Star Wars (1977 - present)

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    I give it 5/10, four good episodes dragged down by four bad ones.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 17 Posts: 16,211
    I watched the finale; what a weird show. I had no idea what the actual stakes were going into it, two sets of people started fighting but I don't know why, and I wasn't sure who I was supposed to be rooting for as they all seemed awful in their different ways. And it's fine not to have a hero and a villain in a drama show, but in something like this it's just confusing. By the end I wasn't sure what was even happening or why I was supposed to care. Why did Basil the rat tear the spaceship up? Absolutely baffling stuff.
    At least it's a SW show which addresses that Jedi are quite a creepy idea and can't be as infallible and perfect as they seem to promote themselves, that was good. I don't see why everything in this universe seems to revolve around being trained to fight people.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 17 Posts: 8,150
    I think that’s kinda the point, there’s no one to really “root” for in the traditional sense, it’s more of a character study than good vs evil. I was surprised that the show would go this far to depict the Jedi as being such a flawed group, more overtly than the prequels did. The senator that dresses down the one master is not even wrong on how the Jedi being an unchecked organization is an incredible oversight on the part of the Republic, predicting things that would happen a century later.

    Typically in Star Wars it’s very basic good vs evil, but this show really muddies the waters in showing both Jedi and Sith having their own issues. Master Sol makes a ton of horrible decisions and has no redemption because he’s too blinded by his own righteousness. Osha’s turn is more an inevitability because Sol not only killed her mother but dug a hole for himself by lying to her. Funnily, her turn to the dark side makes more sense than Anakin’s but that’s more of an indictment on the prequels than anything else.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    I think that’s kinda the point, there’s no one to really “root” for in the traditional sense, it’s more of a character study than good vs evil.

    Sure, that's fine if they want to go for that, but I think they failed to make me care for anyone involved. Especially with Mae maybe or maybe not being evil- I just lost track. And if I'm not caring about anyone then there aren't any stakes. Nothing feels tragic.
    I was surprised that the show would go this far to depict the Jedi as being such a flawed group, more overtly than the prequels did. The senator that dresses down the one master is not even wrong on how the Jedi being an unchecked organization is an incredible oversight on the part of the Republic, predicting things that would happen a century later.

    Yeah I liked that bit. Quite surprising to get David Harewood in just for that scene, maybe they're planning to have him back if they make more.
    Typically in Star Wars it’s very basic good vs evil, but this show really muddies the waters in showing both Jedi and Sith having their own issues. Master Sol makes a ton of horrible decisions and has no redemption because he’s too blinded by his own righteousness. Osha’s turn is more an inevitability because Sol not only killed her mother but dug a hole for himself by lying to her.

    I guess a problem was that I couldn't see how Sol could have ever thought anything he was doing was the right thing. It wasn't clear why they wanted to take the children away, why he wanted one of them(?!), why they all got their terrifying laser swords out, what importance this 'vergence' has on anything... I just couldn't really sympathise or understand why most of them were acting as they did. And with tragic stories you need to understand.
    Funnily, her turn to the dark side makes more sense than Anakin’s but that’s more of an indictment on the prequels than anything else.

    Ha! Yes that's not hard.
    Really Kylo Ren is everything Anakin should have been: actually believably tortured and, y'know, well-acted.

    I guess her turn sort of makes sense, but to be honest I couldn't entirely follow where she was emotionally.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    I didn’t understand her at first until towards the end. Because of this being Star Wars, I would have assumed she’d stay on the path of good, but we see there’s a darker streak in her that she’s never been able to subside, all leading up to her eventual turn.

    It’s weird to say, I actually didn’t “care” for the individual characters, but I did like the dynamics. I like that when the Jedi call the coven a “cult” it’s supposed to be ironic because truthfully the Jedi might as well be a cult as well. And when they have an opportunity to be truthful and transparent when it actually matters they fall on the side of bureaucracy as if they’re doomed to fall. And they even blame one of their dead masters for crimes he didn’t commit just to cover up!

    I do think a better version of this show would have been like four or five episodes total. My biggest issue is that there’s a ton of padding. Ep 4 is only 27 mins before end credits! They might as well have trimmed that episode down and combine it with Ep 5 as the lead up to the big fight. The two flashback episodes should have just been one condensed episode. Then there’s the first two episodes, which should have been a single feature length episode.

    But I get it. A true properly paced show would have meant Disney couldn’t string along subscribers beyond one subscription period. It’s an issue with a lot of these Disney+ shows. They’re not willing to fork out for ten full hour long episodes like HBO.
  • Posts: 12,436
    Sometime in the next few days I'm going to revisit Lego Star Wars: The Video Game (2005). This one's extremely nostalgic and was a true childhood favorite, and though usually when I want to go back I opt for the superior The Complete Saga (2007), I'm specifically in the mood for the first one in all its janky glory again. It really was revolutionary and amazing for its time, despite all the bugs, and is certain to bring back lots of great memories.

    As far as the movies go, for some reason I've been thinking of The Phantom Menace a bit lately. It's my least favorite of the first six, largely because of its awful pacing. I just really wish that film had been better...
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,946
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    I was thinking about this more and still just don't understand what the makers were intending. Is Osha's journey even supposed to be tragic? At least Anakin's definitely was. Or was the point of the show to elicit some sympathy for the Sith and show that they're just people too?
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,946
    By the end of episode 8 of The Acolyte I just felt all the characters were indecisive evil people devoid of any morality.

    I have no idea what Bazil the tracker was doing, I guess he did what the script needed him to do.

    giphy.webp
    Bazil may as well have been a Sith Lord with his random inexplicable behavior.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 19 Posts: 16,211
    The bit where he sabotaged the ship in the middle of the chase through the planet's rings was inexplicable.

    I actually didn't mind this series for most of the way (although I was concerned about the total lack of stakes) but that last episode seemed on another level of weakness. Storytelling isn't about presenting me with a load of events, you have to give me reasons to care and be invested too: there has to be, y'know: a point.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited July 19 Posts: 24,946
    .
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    mtm wrote: »
    The bit where he sabotaged the ship in the middle of the chase through the planet's rings was inexplicable.

    I read it as him realizing Sol was losing his objectivity in his pursuit, so he sabotaged the ship before Sol would inadvertently crash the ship, as that’s exactly what happened to Mae.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited July 19 Posts: 24,946
    .
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 19 Posts: 16,211
    mtm wrote: »
    The bit where he sabotaged the ship in the middle of the chase through the planet's rings was inexplicable.

    I read it as him realizing Sol was losing his objectivity in his pursuit, so he sabotaged the ship before Sol would inadvertently crash the ship, as that’s exactly what happened to Mae.

    I guess that would make sense, but I didn't see anything in there to suggest that; we're having to fill in blanks. Did you read him as doing that while you were watching it or in retrospect? If we'd seen him looking at a monitor which warned of some calamity or something which Sol was ignoring, that might help to tell the story if that's what they intended. But as I say, I genuinely don't know what the makers' intentions were with this episode, and I'm not trying to be obtuse or anything.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    I realized it within the moment, and Mae’s ship crashing kinda confirmed to me that he was stopping Sol. The thing the finale really illuminated for me was that this might have been the first true instance of the Jedi order having lost their way, putting bureaucracy and politics ahead of what’s right. The right thing for the green woman to do would have been to inform the senate of everything that happened, but she didn’t. She lied, covered up and ruined the reputation of a dead colleague of hers just so that the status quo for the order would remain unchanged. Imagine if the presence of a Sith Lord was actually brought up to the council, then they wouldn’t have been as unprepared as they were during the prequels.

    It does make me want to visit a time period where the Jedi were still principled and aspirational, probably before they became adjacent with the government of the Republic.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 19 Posts: 16,211
    I think if there's one point the series has had which I've appreciated, it's that the Jedi are compromised and suspicious; and it's shown that from the very beginning, which I think is good. Especially as I'm someone who think they've always been extremely creepy.
    So from that my guess is that it's not supposed to be a tragedy of Osha falling to the dark side, but more a portrayal of how the Jedi aren't all good and the Sith aren't all bad. But if that is the intention it's very muddled.

    The only character I would be interested in seeing again would be Qimir as he has an interesting presence and seems to have some depth. Nobody else is interesting to me.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    They’re definitely gonna delve more into Qimir, which I look forward to.
    Nobody else is interesting to me.

    To be fair most of the cast got killed off lol. That leaves a lot of room for more characters to enter the stage.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,710
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,340
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if there's one point the series has had which I've appreciated, it's that the Jedi are compromised and suspicious; and it's shown that from the very beginning, which I think is good. Especially as I'm someone who think they've always been extremely creepy.
    So from that my guess is that it's not supposed to be a tragedy of Osha falling to the dark side, but more a portrayal of how the Jedi aren't all good and the Sith aren't all bad. But if that is the intention it's very muddled.

    The only character I would be interested in seeing again would be Qimir as he has an interesting presence and seems to have some depth. Nobody else is interesting to me.

    Interesting that you found the Jedi to be creepy. There has definitely been a change in how the Jedi are portrayed in more recent films and shows.

    Luke was bitter and very much against teaching others in TLJ. That was not the Luke I grew up with and it took some getting used to a positive, hopeful hero being a disillusioned and bitter man.

    I am not sure where that will leave the movie centered around Rey. She has claimed the Skywalker name and it would seem she will be teaching new people. Will we see her rename the Jedi to something else?

    The days of white hatted heroes and black hatted villains seem to be long gone so I guess that is why we have introduced these Jedi who don't always do the right thing.

    The announcements from D23 look like a mixed bag. Not sure the Mandalorian movie will be as well received now as it would have been a few years ago when the show was a hot property. It will all come down to the writing. To say the Acolyte was unevenly written is an understatement.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited August 12 Posts: 4,544
    thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if there's one point the series has had which I've appreciated, it's that the Jedi are compromised and suspicious; and it's shown that from the very beginning, which I think is good. Especially as I'm someone who think they've always been extremely creepy.
    So from that my guess is that it's not supposed to be a tragedy of Osha falling to the dark side, but more a portrayal of how the Jedi aren't all good and the Sith aren't all bad. But if that is the intention it's very muddled.

    The only character I would be interested in seeing again would be Qimir as he has an interesting presence and seems to have some depth. Nobody else is interesting to me.

    Interesting that you found the Jedi to be creepy. There has definitely been a change in how the Jedi are portrayed in more recent films and shows.

    Luke was bitter and very much against teaching others in TLJ. That was not the Luke I grew up with and it took some getting used to a positive, hopeful hero being a disillusioned and bitter man.

    I am not sure where that will leave the movie centered around Rey. She has claimed the Skywalker name and it would seem she will be teaching new people. Will we see her rename the Jedi to something else?

    The days of white hatted heroes and black hatted villains seem to be long gone so I guess that is why we have introduced these Jedi who don't always do the right thing.

    The announcements from D23 look like a mixed bag. Not sure the Mandalorian movie will be as well received now as it would have been a few years ago when the show was a hot property. It will all come down to the writing. To say the Acolyte was unevenly written is an understatement.

    Yes, I agree with most of your opinions both @mtm and @thedove Star Wars definitely can make people have interesting viewpoints! It sounds like the depressed Luke was something GL was always planning for. Rey might be taking away what SW fans thought should be (perhaps rightfully including Mark Hamill himself) his storyline. But, everyone on the crew side said Episode 8 should be a shocker. It worked in some ways and less in others.

    As for the Rey movie, I'm a bit surprised (and nervous) about D23 not announcing more SW material. I know that I'm one the few people who like Rey and in particular Daisy Ridley, and I'm looking forward to her movie, as long as JJ Abrams and Damon Lindelof (who I know helped write parts of the movie, and I'm happy that he was not so quietly to leave) are involved. There are better writers out for SW. I'm happy that it will not (hopefully) go back to the past. Although, I hope Luke, and other Jedi make appearances as Force Ghosts.

    I haven't seen the Acolyte yet, and I really don't want to. Not just because of your reviews. It just doesn't look right to me, in more ways than one. I think SW works better as movies, books and videogames mostly for me, honestly. It takes A LOT for me to get into a TV series nowadays, The Mandalorian is a rare exception to this for me. Obi-Wan and Boba Fett should have been movies, in particular if they don't get 2nd seasons.

    Speaking of The Mandalorian movie, I'm happy that it is filming. I wish more would have been revealed, but I trust Jon Favreau directing. He is more hit than miss, thankfully. I hope we get more news soon. At least the cast list. I still am hoping that Patty Jenkins will write and direct Rogue Squadron, I trust her and think the idea truly has the potential to honor the past while moving forward in ideas and the era after the sequels. I hope that Taika Waititi keeps his trademark humor down on his movie, and I'm still curious what he does. As for Shawn Levy, I'm happy he's trying something different: https://insidethemagic.net/2024/08/from-deadpool-to-dagobah-shawn-levy-talks-new-star-wars-film-zg1/
    Dawn of the Jedi does hold promise as it seems that it has been on Lucasfilm's production for a while. James Mangold and Beau Williom are talented, as is David S. Goyer who wrote a draft. We'll see what happens with Lando and Rian Johnson's trilogy. I'll generally give SW a chance as much as James Bond.

    Also, happy 80th birthday to the Emperor himself, Ian McDiarmid. He would have made a great Bond villain.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    Luke isn’t wrong in TLJ when he craps on the Jedi as being a failure. As they are presented in the prequels, they’re absolutely creepy and uninspiring as so called heroes. Too caught up in bureaucracy and politics, their unhealthy stance on “attachments” that they end up bottling their emotions rather than actually mastering them.

    The hope in ROTJ was that Luke would reject that approach. That he would start a new order that doesn’t shun emotions and attachments. That moment where he tosses the lightsaber aside and refuses to give into the emperor because he believed there was still good in his father should have been an indicator of change.

    But then THE MANDALORIAN/BOBA FETT shows reintroduce him as a creepy Jedi like from the prequels, giving Grogu the ultimatum of either giving up his “attachment” to Mando or train as a Jedi. What the hell?! That is absolute BS after what we saw of him in ROTJ where he risked everything to save his father. That just makes him a hypocrite, and all he’s doing is rebuilding a flawed order from the prequels rather than starting a new Jedi Order of his own.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited August 13 Posts: 4,544
    Luke isn’t wrong in TLJ when he craps on the Jedi as being a failure. As they are presented in the prequels, they’re absolutely creepy and uninspiring as so called heroes. Too caught up in bureaucracy and politics, their unhealthy stance on “attachments” that they end up bottling their emotions rather than actually mastering them.

    The hope in ROTJ was that Luke would reject that approach. That he would start a new order that doesn’t shun emotions and attachments. That moment where he tosses the lightsaber aside and refuses to give into the emperor because he believed there was still good in his father should have been an indicator of change.

    But then THE MANDALORIAN/BOBA FETT shows reintroduce him as a creepy Jedi like from the prequels, giving Grogu the ultimatum of either giving up his “attachment” to Mando or train as a Jedi. What the hell?! That is absolute BS after what we saw of him in ROTJ where he risked everything to save his father. That just makes him a hypocrite, and all he’s doing is rebuilding a flawed order from the prequels rather than starting a new Jedi Order of his own.

    I agree with you. Rey will probably get a similar story arc. In general, SW is like Bond for me: most ideas are good. It’s how they are executed. I’m generally happy with Disney SW movies, and I can’t wait for more. At least TMAG is filming, with more projects to be developed soon. Also, it sounds like we’re going to see more Rey on the screen, according to rumors. I’m ok with that, as long as Daisy Ridley (who was recently diagnosed with Grave’s disease), is still playing her.

    Also, Patty Jenkins’ Rogue Squadron movie was supposed to be released December 2023. So they weee truly working on it. So it might be a bit longer in development than we realize. They wouldn’t have scheduled that date if they weren’t satisfied. This is all just me thinking. But some things are unqine to ignore. In particular, there will be no Wonder Woman 3. I wish Lucasfilm the best of success, they are the Star Wars equivalent of EON!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 13 Posts: 16,211
    thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if there's one point the series has had which I've appreciated, it's that the Jedi are compromised and suspicious; and it's shown that from the very beginning, which I think is good. Especially as I'm someone who think they've always been extremely creepy.
    So from that my guess is that it's not supposed to be a tragedy of Osha falling to the dark side, but more a portrayal of how the Jedi aren't all good and the Sith aren't all bad. But if that is the intention it's very muddled.

    The only character I would be interested in seeing again would be Qimir as he has an interesting presence and seems to have some depth. Nobody else is interesting to me.

    Interesting that you found the Jedi to be creepy. There has definitely been a change in how the Jedi are portrayed in more recent films and shows.

    Weren't they creepy right from Return of the Jedi? Luke turns up at the beginning of that all dressed in black and being serious and scary, and as Python says, he basically rejects that by the end of the film. Then the prequels showed them to be a sinister mind-controlling police force who carry only weapons which will maim people for life at best. I think they're a really unpleasant idea and if there was one good thing about Acolyte it was that it leant into that a bit.

    That Skeleton Crew thing is a Spielberg 80s film mixed with Star Wars is it? I feel like we've had enough Amblin pastiches with suburban kids on BMXs over the years now (and Hover BMXs count! :) ).
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,340
    Looks like Rogue Squadron is anything but a sure thing

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/patty-jenkins-star-wars-rogue-squadron-1235852540/

    At least it's in development and she is working on the script. Interesting to see what comes of it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,544
    thedove wrote: »
    Looks like Rogue Squadron is anything but a sure thing

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/patty-jenkins-star-wars-rogue-squadron-1235852540/

    At least it's in development and she is working on the script. Interesting to see what comes of it.

    Yes, it is unique. As George Lucas said to describe Star Wars in one word himself: Unpredictable.



    A pre-Special Edition interview.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited August 17 Posts: 24,946
    Just watched The Rise of Skywalker for the first time in a few years and thoroughly enjoyed it, I was surprised how emotionally invested I was during this watch, I think it is the best of the sequel trilogy because of the emotional beats, most credit goes to Daisy I like her. Daisy has a kindness and honestly that really does carry the film.

    For the first time I ignored all the logical issues and there are a lot and just went with the film as a cinematic experience,

    TROS technically is very good and I love the score and sound design it is amazing listening in Dolby Atmos. I am surprised I never bought this score I only have TFA score from this trilogy, I think for many years TLJ really did put me in a negative frame of mind with Star Wars.

    TROS is so far beyond the likes of the god awful rubbish we get now like The Acolyte, at this stage I would welcome JJ return to do another film because he kind of gets it, there are some good visual story telling moments in this film.

    Every time Billy Dee was on screen I had a broad smile especially when co piloting the Falcon with Chewie, I also find Babu Frik hilarious. That was a really good watch, the film has gone up in my honest opinion.

    The Emperor chewing up the scenery is always fun, I do like the crazier elements in this film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,115
    @Fire_and_Ice_Returns
    I am so happy to find a fellow TROS fan.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,946
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Fire_and_Ice_Returns
    I am so happy to find a fellow TROS fan.

    It almost makes up for TLJ lol, those two films really are binary opposites I find TLJ joyless and at least TROS is fun has heart and feels like Star Wars.

    The only scene in TLJ I actually thought it resembled Star Wars is when the Falcon showed up briefly on the planet Crait mainly down to Williams excellent theme from the original movie..
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    The hate that TROS gets baffles me. Don't get me wrong, it's not a hugely inspired film and feels slightly hollow, but it is a Star Wars film and does everything you'd want a Star Wars film to do, it's absolutely fine. It actually has characters and feels like a proper movie, which already makes it better than any of the prequels for my money.
    I also agree re: TLJ. Yes, it's more original (in a way, although it's really just a riff on everything we've done before too) but it's also leaden and where TFA had a lovely, light breezy wit and sense of fun, TLJ all feels forced and unfunny. It just bores me: Star Wars should be in space, not on one boring island in Ireland.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,150
    Funnily, those are the kind of sentiments many had when ESB was still relatively new. That compared to the 1977 original it wasn’t as fun, kind of dark and dour, and ends on a down note. 20 years later its rep had risen to be regarded as the best of the trilogy. And now we see a generation that grew up with the prequels that not only hold them up as cherished films but will argue that it’s ROTS that’s the best of the saga. I’ll be interested in how the sequel trilogy, especially TLJ holds up when we reach 2035.

    TROS is a fun breezy film in terms of execution, but it’s creatively lazy in such a way it’s kind of terrible, which is why it sits right at the bottom of the OT and ST films for me, yet well above the prequels because at least has a pulse.
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