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What if indeed the majority of the English want out but indeed the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish vote differently, what will that do for the union?
Personally the UK will be economical toast when they leave the EU. And some EU members will not mind seeing them go as it will give them a chance to pick some business that England still has.
And I doubt that the banking business supports UK floating away from the EU.
As for leaving the EU, I don't see it. Right now much blame is laid on Brussles doorstep, mostly by tabloids and populist parties all over Europe. They are aided by backbenchers who see a chance to gain profile and influence in the wake of the crusade against Europe. All of a sudden now it becomes apparent those clamouring the loudest to get out of the EU are the the very people who have to do their homework in their own country.
The simple fact of the matter is that the state of affairs in the UK is exactly as the City wants it. And we all know you can hardly govern against the City, not even if those in office wanted to. Also, for as long as Europe was convenient you didn't hear anybody complain about it, the common market fitted just fine. Now, as things got a whole lot tougher the rats want to leave ship, how surprising. Isn't that the very freeloader mentality the populists keep complaining about? Fact is there is nobody else to blame for things running wrong than ourselves. Patriots know this and look for ways to improve things. Nationalists simply blame the foreigners.
I think Salmond missed a trick as well by not warning about the risks of staying in the UK. Look at what's happening now with threats to the Barnett formula and every likelyhood that Scottish MPs are going to lose voting rights at Westminster. What a shambles!
The only way the UK can be made to work now is with a totally seperate English parliament (or perhaps regional assemblies) and then a much reduced UK parliament to address foreign policy and defence.
We have a federal system in all but name - time to reform our institutions accordingly.
The UK faces several centrifugal political forces now. The only realistic way to address them would be to introduce some kind of broader federal system, yet up to very recently the UK lacked the necessary traditions and willingness to do so. What nominally is a union has in fact been a centralistic state for centuries. That discrepancy isn't likely to be solved easily. And in the end this process will mean losing some Scottish voting rights in London, it can hardly end differently, can it? I won't mind that, provided the turf and the responsibilities are defined fairly.
Very nice way to insult 55% of Scottish people Getafix.
I'm sure you're right that most Scots accept there needs to be a reduction in their influence over English only matters. I don't think the opposition to reform will come from Scots per se, rather Scottish Labour MPs and the party leadership. The problem is Milipede and his utterly partisan defence of Scottish MPs voting on English matters in order to protect any remaining chance of Labour winning the election. Both main party leaders are currently acting like idiots, but Milipede's patronising attitude towards the English electorate is offensive. I'm nominally a Labour supporter, but I've found his evasive and pathetic behaviour in the last couple of days sickening. He should have seen this coming and had a clear response. This evasiveness is going to turn off the electorate big time.
Apologies @Sammm04, I just think that a large number of the 55% were just spineless. I respect those who believe in the union in principal - that's fine. But those who probably wanted to vote yes but bottled it because of concerns about the currency or empty threats from big business that they'd 'move South' have just let their country down. The positive arguments for independence were overwhelming IMO, as evidenced by the shambles that is now unravelling in Westminster.
So you're apologising for offending 2 million people by offending them further?
If you're offended personally, I apologise for my slightly overheated comments on a heated subject.
If not, then I think the Scottish unionists can look after themselves and don't need you to stick up for them on a Bond forum.
Why are people so bloody obsessed with taking or perceiving 'offence' all the time. It's utterly tedious.
I dislike nationalism for its own sake and always have done, but you're right in saying that moving to Northern Ireland has only made this feeling stronger. Obviously I'm aware the NI has its own special levels of nationalistic moron who fortunately aren't found in such quantities elsewhere (UKIP aside). I have always held the view that no country is automatically better than any other simply because you or I happen to be born there; if you are going to be proud of being from somewhere then there has to be a basis for it. Nonetheless I will admit that I don't see mindless nationalism as the real motive behind the Yes vote, it is a fringe factor at most.
From a Scottish point of view I simply don't understand how people can be willing to commit to full independence without the currency issue actually resolved. The euro is shaky (to put it mildly), a new Scottish currency would be worthless and even if a currency union with the UK did turn out to be workable, it can't possibly be in Scotland's interest - you would have almost no say over your interest rates or anything else, as per Argentina with its crippling practice of tying its currency to the US Dollar. I find it bewildering that so many people were willing to charge into irreversible change without the issue being properly resolved.
I can't think of any worse resource to base your long-term economy on than oil. It's a fossil fuel, it's depleting rapidly and becoming more expensive all the time and the world is furiously looking to find viable alternatives to it. I won't attempt to guess how much oil you have left because there seem to be more opinions on that than there are people in Scotland. The bottom line remains the same - Scotland basing its future on oil is like Yorkshire deciding 50 years ago that its 5 million people should form an independent country on the basis that it's rich in coal.
From a British point of view, all I see is the destruction of our country at a STAGGERING expense to us and over which we have no say whatsoever. The breakaway process for Scotland would cost every taxpayer in the UK dearly and we wouldn't have any ability to prevent it. How can you expect any English, Welsh or Northern Irish person to be happy at the prospect of Scottish independence costing the UK government billions of pounds over the next 10-20 years?
I understand that Westminster politicians making decisions for people in Scotland probably doesn't feel good, but I'd have though the promises of even more power for Holyrood would make a much more sensible alternative than smashing up the entire country and going it alone. The situation for the English isn't satisfactory to us either given that we don't have an English parliament (unlike S, W and NI) so Scottish MPs get to vote on English domestic issues and that doesn't seem ideal either. However the idea I've seen bandied around that independent Scottish politics would somehow be 'different' to any other country's politics is simply wishy-washy nonsense. Politicians are what they are and you would simply be hating a different group of overpaid toffs in suits sooner or later.
From an international perspective, I'm no tinfoil hat-wearing "the terrorists will win" type, but it's not difficult to see the prospect of a small and decreasingly relevant country in north-western Europe spending billions of pounds over the next decade on an internal political breakup as exactly what Britain's enemies would want to see. Regardless of whether Trident is a good or bad thing (I'm ambivalent), the fact is that it does exist and the cost of moving it from one part of the UK to another strikes me as an incredibly foolish thing to spend billions of pounds on.
More generally, I guess I just find it incredibly sad that 45% of people in Scotland seem to have absolutely no loyalty to the United Kingdom and to only see themselves as Scottish. I've never understood why it's not possible to be both Scottish and British and content with both. Did you really watch the London 2012 Olympics and feel absolutely no sense of pride at Britain putting on such a good show to the world? Do 45% of Scottish people really not care about the UK at all? Regardless of the repeatedly claim that this isn't an anti-English movement, the staggering cost and upheaval that a Yes vote would have cost all 60 million UK residents does come across as "this might feasibly be better for us, so screw the rest of you".
Oh dear. You maybe want to pick your toys back up. They seem to have fallen from your pram.
Wipe those tears little baby.
I obviously disagree, but nicely put.
Obviously different things have been projected onto each side, but I suspect that a large number of the 'Yes' voters were actually people who could have might a few years ago have been pro-union, but have grown sick of UK politics. I suspect that there are many who would have been happy staying in the UK if they felt it was a broadly progressive and well run place. But the fact is that governments in Westminster, whether from the left or right, have been strikingly incompetent and lacking in any coherent long-term vision for a very long time. Rather than an alternative to what had come before , New Labour gave us economic Thatcherism on steroids, with some welfare window-dressing. The current coalition is a sort of directionless shambles. I cannot see Miliband and his bunch of dead beats offering much improvement.
So any way, what I would guess is that perhaps previously pro-Unionist Scots have just become utterly dissillusioned with the way the UK is run, and far from having anything against the English, Welsh or N Irish, just felt it was a natual and sensible time to make a break. Economic, family and cultural ties between Scotland and the UK would have remained unavoidably close and strong. It's just Scotland would no longer be held back by the depressing bunch of losers in Westminster.
Err... do you actually have any to say on this subject? If not, why don't you choose another thread to wind up?
Pots and kettles.
It's not so much nationalism, it's patriotism. A love for the country instead of a hate for foreign countries. I grant you, it's not solely based on the cold rational judgement. Few human feelings are. What this idea of Scottish independence really is about is a longing for a home of our own.
Actually the Euro proved more stable than Sterling. I've heard the Euro being buried for years now. Most of the guys announcing the showing seem a lot worse for wear than the Euro if you ask me. But you are right, the currency would have had to be sorted out before starting this campaign. The most likely way to do it would have been a pragmatic tying with the Trident matter, a currency union in exchange for a 20 year lease on the Trident installations. That way Westminster could have kept face and their weapons for a clearly defined period. Nobody can even tell how much strategic value these weapons will have in 2035. The only sure thing is they cost the tax payer billions without affecting anything else than the low self-esteem of some. That's a bit expensive for a therapy.
And yet the UK is perfectly happy to do just the same, base a large part of its energy economy and its future energy mix on the Scottish oil. Of course that's something completely different.
The "destruction" of a country is a bit harsh. Scots simply don't like being perceived as property. You don't own them, do you? So if they decide to go separate ways it's entirely within your powers to change their minds and win them over. As in point of fact you did. Now all you have to do is live up to the promises made.
Promises. The downside of that term is they have to be kept by the one who made them to you. It helps a great deal if you could trust that persons.
Britain's enemies don't waste their time with matters of independence, or so I trust. They are much too busy creating bubbles and making a killing on the inevitable burst.
From what I've read over the last few weeks I doubt even some unionists would want to share the country with their ilk, judging by the spite and hate poured out once the referendum became a realistic chance on an independent Scotland. Perhaps the referendum really should have included all of the UK. The outcome would have surprised you.
I should think so. How about you?
I don't think independence would have delivered immediate, huge improvements. The change would have been noticeable over decades, as better governance and freedom to operate in a more competetive way in terms of corporation tax etc took effect.
Scotland is already one of the most economically vibrant parts of the UK outside London. With independence, that pattern would have accelerated rapidly IMO.
the trouble with the yes camp was that they just did not tell the people what they were going to get if they won probably because the yes party SNP did not know themselves .
I think it partly because you cannot say 100% what is going to happen. A lot would have had to be negotiated with the UK government in London. Salmond could not at this stage say how everything would work out.
I have a strong suspicion that the SNP's fall back plan if London had not agreed to currency union may well have still been the Euro. However, for obvious reasons Salmond didn't want to say that.
Also, it's not as if the UK government were able to tell the Scots 100% of what was going to happen if they voted no. As we are now discovering, there are lots of unknown consequences for Scotland in staying in the union. Who knows where this journey is heading?
I think this is one of the sad things about the independence debate - that it was not accompanied by a discussion within the rest of the UK about what constitutional changes the whole country needs. No thought to what would happen if Scotland left, or if it stayed and got even more devolved powers. The past 2 years should have been spent building a positive and inspiring vision for the future shape of the union, instead Cameron and Miliped burried their heads in the sand and pretended there was nothing to discuss.
Classic dithering, rudderless British politicians of the most feeble kind.
Is it something we said?
Why are you complaining about? I have German and Austrian blood in my veins courtesy of my heritage.