the sane population think and feel. Most kids don't give a damn if their teacher uses a red, blue or black pen on their tests, because they are able to read nothing more into the comments than what the words express (almost like an actual adult!). Most kids are able to talk to one another without one of the parties crying for a safe space to run to when their views don't exactly align with everyone in the discussion, and on the whole most kids don't take things this seriously, where every single word someone says has to be analyzed for its potent and harmful consequence, lest even one person be offended by a random comment or joke that they wouldn't be able to understand or appreciate anyway, because that would require an actual sense of humor and a stick not being lodged firmly up their arse.

    Long way of saying, kids need to grow the hell up and be thankful they live in the time they do, when generations before them had to drop out of school at age 14 to work for the family or head to war at 17, back in a time when people sucked it up and didn't expect the world to cater to their every trivial concern and misplaced bit of outrage. The only privilege they deserve is the one already born to them, to live in an altogether more progressive and agreeable time than we've ever known. But of course that's never enough for the minds who have trained themselves to need something to complain about every day, lest they go unnoticed by those around them for even a minute, kids who face all they face without being insufferable twats about it.

    It's not very often that Brady and I are on one page, but on this topic I agree with him wholeheartedly. It's my firm belief that all of this pandering towards the pupils/students doesn't do them any good. Life is not a rose garden with eternal sunshine and they have to learn to deal with it. I'm certainly not for going back to the 50s/60 when teaching was way more authoritative and physically punishing ( when I started going to school in the 70s we all still knew pupils, which had been beaten by teachers when they had acted wrong in their eyes), but all in all school is not for entertainment or socializing and watching the permanently lowering level of "classic" knowledge and the ability to do your math - to a certain degree - in the head or on a sheet of paper with the current generations of students I don't think we are doing them any favors.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,675
    That bit about the red pen was new to me, and hilarious. I get reports sent back covered in red all the time and the thought never occurred to me that it was 'aggressive'.

    Some similar nonsense has trickled into my job though-- some make sense but other things are eyeball rolling.
    One example: when we search a vehicle for drugs or whatever we normally wear gloves, but now we're not allowed to wear black ones, because that 'looks intimidating'. WTF I also have a freaking gun on my belt; should I hide that while I'm at it??

    17403ebff128e6c04cd5d21a6f6ad290.jpg
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited September 2017 Posts: 2,457
    This is what I know of the "snowflake" debate. The term originated as disparaging to progressives and liberals, a word to throw at people who are too easily offended and upset by something someone else does.

    Interestingly, there are no bigger snowflakes I know than the people who like to call others snowflakes. The current nationwide temper tantrum over NFL players kneeling during the anthem is a perfect example. Talk about "snowflakes."

    As for the generational stuff...people need to be aware that today's tweens and teens have grown up in a digital world, one with technological advancement we did not have as recently as 30 years ago. Here things I did NOT have in high school:

    cell phone
    internet
    personal computer
    iPad / digital forms of music
    You Tube
    DVR (we didn't even have a VCR!!!!!)
    Cable TV
    On demand programming
    ebooks

    And that's a short list.

    While I agree that a lot of coddling is going on, I again beg the question: why is this??? It has nothing to do with teachers, school systems, or kids. Interestingly, the blame lies with the very entities who are in turn complaining about the problem. We live in an era where anything and everything we do can be magnified by the internet. We did not have this 30 years ago. (even 20 years ago). That changes EVERYTHING.

    Remember, students have cell phones IN CLASS! You know who allows that? Who screams for that? Who demands that? THE PARENTS!

  • Posts: 3,557
    I dont know why it is, I agree with your points, many of the parents in the street give our kids funny looks when they see them cycling with no helmet,

    our attitude to risk and offence has changed. We dont seem to be able to deal with either The internet is just a thing, we choose how to use it. I agree it is a factor but I struggle to see why
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,457
    @patb

    The digital world has changed everything. To take us back to Bond: Skyfall was all about that. :-)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,232
    Gonna play devils advocate here (partly because I find the constant moaning about "PC gone mad!!!!" almost as annoying as the instances of genuine pandering/overreacting to stuff) and ask is this actually an issue or are people just generalising? Generation is a broad term and speaking from a British perspective, kids I've don't really seem any different to when I was growing up. I've got younger family members on facebook who I often see ripping into their mates or sharing jokes and pictures and videos that some might say are in poor taste. To me it just seems to be a vocal minority of certain college/uni students on certain parts of the internet and certain social media pages. Apart from that I don't get the impression that anything has really changed.

    And the babying going on at schools etc, the kids don't make the rules do they. I doubt any of them give a shit about what colour pen their work is marked in. When I was in high school (didn't go to college or uni so can't comment there but my best mate did and from what he's told me most of his time there seemed to consist of drinking and having a laugh rather than campaigning against anything and everything) all I cared about was boxing, football, nintendo, eagerly waiting for the next Brosnan Bond, making an arse of myself trying to get girls I fancied and hanging out and partying with my friends. I really didn't care at all about stuff like what colour pen was used and things can't have changed that much, I doubt the current younger generation do either. Boys will be boys, kids are still kids. I just don't believe that believe that kids today can be that different.

    To me this just seems like a case of the people in charge making decisions based off the research mentioned while the kids themselves are much more likely to just be enjoying being kids than caring about this sort of stuff.

    There are people on the internet who will get offended over anything but I can't say I've ever encountered one of those people in real life. So I don't think it's fair to generalise a whole generation, especially when the source of most peoples complaints seems to come from the older generations who make the rules.

    @thelivingroyale, I didn't think it needed to be pointed out that generalizations are never a logical reality. But when one is speaking on an issue, it helps to speak of a group as a collective, as they are not individual offenders. This in turn can sometimes give the impression, when you say "a generation of snowflakes," that you are talking about everyone in that generation. Of course we're not, and I don't think we need to waste time battling that particular syntax.

    Your ultimate point, that the snowflake culture isn't as massive as perceived, is very right. I mentioned in my post above that these people seem to be (thankfully) a very loud minority whose trivial screams make it seem like there's a whole country of them that outnumber the true majority who are regular kids and just live their lives. As you mention, most kids when they read red ink don't give a damn, as they are thinking about getting canned at a frat party or taking a trip that weekend off campus with friends; they're kids and think like kids and don't get worked up over everything. I've got other issues with kids my age, like their addiction to technology, but as a recently graduated college kid I thankfully didn't run into a massive wave of snowflakes and most of the kids I saw actually understood the concept of a sense of humor; I had more issues dealing with some professors in that department, if you can believe it. I just hope that the experience is the same on most campuses, though I know it can't be the case across the board, especially those that are administratively run with a luny liberal bent that panders to the band-aid brigade of snowflakes.

    I think you're also right that sometimes administrators make rules that most kids don't agree with (again, see the red ink lunacy) just to appease a minority, or, if the kids don't care, a perceived minority they can't even prove to be there. This makes it seem like the rules are being made on behalf of the kids and perhaps at their request, when in reality it's just adults doing it who are acting in preparation to avoid any awkward apologies they might have to make down the line to the parents of the kids.

    "My Billy brought home his science test and was fine that he got a 70 out of 100, he said he needed to study more, but...well, did you need to write his grade in that dreadful red ink? He came home and was in tears, as if nothing would comfort him, you monster!"

    I refuse to think people are that insufferably meek, despite being a hardline cynic. If the perceived generation of snowflakes are as minor as we hope they are (and hope they only ever are), it's an easier problem to cure than it would be otherwise. These misguided kids come from a good place, as all politically correct rallies do: we should be nicer to each other, let all races in, equalize gender, and overall just treat people better no matter who they are. It just seems that the focus of these snowflakes and those in their cadre or class (the radical feminists, for example) use their voices to moan and groan about things that really aren't important in the grand scheme of things. If you are crying because someone disagrees with you and you can't take it, get over it and instead use your snowflake powers on your campus to petition for real change that would help people facing actual turmoil, racism or discomfort.

    So many of these people, like the radical feminists, bemoan western society for having what is actually a mythic gender pay gap, while women around the world (like in the Middle East) who don't know a fraction of their freedoms are suffering under true oppression, and not just the metaphorical or symbolic oppression of "the patriarchy" that western women of this kind seem to think are enemy number 1; it's actual oppression over there. If only these women could walk in the shoes of those who have actual problems worth complaining about, or even dying for, because they are facing the real concept of patriarchy with nothing to fight it with.

    All this to say that we, including the band-aid snowflake brigade, should be ensuring that what we are fighting for is relevant to someone's cause who needs the support. Why have an ego-driven tirade over a safe space when you can use that safe space to quell real tensions between people with a gender or racist bent, or work with others on campus you don't agree with to find commonality and raise money for local charities or projects that benefit a suffering population? You know, creating real unity and understanding? Anything else is a waste of time, and because most of this PC outrage is trivial and derived from people's lack of a sense of humor or common sense about how the world really works, they are fighting phantom problems instead of using their vocal chords to shout about something that matters and really impacts people. That should change, post-haste, as we could use their help.
    TripAces wrote: »
    This is what I know of the "snowflake" debate. The term originated as disparaging to progressives and liberals, a word to throw at people who are too easily offended and upset by something someone else does.

    Interestingly, there are no bigger snowflakes I know than the people who like to call others snowflakes. The current nationwide temper tantrum over NFL players kneeling during the anthem is a perfect example. Talk about "snowflakes."

    As for the generational stuff...people need to be aware that today's tweens and teens have grown up in a digital world, one with technological advancement we did not have as recently as 30 years ago. Here things I did NOT have in high school:

    cell phone
    internet
    personal computer
    iPad / digital forms of music
    You Tube
    DVR (we didn't even have a VCR!!!!!)
    Cable TV
    On demand programming
    ebooks

    And that's a short list.

    While I agree that a lot of coddling is going on, I again beg the question: why is this??? It has nothing to do with teachers, school systems, or kids. Interestingly, the blame lies with the very entities who are in turn complaining about the problem. We live in an era where anything and everything we do can be magnified by the internet. We did not have this 30 years ago. (even 20 years ago). That changes EVERYTHING.

    Remember, students have cell phones IN CLASS! You know who allows that? Who screams for that? Who demands that? THE PARENTS!

    @TripAces, you make a good point that those opposing snowflakes can often have their own snowflake moments. The NFL one is a good example, but when you're tuning into Fox News with their conservative "America the perfect and glorious" bent, you can't expect them to view the actions of the players as anything else. I agree that they're just as insufferable, however, and are suffering from the safe symptoms of overreaction and outrage as the snowflake brigade.

    I won't debate your experiences as an educator-they are yours-but I will debate the lenience with which you can sometimes treat teachers, school systems and kids with. While I see what you're saying about parents playing a part (in my high school days I saw kids trying to justify having their phone out in case they got a call from their guardians), I don't think the entire thing can be pinned on them. Technology is like everything else, a tool that is open to the discretion of the individual in the position to use it. So when I see kids texting in an expensive paid college class, that's on the kids and their discretion, their choice to use their phones, as we both know their parents didn't tell them to expect a call and it's the kid's mommy and daddy that are paying for the class they're choosing to text through (and who would be furious if they saw what their kid was doing). When I see kids on their phones over lunch or dinner, ignoring the person across from them or anyone else when they plow through the cafeteria with their eyes refusing to divert from the screen, I don't think their parents taught them that; again, it's up to the discretion of the kid and how they choose to be an insufferable child with the technology open to them.

    Parents are undoubtedly vital in who a child grows to be, I am an example of this because my actions reflect my parents, but kids are more than their genetic code and the influence of their environment. Sometimes they make their own decisions independent of everything else, and should be taken to task for it because they are on the cusp of adulthood and should be treated as...you know, adults! When they grow up and fail to pay rent, the landlord isn't going to sue their parents for not teaching them to pay rent, it was their decision not to apply themselves. When they get pulled over for speeding, the cop isn't going to give them a pass and ticket their parents for not teaching them to drive under the speed limit, it was their choice to pretend they were a Formula One racer. My point being, at some point kids need to be blamed for the decisions they and they alone make. Resting this entire issue on parents and just on the basis of some parents wanting their kids to have phones in class isn't serviceable, and is far too apologetic on behalf of kids who should be held responsible for their actions in other areas of their technology use.

    There is no excuse for the vast majority of the behavior these kids make, and you can rest assured their parents didn't pay for their kid's college to have them talk to a friend in another class during the lesson, nor did they teach or advise their kid to text while driving, glue their eyes to their phone while they walk into those around them with recklessness, or kill their literacy with constant uses of "ROFL" and "LMFAO." The kids did that, and must be held accountable for their decisions. Our parents are vital to who we grow to be, but at a certain point we leave the nest and take over; we make our own decisions and society will act accordingly and blame us and us alone for what we do while acting inside it. The way it should be.

    We see blame on all sides, as the actions of every group result in the bad system we have now. Parents who buy phones for their kids at too young an age, kids who don't know how to be responsible with that technology, teachers who don't have enough of a backbone to take the phones away when the kids aren't paying attention and administrators who don't support their teachers and who make thick-headed rules in the service of apology avoidance instead of solving real problems. All these actions come together to create a bad mix and nobody is free of blame, with the actions of each group dependent on their own discretion and ultimate failing. If a parent screws up, a kid will go on to screw up too, just as the poor discretion of a kid can put a teacher in a bad place and the pressure of all these conflicts make administrators buckle and bend over backwards to fix a problem with a solution that never gets to the heart of the issue.

    As always, it's human error.
  • Posts: 3,557
    Has anyone been watching "Educating Manchester " on Channel 4 in the UK? One thing that comes acrosss is the air of entitlement from the kids and the teachers seem to encourgae that. The kids seem to theink they are the equal of the teacher and the teachers seem happy to communicate with the kids on a 50/50 basis.

    Basic body language and manners, answering back etc (knocking on the door before entering, waiting to be asked before sitting down)

    What this does is give the kids a sense of entitlement that that have done nothing to earn, they seem to think they are the equal of adults. Becoming an adult is hard and at 15, you have not made it yet. Im not blaming just the teachers here, its obviously parenting plus a wider society that seems to accept this situation
  • Posts: 650
    Come on. Anyone who uses the phrase "kids these days..." had unwittingly turned into a boring old fart. People have been saying that since the dawn of civilisation I'm sure. Marcus Aurelius mentions words to that effect in Meditations.

    There are amazing young people out there. As there are with all generations.

    My wife works as a teacher in a school that doesn't 'mark' in the traditional sense at all. Not because of psychology, but because for kids aged 4-11 there are better ways to feedback.

    Bear with me...

    The teachers give instant verbal feedback and encourage the children to share their learning and findings discussing in groups - all the time. Anyone of us who has to work in a collaborative role at work will know that this is a more productive useful strategy.

    They also critique each other's work in front of the class. The advantage is that this teaches children various skills - team work, confidence, sharing ideas, learning from each other, presentation skills etc. Rather than working in isolation and having work marked at distance hours or days later when the mistakes have been made.


    I know it's a progressive approach. It's an outstanding state school with a very different approach to learning. They have visitors from all over Europe. The kids leave there with academic achievements but also a load of skills that prepare them for life.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 718
    patb wrote: »
    I dont think the snowflake generation has been "demand lead" , it has been created somehow by the previous generation who have for some reason (as a trend) decided to wrap their kids up in cotton wool.
    Speaking of cotton, you reminded me of the young black woman in Texas who recently became incensed at seeing raw cotton stalks at a crafts store, thinking that was racist.
    She said it herself--"A little sensitivity goes a long way. PLEASE REMOVE THIS "decor"." She's trying to tell a store what to do! Rather than go shop somewhere else or do it over the internet.

    While today's generation does have obstacles, I think it has it easier than the previous generation, and one result has been more of a focusing on themselves (and their cellphone screen)--yes, sensitivity and a sense that the world should be a certain way and that old ways should be torn down more quickly than they often do.

    As one person posted here on another thread, what happens if there's a war? I agree that probably won't happen, and I hope it doesn't. But if it did, would any of these sensitive privileged young people fight, defend their country? Or would they just surrender to the attacking force? Will they change their thinking as they get older and as they become leaders?

    On the other hand, today's young people may be more evolved in some ways than previous generations--hopefully that's the case.

    http://nypost.com/2017/09/18/woman-freaks-out-over-hobby-lobbys-raw-cotton-display/
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 15,625
    patb wrote: »
    I dont know why it is, I agree with your points, many of the parents in the street give our kids funny looks when they see them cycling with no helmet,
    We ride with no helmets all the time- we generally don't get funny looks around here, but if I did, I wouldn't give it a thought.

    Here's a list of stuff I say that's unacceptable:
    That's so lame.
    You're crazy.
    What a maroon.

    But I won't say:
    Get your cotton-picking hands off me.

    Snowflakes abound these days. Whether it be the PC idiots or the "You can't be intolerant of my intolerance!!!" morons.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Christmas Jonestown
    Posts: 28,757
    snowman-degree-engineer-WUMO-1052837.jpeg
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    Media portrayal's definitely a strong part of it. Plenty of kids these days aren't afraid to be PC.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Christmas Jonestown
    Posts: 28,757
    S8PiUiY.png
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