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  • Posts: 3,823
    No, you have it wrong, the Muslim community is the victim. We are the perpetraitors with our lack of understanding.
  • Posts: 10,642
    Yes, I keep forgetting the west with all its freedoms and rights, are the bad guys.
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    Posts: 18,748
    Of course..we deserve to be beheaded,knifed and mown down by cars and lorries...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I honestly don't give two hoots about Islam either way. I'm neither against it nor for it. I feel the same way about all religion. If people want to practice it, that's their right.

    A crime is a crime though, and loss of innocent life is unacceptable to me. Innocent people shouldn't have to pay for other's crimes, anywhere in the world. Those who perpetrate such crimes should be the ones to pay. I find loss of life in Mosul or Aleppo on account of bombing campaigns deplorable and horrific as well by the way.

    The one thing I would highly suggest is a detanglement from wars in Middle Eastern (Islamic) countries. That is one more thing that feeds this cancer, and the sooner that excuse can be removed from the equation, one can more readily take the moral high ground in this fight against Radical Islamic (Salafist or Wahabi) Jihadism (which means 'struggle'). Most of this is perpetrated by the eternal Sunni vs. Shia conflict. If they want to destroy each other, let them. It's best not to get in the way. Especially in a post-Brexit world, it's imperative that the UK not waste money in these entanglements.

    Where there must be a zero tolerance policy is when citizens of the UK or other Western nations side with the jihadis and take up arms against their own citizens. If they are found guilty of that crime, they should be dealt the severest penalty under the law. Unfortunately, most of the perpetrators plan to die as part of their plan, and so apprehending them is difficult after the fact. If they are caught, there should be life imprisonment. Lock them up, and throw away the key.
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    Posts: 18,748
    Where there must be a zero tolerance policy is when citizens of the UK or other Western nations side with the jihadis and take up arms against their own citizens. If they are found guilty of that crime, they should be dealt the severest penalty under the law. Unfortunately, most of the perpetrators plan to die as part of their plan, and so apprehending them is difficult after the fact. If they are caught, there should be life imprisonment. Lock them up, and throw away the key.

    I wouldn't want us to waste tax payers money on keeping them in prison...its treason,and treason should mean the death penalty.

    It needs to come back for the crime of treason at least.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I wouldn't want us to waste tax payers money on keeping them in prison...its treason,and treason should mean the death penalty.

    It needs to come back for the crime of treason at least.
    You;'d be doing them a favour with that penalty (since their ambition is to die for their cause) and may only feed the cancer. My earlier point is it's best to incarcerate, because that's the last thing they want. They'd be more frightened of that potential penalty.
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    Posts: 18,748
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I wouldn't want us to waste tax payers money on keeping them in prison...its treason,and treason should mean the death penalty.

    It needs to come back for the crime of treason at least.
    You;'d be doing them a favour with that penalty (since their ambition is to die for their cause) and may only feed the cancer. My earlier point is it's best to incarcerate, because that's the last thing they want. They'd be more frightened of that potential penalty.

    Not if you execute them,strip their family of all assets,and deport them.

    Let them know that they will be ruining the lives of their family as well,their weak spot or Achilles Heel.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I wouldn't want us to waste tax payers money on keeping them in prison...its treason,and treason should mean the death penalty.

    It needs to come back for the crime of treason at least.
    You;'d be doing them a favour with that penalty (since their ambition is to die for their cause) and may only feed the cancer. My earlier point is it's best to incarcerate, because that's the last thing they want. They'd be more frightened of that potential penalty.

    Not if you execute them,strip their family of all assets,and deport them.

    Let them know that they will be ruining the lives of their family as well,their weak spot or Achilles Heel.
    There is a legal issue here, because one would have to prove collusion by family members. Certainly if that can be proven, I'm all for it, but where would one be deported to? These folks are normally UK citizens. Eventually, once we colonize outer space, that might be a solution. Or we could do a deal with the Russians and send them to Siberia.
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    Posts: 18,748
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I wouldn't want us to waste tax payers money on keeping them in prison...its treason,and treason should mean the death penalty.

    It needs to come back for the crime of treason at least.
    You;'d be doing them a favour with that penalty (since their ambition is to die for their cause) and may only feed the cancer. My earlier point is it's best to incarcerate, because that's the last thing they want. They'd be more frightened of that potential penalty.

    Not if you execute them,strip their family of all assets,and deport them.

    Let them know that they will be ruining the lives of their family as well,their weak spot or Achilles Heel.
    There is a legal issue here, because one would have to prove collusion by family members. Certainly if that can be proven, I'm all for it, but where would one be deported to? These folks are normally UK citizens. Eventually, once we colonize outer space, that might be a solution. Or we could do a deal with the Russians and send them to Siberia.

    Yes it is a bit of a conundrum....

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 5,346
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I wouldn't want us to waste tax payers money on keeping them in prison...its treason,and treason should mean the death penalty.

    It needs to come back for the crime of treason at least.
    You;'d be doing them a favour with that penalty (since their ambition is to die for their cause) and may only feed the cancer. My earlier point is it's best to incarcerate, because that's the last thing they want. They'd be more frightened of that potential penalty.

    Not if you execute them,strip their family of all assets,and deport them.

    Let them know that they will be ruining the lives of their family as well,their weak spot or Achilles Heel.
    There is a legal issue here, because one would have to prove collusion by family members. Certainly if that can be proven, I'm all for it, but where would one be deported to? These folks are normally UK citizens. Eventually, once we colonize outer space, that might be a solution. Or we could do a deal with the Russians and send them to Siberia.

    Yes it is a bit of a conundrum....

    Killing their family would lower our society to their standards. Everyone is accounteable for their own deeds, not that of their family members. And considering the fact that these extremist' guys are willing to offer children in their 'fight', no, I shouldn't call it fight, for for fighting you need two parties to engage, not one lunatic blowing himself up. Willing to offer their children in their delusional idiocy (sorry, can't find the proper words, should be far more derogatory) means they'd probably offer their family as well. No, the best way to discourage others is when they see these- er, creatures are incarcerated and society just keeps on going no matter what. That is a life long torture for them. They aim to disrupt and be remembered. Let them rot and be forgotten.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Your solution is rather one sided look at them terrorists and possible terrorists which by coincidence are all Muslim

    Very true - it's pure coincidence. Just a statistical blip. Are you Corbyn in disguise?
    patb wrote: »
    Western liberal democracies have shown remarkable levels of understanding and tolerance with their attitidudes to immigration. Every community apart from Islam has made a great effort to intergrate and, at the same time, add something new to a vibrant and varied culture.

    Very astute observation. If it's all due to us for not being tolerant of other cultures and allowing immigrants to integrate where are all the Chinese, Indian, West Indian and Polish suicide bombers?
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 943
    SaintMark wrote: »
    stag wrote: »
    @saintmark, I didn't forget about the root cause, I did not bring it up. Instead I chose to focus on how I think we could remove those who seek to harm us as a nation. I can only wonder if you have actually read any of my posts? Nowhere did I speak about building walls or closing borders?
    Good luck with your 're-education' programme. It's a lovely idea but one lost upon people who have already committed to violence.
    While ever we maintain the illusion that these terrorists are somehow victims of our society then we leave open the way to more and more attacks.

    Your solution is rather one sided look at them terrorists and possible terrorists which by coincidence are all Muslim, which is true currently, even if not all Muslim are terrorists, lets take no risks.

    Educate the christian folk about other religions and cultures instead of being nationalistic about being British, American, Dutch, German etc. We do not have a society that mashes together but need a society that can have various groups living together. Unless you go for complete camps in which you put all Muslims you have them living among you and by understanding you stand a better chance of people not choosing the fundamentalist highway then by alienating them in the media and on the street.

    I work with Muslims every day and like me they do the same job and have the same worries, paying the bills, football, raising kids and giving them a future. And I like them very well they seem to be very human.

    @SaintMark, I'd appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth and 'quoting' me for things I haven't said. I have already told you I am speaking about ALL terrorists, and cannot understand why you find this so difficult to compute (or is it you are just choosing to ignore?) I make no apologies nor retractions to my actual statements whereby I mooted the possibility of interning all terror suspects - again you choose how to interpret this in your own fashion - people who are known to pose a threat to us shouldn't be allowed to live among us.
    Will you explain to me why you think people who are known/suspected terrorists (those for whom a body of proof as to their activities exists)/supporters of terrorism and returning jihadists should be allowed to roam free to further their cause and mount attacks?

    Nowhere have I mentioned that Christians do not need to be educated about other religions, but you have to remember that this is a two way street. Why not 'educate' Muslims and other non Christian religions about Christianity instead (to turn your own quote) of being nationalistic about Arab states?
    Also what about teaching people to show respect for the laws and culture of the country in which they have chosen to settle? This is not restricted to Muslims, but everyone who comes to stay here.

    I think you are cherry picking. You only see what you want to see and deny everything else.

    Lastly, I'm glad that members of the Muslim community seem to be 'very human' to you. Until you pointed that out I'm guessing you thought everyone else presumed they weren't!

    8-| 8-|
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 943
    It really is an odd state of affairs, when people blame the victim . :(

    It's always easier to blame the victims than to address the root cause of the matter. Now don't get me wrong, there are victims on both sides here - by that I mean both sides of the law abiding peaceful community - but blame, especially when it alludes to certain religions or sections of society, is a word which dare not speak its name.

  • edited March 2017 Posts: 3,823
    The whole Sharia law issue needs to be sorted and the gov has been spineless in confrontiong this. Can anyone else name a cultural group or religion that has set up and run its own legal infrastructure that runs parrallel to and, for many, is superior to, the state's own legal system. This sends out a very clear message re the priorities within that group and the inability to simply respect and work within the legal framework that all other members of the population work within. This IMHO is especially significant within the UK where , although not perfect, our legal system is one of the oldest in the World and a template for many other countries.
    Again, its the religious and racial overtones that mean the the gov is weak. Can you imagine if all blue eye people or all red haired people decided to set up their own leagl system tomorrow. It would be regarded rightly as a joke and ridiculed. But Sharia law seems to be untouchable.
    Can you imagine the impact within the UK and Europe if every other religion decided to set up its own system of law? Its just bonkers but somehow, Islam seem to think that it is special.
    But perhaps its my fault, perhaps I need educating as to why a religion thinks its a requirement to run its own legal system.

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/mar/01/inside-britains-sharia-councils-hardline-and-anti-women-or-a-dignified-way-to-divorce

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/07/religion.world
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    edited April 2017 Posts: 18,748
    Here we go again :

    Stockholm incident: Lorry rams people - at least 3 dead,many injured.

    A lorry has driven into a store in the centre of the capital Stockholm, killing at least three people, Swedish media say.

    Shots have also reportedly been fired.

    Swedish police said a number of people were injured.

    The incident took place on Drottninggatan (Queen Street), one of the city's major pedestrian streets, just before 15:00 local time (14:00 GMT).

    Witnesses told local media they saw a truck driving into a department store window, and they have seen people on the ground.

    "There is total confusion, I do not know how many are injured, many people are totally shocked," one witness, Leif Arnmar, who was working in the department store, told Swedish national broadcaster SVT.

    There are also reports of a separate shooting incident in a second location about 20 minutes from the pedestrian shopping street where the crash took place.


    _95504840_mediaitem95504839.jpg

  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya “We are thrilled to delay B25”
    Posts: 2,539
    God if only I could guess what relegion was behind this
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    Posts: 18,748
    One 'man' arrested so far,maybe now up to 5 dead,and many injured :

    2a1428de4ffa789f9a62d0d8514eac0b378cd5fe8f25d3d5668e618c9d6d4529_3925806.jpg?20170407152811
  • Posts: 10,642
    Another victim of the London attack died
    Today. Then we get this horrible news of
    This latest attack.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    This may sound cold at a moment like this, but I have been giving some thought to whether driverless cars could help with stopping this kind of carnage in the future. I assume that there is some way the technology can eventually evolve to automatically stop a car/truck/lorry from careening off it's intended preset course and/or off the road using GPS. Even if it's not driverless, perhaps there is a way to activate a brake function if something like this happens.

    I also was just thinking yesterday about insisting that tech companies be made liable for mobile phone use in a moving car travelling above a certain speed, whether it be via text or actual calls not put into a blue tooth or hands free device. There is definitely a way with GPS to know if the phone is in a vehicle moving above a certain safe speed and activating a disabler.

    Just some thoughts, given this kind of nonsense is likely going to continue (arguably we are only at the early stages of these kinds of attacks, which will escalate).
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,022
    bondjames wrote: »
    This may sound cold at a moment like this, but I have been giving some thought to whether driverless cars could help with stopping this kind of carnage in the future. I assume that there is some way the technology can eventually evolve to automatically stop a car/truck/lorry from careening off it's intended preset course and/or off the road using GPS. Even if it's not driverless, perhaps there is a way to activate a brake function if something like this happens.

    I also was just thinking yesterday about insisting that tech companies be made liable for mobile phone use in a moving car travelling above a certain speed, whether it be via text or actual calls not put into a blue tooth or hands free device. There is definitely a way with GPS to know if the phone is in a vehicle moving above a certain safe speed and activating a disabler.

    Just some thoughts, given this kind of nonsense is likely going to continue (arguably we are only at the early stages of these kinds of attacks, which will escalate).

    Interesting thoughts on mobile phone use, would love to see that implemented. I think it's a bigger problem than many realise.
  • edited April 2017 Posts: 3,823
    The use of driverless cars rather than cars with drivers (and a tiny percentage of religious mad men) is possibly one of the best (or worst) examples I have seen of avoiding the root cause and expecting the 99.999 % of rest of the population to change their behavoir in an effort to deal with an effect of the cause.

    Perhaps we should ban cars completely? Perhaps underground trains should also be banned ? Perhaps public gatherings of 20 or more should be banned as they provide a target? Perhaps live gigs should be banned? Perhaps offensive cartoon should be banned? etc etc This is exactly the route that terrorists want us to go down down.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Being a car nut, driverless cars are one of the things I'm dreading the most about the future (along with the prevalence of electric vehicles, because I like the sound of an old fashioned combustion engine). Having said that, the technology that will be coming to cars shortly will enable them to be emergency overridden when necessary, and I think that might be a good thing.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Thunderfinger Wane Museum
    Posts: 33,406
    No cars will ever be driverless. Thre is just someone else driving it for you. The power to use it as a weapon is shifted.
  • Posts: 3,823
    Good point, just a shift in responsibility. ISIS hacking into network and causing 1000s of cars to cause mayhem?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    That's coming in the next Fast & the Furious, based on what I've seen from the trailers.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I'm intrigued as to why the Russian metro bombing went unmentioned in this thread when it had a higher body count than London and Stockholm combined?

    Is it only a proper terrorist attack when it's against America and Western Europe? Or is it that the Russians are perceived as 'dodgy' so it's not such a big deal?

    It would be interesting to have a handy map of countries we should show sympathy for, those we are ambivalent about and those we genuinely don't care about at all.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm intrigued as to why the Russian metro bombing went unmentioned in this thread when it had a higher body count than London and Stockholm combined?

    Is it only a proper terrorist attack when it's against America and Western Europe? Or is it that the Russians are perceived as 'dodgy' so it's not such a big deal?

    It would be interesting to have a handy map of countries we should show sympathy for, those we are ambivalent about and those we genuinely don't care about at all.
    An excellent point. If we were to also extend this courtesy to countries in the Middle East where innocents are killed by terrorism we'd have the most popular thread on this forum by default, with daily updates.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 16,781
    I assumed we were focusing primarily on countries in which members of this forum live.

    But @TheWizardOfIce makes a good point for sure.
  • barryt007barryt007 With Bond and M in Tokyo,having an interesting experience.
    Posts: 18,748
    I missed the bombing there tbh or i would have mentioned it...you didnt fancy posting it Wizard ?
  • Posts: 3,823
    Speaks volumes for the global scenario and perhaps how programmed/desensitiesed we are to these attacks that they can go unmentioned.
This discussion has been closed.