'Anyone for a jelly baby ? ' - Doctor Who discussion thread.

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  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    I saw the peice mentioned in the article on Newsnight yesterday didn't give it much credit really.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    My wife said that she thought Pater Capaldi hadn't been in the role for very long which made me look at the number of episodes he did over 4 years.

    Realised that the main series used to be 13 episodes and has now dropped to 12. At Christmas Capaldi will do his 40th and final episode as the principal Doctor (not counting the regeneration episode that ended Matt Smith's tenure).

    Christopher Eccleston did 13 episodes.
    David Tenant did 47 (3 full series, plus all of his specials, excluding 50th anniversary)
    Matt Smith did 44 ( 3 series, 4 Christmas plus the 50th Anniversary film)

    So Capaldi is not that far behind and only because his main series were reduced to 12 episodes.

    Half way through the next series we will hit 150th episode of New Who which is pretty impressive.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,894
    I think it seems as though he has made so little, because he took over at the end of 2013, then had a series + christmas special in 2014 and 2015, and only a christmas special in 2016. Had he made a series last year, I think the feeling would have been different.

    Interesting to see about the 150th episode. In terms of Classic Who (not breaking the stories down into their individual episodes), that would be Silver Nemesis.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    Classic Who, apart from one season during Colin Baker's time, was made up of 25 minute episodes. So it feels like New Who is 2 episodes in 1 :)

    Tom Baker made about 140 episodes, which would still be the equivalent of 70 current ones - way more than anyone else.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I am excited to see how things play out next year. To be fair Moffat has done his best to change things up over the years and keep the show fresh, but the change that comes with a new showrunner and a clean slate is just really exciting imo, just like it was back in 2010.

    I'm hoping they go back to basics a bit. More time spent on modern day earth. Less backstory and mythology and simpler stories with concepts you can get your head around, like the first series had (to be fair series 10 was a big step in the right direction). I'm also hoping that the master gets some time off again and that they don't bother with the daleks and cybermen for a while but I'm sure they will. Also I want the Weeping Angels to return it's been ages since they've been in it. Something else that could be cool is a looser approach, have it more serialised and less episodic. So instead of "in this episode they go here, in this episode they go here, and for these two episodes they're here" it's just here is the show, watch it and see how it plays out. So some plot threads might last a few weeks, others might not last so long, adventures could lead into eachother, etc. Like what South Park moved towards with their last couple of seasons: less episodic/adventure of the week, more just an ongoing thing (that isn't to say that the whole series should be focused on one story/villain though).
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,894
    NicNac wrote: »
    Classic Who, apart from one season during Colin Baker's time, was made up of 25 minute episodes. So it feels like New Who is 2 episodes in 1 :)

    Tom Baker made about 140 episodes, which would still be the equivalent of 70 current ones - way more than anyone else.

    Looking at it that way, the 150th episode would be The Moonbase episode 2.

    While the cliffhangers were sometimes more miss than hit, I prefer the classic series structure of one story spread over anything from 2 to 10* parts, though the best length was between 4 to 8 episodes).


    *I was going to say 14 at max, but it's length is one a the number of problems with The Trail Of A Timelord.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    The problem with the Weeping Angels is that they were limited. In Blink they were terrifying but then they tried to move them on, until in one episode you saw one of them turn it's heads towards a departing character. That wasn't how they worked, so it all looked wrong.

    I agree with @thelivingroyale. Get back to simpler times, as the later Matt Smith episodes were baffling at times.

    I've begun my process of buying all the New Who on bluray, so a massive re-watch is on the cards.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 12,837
    NicNac wrote: »
    I agree with @thelivingroyale. Get back to simpler times, as the later Matt Smith episodes were baffling at times.

    Yeah I think the Matt Smith era got too complicated with all that stuff with the silence. I did enjoy his last episode where they wrapped it all up but I still can't really say I understood that storyline.

    Things got a bit simpler with Peter Capaldi but my issue now is that it's complicated in a different way, with the time war being undone and mysterious prophecies that have never been mentioned until its convinient and the amount of villains and recurring characters and events that have been racked up since 2005, I think the show is collapsing under the weight of its own backstory a bit. I imagine if a ten year old had tried to start watching during series 9 for example, they'd have been completely lost. To be fair though I think the last series has done a great job streamlining/simplifying things, I just hope that the next showrunner takes it even further. What I want is basically a reboot, a complete fresh start, but one that still shares the same continuity as the older episodes. So all that other stuff still happened but apart from the basic premise of the show it isn't really relevant.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,869
    Sorry to disturb the debates and such, just wanted to show this piece of concept art I've done. I watched a video recently where a fan was talking about how he would want Damien Molony as the next Doctor, and I could really see it, so I thought I'd try and put together a little concept for him as the Doctor, then ended up adding an actress I adore, Charlotte Hope as the companion.

    the_13th_doctor___doctor_who_concept_art__1_by_sirturn-dbfm2pf.jpg

    P.S: Yes, his costume is the Eighth Doctors. It's such a cool costume :D
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 19,339
    This just in :

    Peter Capaldi wraps filming on Doctor Who and takes time to meet fans on his final day.

    It's the end of an era, as Peter Capaldi has played the Doctor for the last time (for now).

    The Doctor Who star wrapped up filming on his final ever day as the incumbent Doctor, and fans waiting outside got a lovely surprise when he said hello and posed for photos with them.

    Lucky, indeed.

    Capaldi is bowing out at Christmas with a special that will see him join forces with David Bradley, who reprises his role as The First Doctor from the docu-drama An Adventure in Space and Time.
    Back behind the camera for this year's Christmas special will be Rachel Talalay, who most recently directed series 10's two-part finale 'World Enough and Time' and 'The Doctor Falls'.

    Talalay recently said that the upcoming episode is a "fanboy's dream".

    Moffat is also already hyping Bradley's return, calling it an "eerily perfect" recreation of William Hartnell's 1960s-era First Doctor.

    Meanwhile, John Simm has not ruled out a possible future return as The Master – despite having been stabbed and killed by Michelle Gomez's Missy incarnation.

    "You know what, I don't know," he said. "I mean, I wouldn't have thought in a million years that I'd be back [in 2017], yet here I am talking about it. So never say never."



  • Posts: 12,506
    Well David Tennant has returned once so who knows?
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    MEET THE NEW DOCTOR,! This Sunday on BBC One after the Men's final from Wimbledon
    That is all .
  • Posts: 19,339
    Really ?! how do you know ?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,894
    Mrcoggins wrote: »
    MEET THE NEW DOCTOR,! This Sunday on BBC One after the Men's final from Wimbledon
    That is all .

    Really? It is about that time. Filming of the special is done, and filming on the next series begins in November.

    Steven himself, Peter Purves, as spoken out against a female doctor:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/former-doctor-who-companion-peter-10794996
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Really ?! how do you know ?

    Trust me I know things ! Really I do.
  • Posts: 12,506
    It is also on the facebook feed too! Although according to the TV guide? Their is no TV special with Zoe Ball like last time, it just has the BBC news?
  • Posts: 5,809
  • Posts: 12,837
    I do feel sorry for Peter Capaldi. He's a brilliant actor and a huge fan and in the last series he's finally gotten the opportunity to show just how good he could be. It feels like his era is being cut short just as it's hit its stride to me, and I get the sense that him leaving might not have been all that voluntary (I doubt they actually fired him but might have been a jumped before he was pushed scenario, or felt pressured to leave to give the show a fresh start). I think the writing let him down for his first two series but I also think that an older actor just doesn't have the mass appeal that the BBC crave. Which is a shame because he's an incredible actor and you can tell he loves the show and has never phoned it in or given anything less than 100%. I think the whole situation is very similar to Dalton with Bond in a way.

    I wouldn't mind it being a woman really. There's nothing about the character that seems gender specific to me imo, although @NicNac made a good point about there being plenty of great female roles going for working women actors already without giving up one of the best male ones. I do have a feeling they might go down that road though. I've read that the ratings have been bad and the show as a whole doesn't feel anywhere near the level of popularity it was from 2005-2010 (when it was a real phenomenon), or even 2010-2014 (when it was less of a big deal but seemed to be really taking off in America and had the 50th stuff getting public attention).

    So I think that the ratings mean it could go two ways: the BBC could do something really drastic to drum up some publicity, like casting a woman doctor. Or they could do the opposite, and pay it really safe with Tennant/Smith 2.0 to try and recapture the audience it lost. I genuinely can't see it being anything in between. Calling it now, it'll be a woman or if it's still a man, a young white geeky male. I'm going to check the odds now because at this point with the reveal being set we might be able to make a good prediction, like when Capaldi's odds shot up at the last minute.
  • Posts: 12,506
    Really curious about the new person? However? Really saddened to be losing Capaldi!
  • If it is a woman then all the betting is now pointing to one name: Jodie Whittaker from Broadchurch. She has even gone past Kris Marshall and is the new favourite with the bookmakers.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    I'm nervous about this, rather than excited.

    I don't want a woman simply because it's pandering to the PC brigade as usual. And if it's another white male they will be slated for inherent racism or sexism or whatever. Either way it's a lose lose.

    I'm hoping they play safe to get the ratings up, but a woman won't surprise me. Just disappoint me
  • OnlyManWhoCanOnlyManWhoCan Greater London
    Posts: 202
    Whoever it's going to be it shouldn't be another white man. It's built into the fabric of the character that he can change his sex/race/species with each regeneration so at this point it's just silly that he's been a white man for so long.

    Speaking as a white man myself, with so many white male heroes in pop culture to choose from, I see no issue with the Doctor being something else. It would be refereshing and would truely prove that 'anyone can be the doctor.'
  • Posts: 12,837
    Whoever it's going to be it shouldn't be another white man. It's built into the fabric of the character that he can change his sex/race/species with each regeneration so at this point it's just silly that he's been a white man for so long.

    Speaking as a white man myself, with so many white male heroes in pop culture to choose from, I see no issue with the Doctor being something else. It would be refereshing and would truely prove that 'anyone can be the doctor.'

    I sort of agree. I'm not against another white male getting the part but I can see why you are. What's important to me is that they don't just play it completely safe. White male? Cool. White male in the vein of Tennant and Smith? Boring. I really hope Capaldi hasn't put them off doing something different. I'm just worried that the BBC will view Capaldi as a failed experiment and decide that Tennant was so iconic that they can't ever break out of that mold again. I think Moore proved with Bond that the best way to make the audience forget about a hugely popular actor is to do something different.

    To be fair I can sort of see why long time fans would be against a woman getting the role. But I don't think it'd be that big a change really. They'd get a couple of gags out of it but they've already established that he can be absoloutely anyone or anything and the few traits that do carry over I don't see as being gender specific. I really don't think that it'd have much of an impact on the show itself and it would generate a decent bit of publicity, something they could do with at the moment.

    At the end of the day, I think whoever is cast deserves a fair chance. And if worst comes to worst and the actor is a complete flop then oh well, they can regenerate again next christmas, no harm done.
    If it is a woman then all the betting is now pointing to one name: Jodie Whittaker from Broadchurch. She has even gone past Kris Marshall and is the new favourite with the bookmakers.

    Yeah I saw that. Seems very believeable imo, if I had to put my money on someone it'd be her.
  • OnlyManWhoCanOnlyManWhoCan Greater London
    Posts: 202
    @thelivingroyale

    Of course, I'm happy for anyone to play the Doctor as long as they're great. I don't think Capaldi's performance is the problem at all and I think the BBC would be silly to place the blame on his shoulders. I haven't been following the ratings but I'm not surprised they dipped.

    I would have placed the blame 100% on the convulted plots we have been getting, but a couple of years ago I had a chat with my niece who said she stopped watching Dr Who because she didn't like Capaldi, and I got the distinct impression it was because he wasn't a dreamboat like Tennant and Smith (ie: a younger Doctor).

    I think a totally fresh Doctor a la Roger Moore is the way to go and whilst this could be achieved with a white male I still think the format invites a totally differnent gender or race (or both!)

    It seems bizarre that in 2017 this is even an issue. On Sunday the geeky internet will be alight with people moaning about Doctor Who, either because they think the PC brigade has ruined the character or because the BBC has flipped the bird to all their 'minority' fans once again.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 12,837
    I agree it shouldn't be an issue at all and yeah, either way there's going to be someone kicking off. Oh well.

    To be honest I understood the convoluted plot complaints during Matt Smith's era but with Capaldi I haven't found that to be a huge issue. I do think the writing for his first couple of series wasn't great though. Not convoluted, but series 8 was just bad imo and series 9 felt so dull and by the numbers that I skipped 90% of it (I think I watched the first three and the finale).

    Series 10 on the other hand has been brilliant but the ratings still haven't been great, even with a new companion and them basically spoiling the whole thing in advance to try and drum up publicity (I really wish they'd had the confidence to keep John Simm's return a secret).

    I don't think it's Capaldi's fault at all, because on the whole he's been brilliant, but I do think that certain audience members just didn't take to the idea of an older grittier doctor and tuned out after that. They could have compensated for this, but I think his first couple of years being so poor meant that a whole different section of the audience also tuned out, and I think the BBC's horrible marketing/branding may have been the final nail in the coffin. Basically I think it's a combination of a lot of different things and a refresh was needed, but I'm glad that Capaldi got a brilliant final series first. Oxygen and the last two in particular are some of the best episodes of the whole show imo. Just wish they'd got to that point earlier. Series 8 fair enough, they were still establishing the new actor, but series 9 was so boring and stale.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,869
    My biggest wish for the show is probably not going to happen, we've had subtle versions of it before but never fully enough to worth commending, especially in Series 9. The realism and darkness of the old series, Doctor Who became a kids show by accident and I don't think was ever intended especially with how scary and grown up it felt. You had younger characters for the younger audience but they were more young adults. Now that your audience is growing up, grow with them. If most of your stories are "scary and high concept" yet spoilt by trying to make it suitable for kids then what was the point.

    I want a companion that's an adult, does things that adults do. I've always thought it'd be interesting if the Thirteenth Doctor's regeneration lands him in a snow location like Godric's Hollow from Harry Potter and meets a companion who was just at the pub celebrating Christmas with her friends, and I can just picture the 13th Doctor (who in my head is played by Damien Molony) and the new companion (who in my head is played by Imogen Poots) having that first interaction in the snow with the usual post-regeneration antics, but... not in a cheesy way that's for kids. Something that feels real and honest to the beauty of this series and how great it could be :D
  • OnlyManWhoCanOnlyManWhoCan Greater London
    Posts: 202
    Yup this last series has been mostly good up until Oxygen but then it was back to dull, formulaic plots until the last two episodes. I also agree with your assesment that by the time this series came around the damage might have been done and people associated this Doctor with the same messy/confusing plotting of series 8 and 9.

    What I like most about Doctor Who is the sense of adventure: the 'anytime, anywhere' aspect of it. Open those TARDIS doors and you be anywhere in creation.

    It seems to me that the exploration side of things has been lost in favour of clever-clever plotting and soap operatics. Maybe I'm just thick (NB: this is a very likely scenario) but I get the most out of a story when it has a beginning, middle and end - NOT when it has an end, a bit of beginning, middle, beginning, middle, end and then the beginning.

    Of course, some of the dull episodes didn't feature time travel at their heart, but then they're often let down by some hammy acting or just some 'been there, done that' stories, (which must be difficult to avoid for a 50+ years old show).

    My favourite of this series was Thin Ice: it had a great sense of place, Bill was being a great audience surrogate, and the simple story was told well, with some great performances from the heroes and horrible villain.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,894
    I have my fingers crossed for Richard Ayoade, but I know he won't be cast. The pressure for a female doctor*, is mounting, if it doesn't happen now, it will in the near future.

    *And mark my words, given the growing fragile nature of society, you can forget any criticism of a female Doctor. You know, because sexism...


    I recently stumbled across a clip of 'Utopia', and I will now admit to beign wrong about Derek Jacobi as The Master.



    "Oh... now I can say... I was provoked."

    Big Finish are bringing his Master back, in December, as The War Master. I might pick up a copy.
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