Superman: The Man of Tomorrow

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  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 26,191
    Superman vs. The Elite | End Fight Scene

    Good writing.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    It’s weird to look back and see SR was almost 20 years ago. I do feel bad for Routh because I thought he was good casting, but he barely has any dialogue in that film. There’s a criticism of the new film that Superman feels like a guest star in his own film. That’s exactly how I felt about Superman in RETURNS. Where I feel like I got to know Corenswet’s Superman, Routh’s always feels distant and cold. That’s a fault I lay entirely on Singer trying to turn Superman into more of an alien loner. That might have worked for X-MEN, but I don’t think Superman was the right character for that approach.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 26,191
    Agree they did not allow Routh to do much in Superman Returns, Routh had a redemption of sorts in Crisis on Infinite Earths, he has some good dialogue in that crossover.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited July 24 Posts: 858
    The only actual set up in SUPERMAN ‘25 is the bit with
    Supergirl taking back Krypto.
    Otherwise the movie functions as a standalone story. There’s nothing else to really point to where Superman or other DC projects will go. Even the post-credits serve more as cute character moments rather than as teases for future films.

    Would you agree there's too many ancillary characters?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    The only actual set up in SUPERMAN ‘25 is the bit with
    Supergirl taking back Krypto.
    Otherwise the movie functions as a standalone story. There’s nothing else to really point to where Superman or other DC projects will go. Even the post-credits serve more as cute character moments rather than as teases for future films.

    Would you agree there's too many ancillary characters?

    That was a big concern of mine when news broke of the movie casting a ton of superheroes, I worried Superman would get lost in the shuffle. However, I think Gunn actually managed to get the balance just right by treating those supporting characters as just supporting characters. We’re never given much or any backstory of Mr. Terrific, Guy Gardner or Hawkgirl, because this is not their story. The Justice Gang is treated no differently from the Daily Planet staff, in that they serve a basic plot function and are given just enough characterization (with Mr. Terrific and Jimmy being the standouts in their respective groups).
    Agree they did not allow Routh to do much in Superman Returns, Routh had a redemption of sorts in Crisis on Infinite Earths, he has some good dialogue in that crossover.

    I haven’t watched those shows but I’ve heard great things about Routh in LEGENDS OF TOMORROW where he’s allowed to shine in a way SR really didn’t let him. I think the most I’ve seen of him in anything beyond SR was SCOTT PILGRIM and he was great in that. Shows his comedic chops best.

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 26,191
    The only actual set up in SUPERMAN ‘25 is the bit with
    Supergirl taking back Krypto.
    Otherwise the movie functions as a standalone story. There’s nothing else to really point to where Superman or other DC projects will go. Even the post-credits serve more as cute character moments rather than as teases for future films.

    Would you agree there's too many ancillary characters?

    That was a big concern of mine when news broke of the movie casting a ton of superheroes, I worried Superman would get lost in the shuffle. However, I think Gunn actually managed to get the balance just right by treating those supporting characters as just supporting characters. We’re never given much or any backstory of Mr. Terrific, Guy Gardner or Hawkgirl, because this is not their story. The Justice Gang is treated no differently from the Daily Planet staff, in that they serve a basic plot function and are given just enough characterization (with Mr. Terrific and Jimmy being the standouts in their respective groups).
    Agree they did not allow Routh to do much in Superman Returns, Routh had a redemption of sorts in Crisis on Infinite Earths, he has some good dialogue in that crossover.

    I haven’t watched those shows but I’ve heard great things about Routh in LEGENDS OF TOMORROW where he’s allowed to shine in a way SR really didn’t let him. I think the most I’ve seen of him in anything beyond SR was SCOTT PILGRIM and he was great in that. Shows his comedic chops best.

    I watched all of Legends of Tomorrow its one of the better CW shows, Routh was great as Ray Palmer, I bought all the crossover event DVD's they are good fun as a DC fan.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,993
    Superman is far from Superman. Maybe they want to show his being vulnerable but then they don't explore that at all. Superman with Reeve we saw him triumph which made his near drowning in the pool all the more shocking. Here Superman just isn't that super.
    • He loses his first battle in three years...this is told to us and not shown. We don't know how Superman got to the Antarctica. However it happened, Ultraman or Lex didn't feel it was important to chase him or finish him off. Weird that we aren't shown the fight.
    • He heals up and goes back to Metropolis but gets his ass handed to him again. This time the baddie merely flies away even though he has Superman dead to rights and could likely finish the job. But the script needs Superman to live or at least heal so the baddie leaves.
    • Superman steps into defeat the evil alien giant that is attacking Metropolis, but he can't do it without help. The Justice gang take over and disobey Superman and kill the alien.
    • The world turns on Superman, except for the country he helped off screen. This turn comes because of one report by Luthor and after 3 years of Superman being a protector of earth and showing no signs of wanting to dominate the world. Suddenly the majority feel he's out to conquer us. Those are some pretty powerful monkeys that Lex created.
    • Superman then loses again when he meets Ultraman. You would think that Superman would realize that somehow Ultraman knows his moves and change things up, but nope. Plus Lex shouting battleship commands to his lackeys is faster than the time it takes for Superman to counter or attack.
    • The country that flies Superman flags for hope get no Superman, they get an "upgraded" Justice Gang. Does this mean the Justice Gang is more powerful that Superman? Apparently since they did defeat the alien without much help from Superman. Plus Superman has lost 2 fights in the film. the Justice Gang is able to stop the war.
    • In all of this we never really see Superman coming to terms with the fact he is no longer the most powerful metahuman. You would think a hero who has never lost would be a bit off his game but not Superman. He just keeps doing his thing with no doubts.
    • Lets not forget that genius Lex had 2 chances to perhaps kill Superman. Instead he thinks it is better to get the US government on his side, but the government wants Superman to answer questions. Lex seems okay with this, killing a civilian in the process. Even though earlier he stated boldly he wants Superman to die. I guess Lex is good with the government dictating terms. Why wouldn't the government send someone in to question Superman? Why would they allow Lex to be their go-between when the officals stated earlier they didn't trust Lex. How or why would the government allow the death of a civilian to happen? Is Lex so powerful that he can cover all this up?
    • Why exactly did Lex need the US government involved? Who are the people at the camp? LexCorp? Or US government officials? How would the government sign off on Lex taking Superman to a "pocket universe". Wouldn't they investigate the universe and realize between his ex-girlfriends and the monkeys that Lex is un-hinged?
    • Finally how did Superman using his laser/heat vision on the Raptors not kill any of them? We are supposed to believe this bad ass moment left them wounded and none were killed? Isn't that a stretch?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    I prefer this, as this is how Superman was depicted in the 90s animated series. He should be Super, but he shouldn’t be godlike.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited July 29 Posts: 26,191
    The Flash (2023) - Supergirl vs. General Zod Fight Scene | Movieclips

    Great transition, there are some awesome moments in this film.

    Supergirl is fire.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    I’m glad Gunn is letting Andy Muschietti do his Batman film for DCU.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited July 29 Posts: 26,191
    I’m glad Gunn is letting Andy Muschietti do his Batman film for DCU.

    I agree Muschietti has a brilliant understanding of a great shot and emotional depth, The Flash IMO has some of the greatest comic book scenes in recent times.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,801
    Superman has now made over half a billion dollars. That still not "impressive" compared to Avengers: Endgame or some of those rarities, but it's not exactly bad either. I've read (but don't know if it's true) that the film needs 450 mil to break even, so there's that. In any case, you cannot make half a billion dollars without a lot of people showing up for your movie. It's nice to see that there's some interest in this DC relaunch.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 2,024
    I’m glad Gunn is letting Andy Muschietti do his Batman film for DCU.

    I agree Muschietti has a brilliant understanding of a great shot and emotional depth, The Flash IMO has some of the greatest comic book scenes in recent times.

    That looked horrible to me. At least on YouTube. Why are they in a flat wasteland. Why are any humans even there to be at risk? I hate the characterization of the Flash(es). This movie should have never been released for various reasons. I wish the Zod actor, who says he regrets the role, hadn't come back. He should have stood his ground.
  • edited July 30 Posts: 5,654
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Superman has now made over half a billion dollars. That still not "impressive" compared to Avengers: Endgame or some of those rarities, but it's not exactly bad either. I've read (but don't know if it's true) that the film needs 450 mil to break even, so there's that. In any case, you cannot make half a billion dollars without a lot of people showing up for your movie. It's nice to see that there's some interest in this DC relaunch.

    Would it not be more like 650/700 million to break even with advertising costs added? (the film cost, what, 220 million thereabouts? Advertising was an extra 100 million or so more from what I understand. To begin to make profit the film has to do double that amount. Could be wrong though or maybe there's something I'm missing).

    Box office isn't always the biggest indicator of success at any rate, and I actually suspect in hindsight for all the hype/work put into advertising, they weren't expecting this film to break a billion or anything. And yes, ultimately we're dealing with numbers so high - both in terms of what it's made and what they spent on it - there's not really any clear cut way of defining its success, strange as it sounds. It'll have more delayed profitability with merchandise, home media, streaming residuals etc. More importantly it's kickstarted a new DC universe that they can expand upon. That's its win you could argue.

    Is it the biggest financial success? No. Frankly I'd be surprised if it gets to 650 million. Yes, in terms of raw numbers I can imagine a scenario where Fantastic Four beats it this summer (Marvel, for all their flaws, have an established brand that with the right films can get people into the cinema. Corenswet’s Superman isn’t at that point yet, and short of a new Batman film I suspect neither is Gunn’s DC. But they are playing the long game here and there’s no reason it can’t grow).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    Whether it needs to reach $500m, $670m, or $700m, it’s currently the best performing DC film since THE BATMAN, following a string of flops. The way to tell isn’t by what it ultimately made in the long run but how it specifically performed week to week. For example, MOS saw second weekend drop at 64%. That’s not terrible, but it’s not encouraging either. So they pivoted by shoehorning Batman in the next film rather than have MOS get a standalone sequel. At first glance, it looked like it paid off as BVS had an even higher opening and if it had legs it would easily get a billion. However, the second weekend drop was 69%, which is catastrophic. This is why the studio panicked and we saw what happened to JL.

    For Superman ‘25, its second weekend drop was only 53%. That’s extremely impressive and shows that the movie has legs due to word of mouth. THE DARK KNIGHT for example had a 52% drop. And despite THE FANTASTIC FOUR debuting on the third weekend, the drop was still only at 57%.

    Apparently the movie isn’t going to be made available digital for awhile, so it sounds like WB will try to keep it in theaters in order reach $600m. Only time will tell how it fairs for the rest of the summer.
  • Posts: 5,654
    Whether it needs to reach $500m, $670m, or $700m, it’s currently the best performing DC film since THE BATMAN, following a string of flops. The way to tell isn’t by what it ultimately made in the long run but how it specifically performed week to week. For example, MOS saw second weekend drop at 64%. That’s not terrible, but it’s not encouraging either. So they pivoted by shoehorning Batman in the next film rather than have MOS get a standalone sequel. At first glance, it looked like it paid off as BVS had an even higher opening and if it had legs it would easily get a billion. However, the second weekend drop was 69%, which is catastrophic. This is why the studio panicked and we saw what happened to JL.

    For Superman ‘25, its second weekend drop was only 53%. That’s extremely impressive and shows that the movie has legs due to word of mouth. THE DARK KNIGHT for example had a 52% drop. And despite THE FANTASTIC FOUR debuting on the third weekend, the drop was still only at 57%.

    Apparently the movie isn’t going to be made available digital for awhile, so it sounds like WB will try to keep it in theaters in order reach $600m. Only time will tell how it fairs for the rest of the summer.

    Like I said, box office isn't always the best indicator of success here, and it's tempting to get hung up on numbers past a point (especially in the short term which isn't always useful). It's doing fine. Not amazing, but fine. If it's gaining an audience for further instalments that's the main thing. I wouldn't necessarily compare it to previous instalments.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    True, there’s other factors that will determine its success. Seeing what its life will be like on home media/digital will be a huge factor.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,801
    Humble beginnings aren't necessarily bad either. Iron Man made less than 600 mil at the BO, but it had its legs and would soon grow to be revered. (Indeed, BO isn't everything.)
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,993
    Funny thing that Man of Steel made $670 million and the follow up Batman V Superman grossed $874 million. Yet are they viewed as flops? I think there is some cherry picking when it comes to Box Office.

    Look at the Bond franchise DAD made $431.9 million in its run, while GE made $352 million, yet we would say that GE was a better movie. Fewer people saw it in the theatres, should butts in seats be a measure of success?

    It is interesting how BO is used to make the case for failure, then others will use it to say "oh Box Office isn't that important".

    I think it can be an indicator of success but not a defining one.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,833
    thedove wrote: »
    Funny thing that Man of Steel made $670 million and the follow up Batman V Superman grossed $874 million. Yet are they viewed as flops?

    It would be inaccurate to say they’re outright flops. The issue was that they opened big but dropped like bricks in the long run, especially BvS. The worldwide opening for BvS would point to making a billion worldwide, but because the following weeks saw major drops in attendance, it was clear the movie did not have the legs. WB spent a lot more on BvS in terms of budget and marketing.

    When you also factor in its box office and performance with the fact that it was poorly received by both audiences and critics, it’s understandable why WB went into panic mode over JL.

    As for Bond, I don’t think that quite compares because Eon didn’t spend as much on marketing was WB did for DC projects. I can’t recall there ever being breakfast cereal tie ins for 007.
  • Posts: 2,269
    I think Warner is more or less happy, but I'm sure history will repeat itself. We'll have a Batman and Superman team-up before Superman 2.
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