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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Gerard wrote: »
    Word of caution here : remember Jean Charles de Menezes ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

    Just saying, that's all.
    That was a terrible and tragic consequence of a rush to judgement and poor protocol when it comes to engaging suspects. I agree that this should never happen again. A complete disgrace to the Met. I can't imagine how horrifying his last minutes of life were.
  • Posts: 4,325
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Hmm You see a Christian God is first for me. Before anything.
    barryt007 wrote: »

    But this is a Christian country,i think sometimes our identity is so mixed up now that people forget that.
    tanaka123 wrote: »

    Yes, but their God isn't real :) There is only one God.

    I'm really hoping you guys are joking now.

    No, I'm a Christian, I believe in the one true God who gave his very own Son so that we can be reconciled to him. The Lord Jesus himself.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited March 2017 Posts: 16,446
    I don't WANT to go there in this thread, and I know I really shouldn't, but ... it's too strong to resist.

    Why do you believe in god? Have you met him? Or were you just told that some 2000 years ago he gave us his only son? And of course if people say that, it must be true, right? Have you read about god in that awkward book full of inconsistencies which is long overdue for revision? You know, that book full of misogynist propaganda, endorsing the cruellest forms of torture and child abuse in the name of love and peace... What makes you so sure yours is the only true god? Why isn't it Allah? Perhaps the god of the muslims, christians and jews is one and the same! But let's say they all worship a different god. Considering then that there are several large monotheist religions, only one god can, at best, be the one true god, and in that case the majority of all the people with faith are wrong, which means that statistically, the odds are very much against you.

    Who was the "lord Jesus" really? A delusional troublemaker? A loonatic? A soothing presence whom others posthumously called "the son of god"? Seriously, even if Jesus from Nazareth inspired people and spread messages of hope, what makes him of divine decent and not one of those weird homeless people who nowadays pray and preach in public and claim to be the voice of god? These people are called crazy, even by those who are still waiting for the return of their beloved prophet. Yet intuitively we can all sense that something is "off" with them; strange that jesus so neatly fits our criteria of sanity.

    If someone told you he heard voices in his head or saw the ghost of Elvis in his bath, you'd be on the phone with the nearest insane asylum. But a man who, as some age-old texts, poorly copied, poorly translated and most likely adjusted and "re-interpreted" to better fit the aims of some power-hungry Medieval pope, will have you believe, called himself the son of god and proclaimed that god spoke to him, you're willing to unconditionally and without the least bit of empirical evidence take him on his every quoted word?

    And even if god and Jesus were real, some cold bastards they are! Performing miracles but only 2000 years ago and never since. Allowing madness to reign supreme. Is Jesus ever planning to come back? A resurrection was ultimately promised; judging by the way things are going, I'd say the time is about right. And how is the holocaust supposed to fit the divine scheme? Or was god comfortably resting in his heavenly chair, moustache-twirling, while someone else was taking out the competition? Surely we can agree that the various churches have committed the most atrocious, heinous crimes in the name of god; why doesn't god step in? Even Justin Bieber is smart enough to attack newspapers which print damaging lies about him. Also, yes, churchES, as in Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, ... because despite only two key players and one book we still can't agree, not even remotely, about the ABC of the Holy Trinity and the meaning of Jesus' words--ain't that confusing! If I as a teacher made my facts that blurry and my statements that ambiguous, they'd fire me on the spot and they would be right for doing so too!

    In a universe which we are coming ever closer to understanding so well through the merits of science and its pure methods, how does a god still fit the picture? Please don't tell me you accept the Earth as being but a mere 6000 years old and evolution as "just" a theory and by no means better than the idea that god dropped us here without any form of evolution and of course surrounded by dinosaurs... :-S
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 943
    @DarthDimi, I actually met God once. At least that's who he said he was. He was sectioned shortly afterwards and, as far as I know, is still in the asylum.

    Re internment, who said all Muslims should be interred? Not me. Just to clarify I said that all those who had been positively identified as posing a risk to the state, be that by planning/providing logistical support/or otherwise encouraging or participating in terrorism should be interred after the evidence has been presented to a panel of judges and those judges rule in favour of the security services request.

    And yes, I do mean indefinite imprisonment. As it stands we cannot monitor anything approaching the numbers involved, let alone all the returning Syrian jihadists. Do I care about their human rights? When it involves protecting the civilian population from credible threats, threats which are borne out by hard evidence, I most certainly do not.
    I think one of the main things we must do is decide if we are actually at war with ISIS and other extremists.
  • barryt007barryt007 Getting counselling by Sir Roger over Kara Milovy
    Posts: 17,962
    patb wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    For me,i don't see why we should sustain them and pay for their prison comforts.

    TREACHERY = DEATH PENALTY.

    Not that usefull for suicide bombers. These guys want to die. The guy last week must have had full knowledge that he would have been shot. He is doing God's work and will be rewarded. Death is not a penatly and use of the phrase "death penalty" is a reminder of how far our mainstream values are from extreme Islam as well as an oxymoron. It should be death reward.

    All armed forces think that God is on their side. (http://www.army.mod.uk/chaplains/chaplains.aspx) And this, for me, is the crux of the issue. I cant work out how anyone can criticize the irrationality of a religious extremist whilst they worship their own God. It's two sides of the same coin.

    Then we should add the fact that their entire family will be stripped of their assets and deported..make them realise they are dooming their entire clan.

    And it means we can clear the excess filth of the streets without EU interruption.
  • Posts: 7,125
    I must admit that I find some of the sentiments in this thread sailing very close to fascism, internment camps, livelong imprisonment, no proper sentencing by a judge based upon any legal proof, punishing the families of the culprit because like capital punishment it works its magic.
    We seem to be a phase of blind hatred towards anything Islamic, forgetting that many of them are victims as well. Staring blindly at our christian identity which is a bloody legacy to begin with.

    But if these draconian solutions will be accepted in the UK you do not have to wonder why your standing in the world will be lees favorable by the big economic forces who will not accept them As May already discovered that a economic treaty with India will involve far more working permits for Indians than ever before.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 943
    @SaintMark I'm unsure what you don't understand when I speak about 'due process'.
    Also, I don't think anyone here has demonstrated 'blind hatred' towards Muslims. From my own perspective, hatred towards terrorists, yes. But 'blind hatred' towards Muslims? No.

    If you don't like what you read, then please offer us a solution! Because, until we get this by the throat, we will continue to see more attacks.
  • Posts: 10,503
    One thing I really want to see is less publicity for the terrorist ! Stop putting their faces on
    Page after page of news print and television news programmes.
  • Posts: 7,125
    One thing I really want to see is less publicity for the terrorist ! Stop putting their faces on
    Page after page of news print and television news programmes.

    Tell it to Murdoch and his ilk they sell shed loads of papers because of this perceived and overexposed threat. He is doing the guys in charge of ISIS a big favor but then again I am quite sure some of friends make big money from war as well.

  • Posts: 7,125
    stag wrote: »
    @SaintMark I'm unsure what you don't understand when I speak about 'due process'.
    Also, I don't think anyone here has demonstrated 'blind hatred' towards Muslims. From my own perspective, hatred towards terrorists, yes. But 'blind hatred' towards Muslims? No.

    If you don't like what you read, then please offer us a solution! Because, until we get this by the throat, we will continue to see more attacks.

    Blind hatred because you forget to look at why we are targeted by religious conservatives, I doubt we will be less targeted when the news report less about it.

    Religious conservatives we got on both sides and they tend to want is best for people because their ancient book tells them how the world should work.

    Dear Stag the world will not change because you build a wall or close the borders, you will have to change the perception of people about their own society and that is difficult because we tend to blame others for our own shortcomings. There was a time we blamed the Jews for about everything, these days it is more the Arabs and a a little Jew thrown in for good measure. Blaming generally does not solve any progress. The discussion should be what people want form their own society and I bet you'll discover a lot of complaining about available housing, schooling, work and family. Everything to do with a certainty that has disappeared with the globalization of our general society.

    I guess if the government wants to stop people choosing for violence they should offer something else than untruths and dividing society and the various cultures. Bigots will always be among us but we should re-educate and listen to the people, there may be less profit in it but it would be humane.

  • barryt007barryt007 Getting counselling by Sir Roger over Kara Milovy
    Posts: 17,962
    @saintmark you are being seriously rose-tinted with your views here.
    This is our society and ,if they are accepted,these people need to accept our rules and traditions.
    No Burkhas for starters.
    These people are blatantly killing our own people in our own cities,and all we do is say "we will not be moved".

    Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire and it is approaching fast when they will push certain countries too far.

    Italy/Holland/France/Belgium/Germany/UK/USA /Canada/Australia and on and on ,the people of these countries are getting fed up ,enough is enough...something will have to give,and whatever god they serve better help these 'terrorists' when it does ,because once one country starts ,the rest will follow.
  • Posts: 3,822
    "these days it is more the Arabs"

    The latest guy was clearly of Afro-Carribbean descent and went to school in Tunbridge Wells. Nothing to do with Arabs. This is not about race but liberals are determined to add a racial ellement to the discussion with the implied criticism of racism aimed at those who object to some of the values held witin Islam.
  • Posts: 7,125
    patb wrote: »
    "these days it is more the Arabs"

    The latest guy was clearly of Afro-Carribbean descent and went to school in Tunbridge Wells. Nothing to do with Arabs. This is not about race but liberals are determined to add a racial ellement to the discussion with the implied criticism of racism aimed at those who object to some of the values held witin Islam.

    It is the liberals all over again, I know. The latest guy was only enamored by some of the sh&t ISIS was selling and was by no means a faithful believer either. He was more known as a violent criminal. The guy in France was an addict and not a faithful fellow either. They both carried their own moronic reasoning for doing what they did because to others it will undoubtedly not make any sense.

    It is your society and you'll fight fire with fire, does that mean you will be bombing and terrorizing some yourself?- The Dutch just had their election and most people did not go for cheap one-liners that offer no solution whatsoever.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I don't WANT to go there in this thread, and I know I really shouldn't, but ... it's too strong to resist.

    Why do you believe in god? Have you met him? Or were you just told that some 2000 years ago he gave us his only son? And of course if people say that, it must be true, right? Have you read about god in that awkward book full of inconsistencies which is long overdue for revision? You know, that book full of misogynist propaganda, endorsing the cruellest forms of torture and child abuse in the name of love and peace... What makes you so sure yours is the only true god? Why isn't it Allah? Perhaps the god of the muslims, christians and jews is one and the same! But let's say they all worship a different god. Considering then that there are several large monotheist religions, only one god can, at best, be the one true god, and in that case the majority of all the people with faith are wrong, which means that statistically, the odds are very much against you.

    Who was the "lord Jesus" really? A delusional troublemaker? A loonatic? A soothing presence whom others posthumously called "the son of god"? Seriously, even if Jesus from Nazareth inspired people and spread messages of hope, what makes him of divine decent and not one of those weird homeless people who nowadays pray and preach in public and claim to be the voice of god? These people are called crazy, even by those who are still waiting for the return of their beloved prophet. Yet intuitively we can all sense that something is "off" with them; strange that jesus so neatly fits our criteria of sanity.

    If someone told you he heard voices in his head or saw the ghost of Elvis in his bath, you'd be on the phone with the nearest insane asylum. But a man who, as some age-old texts, poorly copied, poorly translated and most likely adjusted and "re-interpreted" to better fit the aims of some power-hungry Medieval pope, will have you believe, called himself the son of god and proclaimed that god spoke to him, you're willing to unconditionally and without the least bit of empirical evidence take him on his every quoted word?

    And even if god and Jesus were real, some cold bastards they are! Performing miracles but only 2000 years ago and never since. Allowing madness to reign supreme. Is Jesus ever planning to come back? A resurrection was ultimately promised; judging by the way things are going, I'd say the time is about right. And how is the holocaust supposed to fit the divine scheme? Or was god comfortably resting in his heavenly chair, moustache-twirling, while someone else was taking out the competition? Surely we can agree that the various churches have committed the most atrocious, heinous crimes in the name of god; why doesn't god step in? Even Justin Bieber is smart enough to attack newspapers which print damaging lies about him. Also, yes, churchES, as in Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, ... because despite only two key players and one book we still can't agree, not even remotely, about the ABC of the Holy Trinity and the meaning of Jesus' words--ain't that confusing! If I as a teacher made my facts that blurry and my statements that ambiguous, they'd fire me on the spot and they would be right for doing so too!

    In a universe which we are coming ever closer to understanding so well through the merits of science and its pure methods, how does a god still fit the picture? Please don't tell me you accept the Earth as being but a mere 6000 years old and evolution as "just" a theory and by no means better than the idea that god dropped us here without any form of evolution and of course surrounded by dinosaurs... :-S

    =))

    I did enjoy that. Classic rant.
  • BennyBenny Welcome to Japan Mr. BennyModerator
    Posts: 8,600
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I don't WANT to go there in this thread, and I know I really shouldn't, but ... it's too strong to resist.

    Why do you believe in god? Have you met him? Or were you just told that some 2000 years ago he gave us his only son? And of course if people say that, it must be true, right? Have you read about god in that awkward book full of inconsistencies which is long overdue for revision? You know, that book full of misogynist propaganda, endorsing the cruellest forms of torture and child abuse in the name of love and peace... What makes you so sure yours is the only true god? Why isn't it Allah? Perhaps the god of the muslims, christians and jews is one and the same! But let's say they all worship a different god. Considering then that there are several large monotheist religions, only one god can, at best, be the one true god, and in that case the majority of all the people with faith are wrong, which means that statistically, the odds are very much against you.

    Who was the "lord Jesus" really? A delusional troublemaker? A loonatic? A soothing presence whom others posthumously called "the son of god"? Seriously, even if Jesus from Nazareth inspired people and spread messages of hope, what makes him of divine decent and not one of those weird homeless people who nowadays pray and preach in public and claim to be the voice of god? These people are called crazy, even by those who are still waiting for the return of their beloved prophet. Yet intuitively we can all sense that something is "off" with them; strange that jesus so neatly fits our criteria of sanity.

    If someone told you he heard voices in his head or saw the ghost of Elvis in his bath, you'd be on the phone with the nearest insane asylum. But a man who, as some age-old texts, poorly copied, poorly translated and most likely adjusted and "re-interpreted" to better fit the aims of some power-hungry Medieval pope, will have you believe, called himself the son of god and proclaimed that god spoke to him, you're willing to unconditionally and without the least bit of empirical evidence take him on his every quoted word?

    And even if god and Jesus were real, some cold bastards they are! Performing miracles but only 2000 years ago and never since. Allowing madness to reign supreme. Is Jesus ever planning to come back? A resurrection was ultimately promised; judging by the way things are going, I'd say the time is about right. And how is the holocaust supposed to fit the divine scheme? Or was god comfortably resting in his heavenly chair, moustache-twirling, while someone else was taking out the competition? Surely we can agree that the various churches have committed the most atrocious, heinous crimes in the name of god; why doesn't god step in? Even Justin Bieber is smart enough to attack newspapers which print damaging lies about him. Also, yes, churchES, as in Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, ... because despite only two key players and one book we still can't agree, not even remotely, about the ABC of the Holy Trinity and the meaning of Jesus' words--ain't that confusing! If I as a teacher made my facts that blurry and my statements that ambiguous, they'd fire me on the spot and they would be right for doing so too!

    In a universe which we are coming ever closer to understanding so well through the merits of science and its pure methods, how does a god still fit the picture? Please don't tell me you accept the Earth as being but a mere 6000 years old and evolution as "just" a theory and by no means better than the idea that god dropped us here without any form of evolution and of course surrounded by dinosaurs... :-S

    Ahh Dimi, we are very much on the same page my friend.
    Reading that reminded me of a Ricky Gervais joke.


    (Warning may contain strong language and material that could offend)

  • Posts: 3,822
    Looking forward to the follow up tour when you looks at the Quran
  • barryt007barryt007 Getting counselling by Sir Roger over Kara Milovy
    Posts: 17,962
    patb wrote: »
    Looking forward to the follow up tour when you looks at the Quran
    why would we ever look at that ?

  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 943
    @saintmark, I didn't forget about the root cause, I did not bring it up. Instead I chose to focus on how I think we could remove those who seek to harm us as a nation. I can only wonder if you have actually read any of my posts? Nowhere did I speak about building walls or closing borders?
    Good luck with your 're-education' programme. It's a lovely idea but one lost upon people who have already committed to violence.
    While ever we maintain the illusion that these terrorists are somehow victims of our society then we leave open the way to more and more attacks.


  • barryt007barryt007 Getting counselling by Sir Roger over Kara Milovy
    Posts: 17,962
    stag wrote: »
    @saintmark, I didn't forget about the root cause, I did not bring it up. Instead I chose to focus on how I think we could remove those who seek to harm us as a nation. I can only wonder if you have actually read any of my posts? Nowhere did I speak about building walls or closing borders?
    Good luck with your 're-education' programme. It's a lovely idea but one lost upon people who have already committed to violence.
    While ever we maintain the illusion that these terrorists are somehow victims of our society then we leave open the way to more and more attacks
    .

    Agree 1million percent with this.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 16,446
    Terrorists are not victims of society, rather the other way around. I think we can accept that. Re-education? I wish we could. But those under the spell of extremism, religious or otherwise, are almost certainly lost. As long as people believe in the magical, the supernatural, the divine, in cultural pride, in patriotism, in political ideals and in racial purity, extremists will be around, especially while we keep breading children like rabbits and misunderstand our place in the cosmos.
  • Posts: 4,325
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Terrorists are not victims of society, rather the other way around. I think we can accept that. Re-education? I wish we could. But those under the spell of extremism, religious or otherwise, are almost certainly lost. As long as people believe in the magical, the supernatural, the divine, in cultural pride, in patriotism, in political ideals and in racial purity, extremists will be around, especially while we keep breading children like rabbits and misunderstand our place in the cosmos.

    Breading children?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 16,446
    Sorry. Typo. I meant breeding of course.
  • Posts: 4,325
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Sorry. Typo. I meant breeding of course.

    Of course.
  • Posts: 7,125
    stag wrote: »
    @saintmark, I didn't forget about the root cause, I did not bring it up. Instead I chose to focus on how I think we could remove those who seek to harm us as a nation. I can only wonder if you have actually read any of my posts? Nowhere did I speak about building walls or closing borders?
    Good luck with your 're-education' programme. It's a lovely idea but one lost upon people who have already committed to violence.
    While ever we maintain the illusion that these terrorists are somehow victims of our society then we leave open the way to more and more attacks.

    Your solution is rather one sided look at them terrorists and possible terrorists which by coincidence are all Muslim, which is true currently, even if not all Muslim are terrorists, lets take no risks.

    Educate the christian folk about other religions and cultures instead of being nationalistic about being British, American, Dutch, German etc. We do not have a society that mashes together but need a society that can have various groups living together. Unless you go for complete camps in which you put all Muslims you have them living among you and by understanding you stand a better chance of people not choosing the fundamentalist highway then by alienating them in the media and on the street.

    I work with Muslims every day and like me they do the same job and have the same worries, paying the bills, football, raising kids and giving them a future. And I like them very well they seem to be very human.

  • edited March 2017 Posts: 3,822
    It speaks volumes that, for some, after all of these attacks on innocent people, some how, it's our fault. If only we could be more understanding about Islam, if only we could live together like one happy family, we are all human, etc etc.
    Just remarkable stuff. Western liberal democracies have shown remarkable levels of understanding and tolerance with their attitidudes to immigration. Every community apart from Islam has made a great effort to intergrate and, at the same time, add something new to a vibrant and varied culture.
    Its funny and tragic at the same time that there are those who interpret the terror attacks with some form of guilt. "We are so sorry, we need to work better to understand you, please be patient whilst we make better efforts, etc etc".
    Its just remarkable and we need to work on this as an urgent priority as whilst there are those within our society who think its actually our fault, we are never going to make any progress.
    You have to ask, how many people have to be killed by Islamic extremists arund the planet before some will consider that it may not actually be our fault.

    http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2017/03/28/followers-of-the-tooth-fairy-vow-to-kill-non-believers/
  • Posts: 10,503
    Agreed, if we just accepted Sharia law and give up all our freedoms, we'd be safe :))

    Good thing that thinking wasn't listened to in 1939.
  • Posts: 7,125
    I add a wee Churchill for our British brothers and sisters: "A lie is halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on"
  • Posts: 10,503
    Wow two threads and the same quote, will there be a third ? ;)
  • Posts: 3,822
    Its just a matter of time before the next attack and more people will die or suffer horrible injuries. Perhaps , in the aftermath of that next attack, we can re-visit this thread and remind ourselves that its our fault.
  • Posts: 10,503
    It really is an odd state of affairs, when people blame the victim . :(
This discussion has been closed.