The theories of Bond films! Why has the series never had the actors best work be his final picture?

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    Interesting and plausible thoughts. I always assumed that one, Tracy was telling the truth and didn't know about Che Che being in her room. I also assumed that Che Che was there to lay harm to Bond, which is weird since he had done nothing to show he wanted to harm or hurt Tracy.

    Draco in his monologue to Bond made it seem that Tracy wasn't in touch with him, but if Che Che was indeed assigned to her as a bodyguard that wouldn't be the case. Or am I reading too much into what Draco shares with Bond in their fireside chat?

  • Posts: 15,997
    I always understood that Che Che was sent by Draco as a sort of chaperone, but without her knowledge and consent. "See that my daughter doesn't get under the charm of some beau or gigolo. If you see one of these kinds snooping around, dispose of him accordingly. She may protest for now, but she'll thank me later."
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,811
    They must have seen her try to kill herself then? Were they just beaten to getting there by Bond?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 9 Posts: 4,083
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting and plausible thoughts. I always assumed that one, Tracy was telling the truth and didn't know about Che Che being in her room. I also assumed that Che Che was there to lay harm to Bond, which is weird since he had done nothing to show he wanted to harm or hurt Tracy.

    Draco in his monologue to Bond made it seem that Tracy wasn't in touch with him, but if Che Che was indeed assigned to her as a bodyguard that wouldn't be the case. Or am I reading too much into what Draco shares with Bond in their fireside chat?

    Draco's men seemed to be in a bit of a confusing situation, really 😅.

    Remember, we haven't taken into an account here of what are they doing in the beach, if they're there to save Tracy, why put a knife on her neck? Why threatened her more? Then when Bond fought them, they've just ignored Tracy at one side, and Che Che was also in the beach scene.

    Maybe I could understand Che Che's motivations more the next time I rewatch OHMSS again.
  • Posts: 15,997
    I still think Che Che was chaperoning her. He saw Bond, knew exactly why he was there, acted according to his instructions, thinking Bond was some kind of male gold digger (is there a word for that?).
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    I don't think there is, when I did a quick search I got gigolo and fortune-hunter but I don't think capture what you are saying as well as gold digger.

    Yeah I have often thought the beach sequence was really done for cinematic reasons. Tracy would know the men that Draco sent. The men wouldn't treat her so roughly or risk her complaining to Draco. That whole scene is really designed to get Bond into some action and to set up Tracy being a troubled soul.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 10 Posts: 4,083
    thedove wrote: »
    I don't think there is, when I did a quick search I got gigolo and fortune-hunter but I don't think capture what you are saying as well as gold digger.

    Yeah I have often thought the beach sequence was really done for cinematic reasons. Tracy would know the men that Draco sent. The men wouldn't treat her so roughly or risk her complaining to Draco. That whole scene is really designed to get Bond into some action and to set up Tracy being a troubled soul.

    Seen OHMSS again (after all of the debates about Lazenby and the talks of this film), I think it helped me re evaluate the film more, I still liked it, but the actions of Draco's men in the beach just didn't makes sense, still why threatened her of putting a knife on her neck if they're there to guard her and protect her? True, it's mostly done for cinematic reasons and for Lazenby to showcase his fighting skills, but in narrative, just didn't makes sense at all.

    It could've been better had they've threatened Bond not to come to Tracy and that's where the action starts.

    It all made Che Che's presence in Tracy's room all the more confusing because he was there in the beach, I think Draco was somewhat in touch with Tracy through his men watching her, but it's Tracy who was not in touch with her father, so I would've bought Che Che as a bodyguard, if that beach scene turned out differently, but they've threatened Tracy and put a knife on her neck, maybe Che Che was threatening Tracy that's why Tracy had a gun when she welcomed Bond? Because Tracy might've thought that Bond was probably another of Draco's men who's out for her?

    Like why Tracy aimed a gun at Bond, knowing that this was the same man who have saved her in the beach? She even knew his name, maybe Tracy thought that Draco sent him, and Che Che was there to threatened Tracy (maybe to return back to Draco?) But Tracy threatened Che Che with a gun, and when Bond arrived, Che Che was already on his way out, thinking of him as threat because of the beach scene, the two had a fight again?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    Maybe this theory raised more questions than it answered. Great job with the different thoughts that were shared here.

    Here is one that was recently brought to my attention and for this one we are going back to DN.

    Bond meets Sylvia Trench at the casino. Some mild flirting ensues and soon Bond is giving Miss Trench his business card. Though if one looks closely we will see that Miss Trench might actually be Mrs. Trench. Yes a diamond on the third finger of her left hand.

    What is our theory here?

    What is your theory is Miss Sylvia Trench really Mrs. Sylvia Trench?

    5918-1532336916.jpg


    Some actors and actresses refuse to take off their wedding bands. I suppose Eunice Grayson may have been married and that ring may have been her wedding ring. Or do we think the backstory of Sylvia Trench is that she is a married woman looking for some fun?

    If she is married what is she doing at a casino in the wee hours of the morning flirting with a stranger?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,811
    Never spotted that, interesting. More like an engagement ring you'd think.
    It'd fit with Bond's predilection for married women.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    mtm wrote: »
    Never spotted that, interesting. More like an engagement ring you'd think.
    It'd fit with Bond's predilection for married women.

    Yes it might be just an engagement ring, which would leave her in a grey area? Or once engaged you are basically betrothed?
  • Sylvia Trench probably met a very rich man who promised to bankroll her gambling fun. They decided to get married for image's sake. For some fun before her marriage, Trench decided to enjoy Bond's company.

    Trench disappeared after FRWL because upon their marriage, her husband's business moved them to some other country (for tax benefits or something). That explains why she was so desperate for Bond's company in that scene (it would be her last time seeing him).

    As for real life, Eunice Gayson was between marriages at this point (divorce in 1959, and another marriage in 1968). 6/7 years would be quite a long time to be engaged, but I don't know enough to rule out the fact that it was hers (could have been an engagement broken off in the between period for example)
  • Posts: 15,997
    mtm wrote: »
    Never spotted that, interesting. More like an engagement ring you'd think.
    It'd fit with Bond's predilection for married women.

    Yes, I'd easily buy that. She's engaged, but doesn't mind playing the field. She might not seriously think she'll marry her betrothed, but she likes to lead him on.

    Maybe she did marry him in the end, between the events of FRWL and GF. Hence her disappearance.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited August 11 Posts: 14,666
    Yeah like @mtm said.

    Ms. Trench is Bond's type. Single.

  • Posts: 1,766
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Never spotted that, interesting. More like an engagement ring you'd think.
    It'd fit with Bond's predilection for married women.

    Yes, I'd easily buy that. She's engaged, but doesn't mind playing the field. She might not seriously think she'll marry her betrothed, but she likes to lead him on.

    Maybe she did marry him in the end, between the events of FRWL and GF. Hence her disappearance.

    He's really, really old and really, really, really wealthy. She was at the club the night she met Bond because the old guy was already in bed - as every night - by 7:30. When she was rolling and rowing with Bond at the start of FRWL the old guy was being taken around to his monthly round of doctor appointments. He kicked off post-FRWL and she asked Bond if he'd like to travel the world with her. Not much for being a kept man, as well as liking the excitement of his job and the variety of ladies he met, he declined...as she expected. Off she went....heyyyyy, you're right ! She's prime for a series of stories of her own in some books/comic books, video games, movies ! Who'd be a fine Eunice these days on film ? For the sake of slimming down casting even just a little, I'd say stick with the dark and the arched eyebrow when appropriate. She's got the cool, after all, it was SHE who used the self-introduction of "Last Name. First name last name." When Bond said it, he was following her lead. So...who'd be a fine Eunice these days ? Anya Taylor-Joy ? Nope. Someone British. Bono's daughter Eve Hewson ? Yup. She's my suggestion. Period films, going back to timeframe where her character left off ? Yup. My suggestion on that. She goes off on her wealthy widow adventures, something happens, she gets recruited by Miss Moneypenny and M and off we go...
  • Posts: 6,206
    May I suggest Niamh Mary Smith ? She played the part already, after all.
  • Posts: 15,997
    I'd imagine Sylvia Trench to be engaged to a handsome, well to do man, but somewhat boring.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 773
    Miss Sylvia Trench is no doubt a codename for Mrs. Sylvia Trench. ;)
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 15,321
    Yes I did notice the ring on her finger, and another thing I noticed (as good old uncle Felix would say) - WHERE IS MY WIFE?!
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    It is interesting to speculate on this!

    Okay another thought popped into my head. The tenure of a Bond actor and how we have never seemed to hit the "Goldilocks" amount of films. In other words the actor played the part for just the right amount of time or films.
    • Sean played Bond for 6 official films with an un-official one thrown in. He started in DN and ended with either DAF or NSNA, either way the quality dropped in his tenure.
    • George played Bond for 1 film. He did an admirable effort but never returned to the role again. Many wished for him to start in the next film at the least to complete the storyline.
    • Roger played Bond for 7 films. Started with LALD and ended with AVTAK, again safe to say his first film was better than his last effort.
    • Timothy played Bond for 2 films, most would agree that a missed opportunity was not having a 3rd film to complete a trilogy of sorts.
    • Pierce played Bond for 4 films. Started with GE and ended with DAD. Some would say his first film was the best, he puts up a good effort in DAD but the story did him no favours. Many fans wish he had done one more to end on top.
    • Daniel played Bond in 5 films. Started with CR and ended with NTTD. The ending of NTTD left many polarized. It would seem SP was written with his character to ride off into the sunset.

    So what is your theory on why we have never seemed to achieve a Goldilocks moment where the end of the tenure was as good as the start? The theories may be varied and complex given different actors and producers. Given the timelines and outside events. But I am curious, why you think within the range of each actor that they either left too soon or that they overstayed their welcome?

    Or give me a theory on why the ending of an actor in the role tends to be on a less successful film. Certainly the case for Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craig.
  • Posts: 15,997
    I honestly think NTTD is as close as we can get to a Goldilocks end of tenure. Not perfect by any stretch, but a conscious, brave effort to provide a proper swansong, in an overall far more consistent tenure.

    As for why we didn't get it for the actors, I suspect it goes like this: if an actor is successful in a role, we try to replicate it in the next entry, until it fails. Then you either try a new approach, or cast another actor and see if it can work better with it. If you do option 1, you repeat it until it fails. Which then leads you eventually to option 2, recast.
  • Posts: 2,317
    Final films tend to be transitional films, which is why they feel a little different from what would be the actor's peak moment
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    I suppose that might explain some of it @DEKE_RIVERS I wish Moore had hung it up at the end of OP. The ending with him and Adams on the boat into the sunset had a nice feel to it. Bringing him back for AVTAK was a mistake IMO.

    Brosnan didn't know it was his last film, Connery knew or thought he knew it was the last time playing James Bond. Craig knew and demanded a death of his Bond.

    Dalton didn't know LTK was his final film, I think the time gap conspired against him, though some have posited that this in fact was a way for him and Cubby to save face and cut bait.

    @Ludovico I guess NTTD is the best of the Swan songs. It certainly tied up all loose ends and character arc for Bond.

    I still maintain no actor has gone out as good as when they came in. Funny that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,857
    I don't think there's a 'law' hidden in here. Honestly, most of this is coincidental.
    • DAF was a reaction to OHMSS, while cinema was changing, and with Hamilton and Mankiewicz leaking an unusual lack of seriousness into the films. With or without Connery, it seems unlikely that DAF ever would have been a stronger film than DN, FRWL or GF.
    • AVTAK was made under budget constraints, script rewrites needed to move from an ambitious to a more grounded plot, a fire at Pinewood Studios, ... With or without Moore, I don't know if the film would have been better.
    • LTK is up for debate. It's gained so much respect since its release, we can discuss at length which film is the stronger, TLD or LTK.
    • DAD was an attempt to thrive in the video game version of the 21st century. It seems reasonable to assume that if another actor had stepped in, he'd have been given DAD too. It wasn't even supposed to be Brosnan's last.
    • I don't think that any film could ever do better than CR, but that's a personal thought, of course. Even the celebrated SF, while impressive, is a step down from CR in my opinion.

    If we must look for a rule, I suppose it's fair to say that an actor's first film is usually a good moment to inject the series with new energy (e.g. TLD, GE, CR) while audiences are naturally very interested in seeing the new face do his thing. There have also been a few time gaps, new directors, and so one, but none of this was always the case.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,047
    Yeah Dalton bucks the trend in that I think LTK would be the better of his two performances, but that said there is a what if with him. What if they had done a third film. Which if we believe Tim, and who I am to doubt him. he wanted to do. Apparently Cubby said if he did one it would not work that he needed to do a couple more.

    Will we ever have a Bond actor go out on a high or on a film that cements his work at the same level as what came before?

    It might be all coincidence, I think it's interesting that a series this long and arguably the actors have all left on either a weak note, film or they left with a tantalizing "what if".

    Shall be interesting to see what transpires with the new hands on deck.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,857
    Tim has said that they had begun working on a third film when the financial troubles started, so I guess they were at least planning to move forward with Dalton. I really wish we could have gotten a third Dalton Bond. We were denied something potentially great: Dalton's GF or TSWLM.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,921
    Bond is meant to be a continuing story (yes, even NTTD)...so the idea of an ending does not logically fit that paradigm.

    OHMSS could have been the creative ending of the series.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 15,321
    Strictly speaking films, Dalton starts strong and ends strong. If we were to include adventures from other mediums (which I always wish we would), Brosnan starts strong and ends on a high note.
  • edited 8:28am Posts: 5,759
    It’s not a case of each actor’s last film always being their weakest. Many would say NTTD’s a strong ending to the Craig era, and I’d say the same about LTK with Dalton’s/argue it’s stronger than TLD. I think it’s generally a case where those last films tend to feel very different compared to the beginning of the actor’s tenure - in the case of DAF, DAD and NTTD they often go bigger, more outlandish, or fantastical, which can happen organically when an actor’s in the role long term.
  • Posts: 2,317
    It's more of a psychological thing. Octopussy and YOLT weren't "perfect endings" either. TB or FYEO probably wouldn't have been either.
  • Posts: 15,997
    It's more of a psychological thing. Octopussy and YOLT weren't "perfect endings" either. TB or FYEO probably wouldn't have been either.

    I'd argue that they would have been better than what we got for ending the actor's tenure. Which may explain why they weren't, at least in the case of TB, FYEO and OP. "It’s working fine, let's do at least one more."
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