Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 65
    I’ve always said Brosnan’s films were a serious case of diminishing returns - GE is excellent, TND isn’t as good but still a lot of fun, TWINE is somehow much less than the sum of its parts and the less said about DAD the better.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,298
    I always used to say that the Brosnan films went downward towards the bottom of the franchise (DAD). So yes, my ranking is probably still GE > TND > TWINE > DAD. But I'm not so sure any more that there is a real quality difference between the first two...meaning TND might take the upper hand, if only slightly, when I'm in the mood. By the same token, I'm no longer firmly convinced that TWINE is any better than DAD when I think about it. But that's about which one is last and which one is second to last, so it's futile to even really care.
  • Quantum of Solace uses the Bond theme the best out of any Craig era effort (alongside NTTD).

    The Bond Theme is generally used for three reasons:
    1. A quiet action scene without any big fighting or stunts
    2. A loud action scene with big stunts or a big fight (like in TSLWM when the parachute comes up). Could be during the stunt/fight, or could bookend a stunt/fight with a hint of 3.
    3. A scene where Bond comes off as cool; (to sort of certify the Bondness of a moment)

    Generally people enjoy 2; because the loud moments are kind of what makes Bond Bond. Quantum of Solace has 4 action scenes (car chase, boat chase, plane chase, hotel fight) and they don't generally use the Bond theme that much*.

    *Time to Get Out opens and closes with the 4 notes, and the boat chase ends with a pretty bomabstic rendition of the Bond theme.

    However, Quantum not more reserved, but more quiet with the Bond theme. There's where he seduces Fields, which sounds like it could come out of Thunderball. The there's obviously when he sees Fields is dead and escapes from the MI6 men, which probably stands out as the film's most memorable. The theme plays when Greene's left in the desert, and also when Bond walks off into the snow.

    Now obviously QoS uses motifs based on the main theme that require a bit more of a searching ear to discover, but all the more obvious uses are in quieter and less bombastic moments. I don't think some Barry films would outstrip QoS's 4/5 obvious and elsewise silent Bond theme uses.

    In terms of the other Craig films, the Bond theme is used, but in a repetitive sense. The same arrangement is reused quite a bit between Skyfall and Spectre. I think QoS (and NTTD) thus stand unique in this sense; a lot of the Bond theme used originally, albeit in more quiet moments.
  • edited 7:02am Posts: 12,779
    Since I see it often complained about, I might as well add on here that I love the sinking house sequence in CR. "Fall of a House in Venice" is one of my favorite tracks, I find the action really awesome - particularly the electrocution and nail gun bits - and it feels properly symbolic with the house sinking being of course how Bond and Vesper's relationship is crumbling fast and nastily. I really think the more subtle approach regarding Vesper's demise works better for the novel, but likewise the more intense, action-heavy approach the movie goes for complements it better. After all, CR the novel is much less action-packed in general, while the movie has plenty of action and spectacle and honestly would have felt like a big sequence was missing without this climax.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,624
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Since I see it often complained about, I might as well add on here that I love the sinking house sequence in CR. "Fall of a House in Venice" is one of my favorite tracks, I find the action really awesome - particularly the electrocution and nail gun bits - and it feels properly symbolic with the house sinking being of course how Bond and Vesper's relationship is crumbling fast and nastily. I really think the more subtle approach regarding Vesper's demise works better for the novel, but likewise the more intense, action-heavy approach the movie goes for complements it better. After all, CR the novel is much less action-packed in general, while the movie has plenty of action and spectacle and honestly would have felt like a big sequence was missing without this climax.

    I don't disagree with that, which may sound a bit tepid but let me elaborate ;)

    I think CR has one of the best finales in the series. It's a superb action scene in a gorgeous location, suitably having Bond sneaking up behind enemies with his silenecd gun instead of mowing down everyone in sight with a machine gun.

    I have always been in the minority that prefers CR's last third over the the first one, since I am not the biggest fan of the Bond Begins-angle. I also like Bond a lot better in the final part of the film than his overconfident persona of the beginning.

    I do think Vesper's demise is bordering on the overdramatic, though it just restrains itself enough for me to not put that label on it. Something I think NTTD doesn't quite succeed in (but that's another discussion).
  • edited 7:28am Posts: 12,779
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.
  • edited 7:43am Posts: 2,158
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.

    Connery used to have good chemistry with actresses, so I don't think it's a problem of coldness either. The spark was there.

    You could say that his bond enjoyed women. He likes being with them even if he doesn't treat them particularly well.
  • edited 7:52am Posts: 12,779
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.

    Connery used to have good chemistry with actresses, so I don't think it's a problem of coldness either. The spark was there.

    You could say that his bond enjoyed women. He likes being with them even if he doesn't treat them particularly well.

    The chemistry was there, absolutely. When I said cold, I mean he enjoys them for simple pleasure and at a surface level more than as meaningful partners, as you kind of put it. I’d argue all the other 5 Bonds seemed to form more serious attachments to a few of the women they were with and seemed to care about them as people more frequently.
  • Posts: 2,158
    Craig was more like a grouch with a heart of gold.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,311
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.

    Yeah, he's immensely charismatic and cool of course, but Connery's is probably the least human Bond, I tend to think. He has, I feel, the least emotional depth of any of them.
    And when you say he's scary, I think that's probably strongest in Dr No, where he's actually quite an abrasive and humourless person, and really quite cold as you say. I actually think they decided to tone that down a little for FRWL.
  • edited 9:27am Posts: 5,482
    I think a problem with the way they adapted DN is that Bond is mostly one step ahead until he gets captured at Crab Key, to the point he's able to anticipate many of the traps the villains lay out for him. You get less a sense that the has to navigate some dark conspiracy that he doesn't fully understand (unlike the novel he's not at odds with any British officials in Jamaica, for example) but more like he's breezing through most of it. It somewhat makes the Three Blind Mice, Jones, and Dent look a bit... well, incompetent too. It also doesn't give Connery as much to work with in terms of Bond being human, and the script emphasises his coldness due to these decisions.

    With FRWL there's much more a sense he doesn't know how the whole thing is going to pan out. He seems to have genuine affection for Tanya, and there's much more a sense that he's in danger with Grant gaining the upper hand on him. So I agree, I think he's noticeably more human in FRWL.
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