Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited January 20 Posts: 990
    QoS is what people thought LTK was. A generic action movie.

    But LTK had a bit of Thunderball's flavor.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,836
    mtm wrote: »
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.

    Don't forget about the sharks. 😉 And a guy named Felix.
  • Posts: 7,506
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.

    Don't forget about the sharks. 😉 And a guy named Felix.

    You mean the charcarodon charcariases? ;)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,110
    Feyador wrote: »
    As a consequence, perhaps, the series retreated into nostaghia with SF. Unless we're meant to see Bardem as Assange, as you suggest, even in part. Someone perhaps more hero than villain for me. Ditto Snowden. If so, how are we to understand the series pivoting dramatically, even schizophrenically, with SP and its plot involving omniscient government surveillance and extrajudicial assassinations. With all the attention played to the Blofeld's brother aspect, most seem not to have paid it the attention it deserves.
    Here's what Mendes said about it, back in 2015:
    There’s one shot at the end of Spectre of a Union Jack fluttering over Whitehall, which is rather ragged and has seen better days, which feels like England to me. Those are the places that I put what I feel, little moments where, well it’s still sad on some level, and yet we’re still here. You know we don’t have what we used to, and yet some of it remains. And M has a line, Ralph’s M has a line in Spectre you know when Andrew Scott’s C says to him, “Face it, you don’t matter anymore,” and M says, “Maybe I don’t but something has to.” And that’s the way I feel about this country sometimes, and a lot of that has gone in there along with my concerns about post-Assange world that we live in in Skyfall and we were obsessing about three years ago, and the post-Snowden world we live in now, which is why we put all the stuff about surveillance into this movie. So you know there’s enough I think, I hope, of the real political landscape to inform it, but at the same time you have to, you’re telling a wonderful piece of escapism too and you have to embrace that part of it.
    https://www.bafta.org/media-centre/transcripts/bafta-a-life-in-pictures-sam-mendes

    So I don't think we're meant to see Bardem as a direct mirror of Assange, but more as a symptom of a world turned upside down by Assange's revelations and political use of internet. Moreover, even if he considers that these films must be pieces of escapism, Mendes recognises that they have a political dimension and that they reflect the world which is contemporary to them.

    Regarding Quantum of Solace, while it may have felt more Le Carré than Fleming, I don't think it has much to do with the film's mixed reception. I have the impression that the film was criticised more for its editing, its action scenes, the overall rhythm and the lack of certain iconic Bond elements. One could even say that, by being too focused on the action, the film does not have time to develop its antagonists and its geopolitical dimension that thus become fuzzy.

    To me, it felt more Graham Greene, particularly the Felix scenes.
  • Posts: 990
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.

    Don't forget about the sharks. 😉 And a guy named Felix.

    Underwater scenes too.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 586
    mtm wrote: »
    I was watching Andrew Ellard's video essay on it again the other day, and he suggested that the film would be better if the gunbarrel opened on the Aston arriving in Sienna, Bond getting White out of the boot, the interrogation, chase after Mitchell, and start the titles on Bond shooting at camera and killing Mitchell. Because then you have a setup, you have some stakes, you're drawn into the story and the following action scene means something. Fun though it is as an isolated bit of action, the car chase doesn't do any that and for my money just doesn't work as an opening of a movie- you can't skip that stuff when you're making a film. We don't know White's in the boot; there's no stakes or any character story there. The M/Mitchell scene has tension and stakes because we're introduced to them.

    They could've, alternatively, had Bond shoot Mitchell through the gunbarrel, like this:

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    echo wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    As a consequence, perhaps, the series retreated into nostaghia with SF. Unless we're meant to see Bardem as Assange, as you suggest, even in part. Someone perhaps more hero than villain for me. Ditto Snowden. If so, how are we to understand the series pivoting dramatically, even schizophrenically, with SP and its plot involving omniscient government surveillance and extrajudicial assassinations. With all the attention played to the Blofeld's brother aspect, most seem not to have paid it the attention it deserves.
    Here's what Mendes said about it, back in 2015:
    There’s one shot at the end of Spectre of a Union Jack fluttering over Whitehall, which is rather ragged and has seen better days, which feels like England to me. Those are the places that I put what I feel, little moments where, well it’s still sad on some level, and yet we’re still here. You know we don’t have what we used to, and yet some of it remains. And M has a line, Ralph’s M has a line in Spectre you know when Andrew Scott’s C says to him, “Face it, you don’t matter anymore,” and M says, “Maybe I don’t but something has to.” And that’s the way I feel about this country sometimes, and a lot of that has gone in there along with my concerns about post-Assange world that we live in in Skyfall and we were obsessing about three years ago, and the post-Snowden world we live in now, which is why we put all the stuff about surveillance into this movie. So you know there’s enough I think, I hope, of the real political landscape to inform it, but at the same time you have to, you’re telling a wonderful piece of escapism too and you have to embrace that part of it.
    https://www.bafta.org/media-centre/transcripts/bafta-a-life-in-pictures-sam-mendes

    So I don't think we're meant to see Bardem as a direct mirror of Assange, but more as a symptom of a world turned upside down by Assange's revelations and political use of internet. Moreover, even if he considers that these films must be pieces of escapism, Mendes recognises that they have a political dimension and that they reflect the world which is contemporary to them.

    Regarding Quantum of Solace, while it may have felt more Le Carré than Fleming, I don't think it has much to do with the film's mixed reception. I have the impression that the film was criticised more for its editing, its action scenes, the overall rhythm and the lack of certain iconic Bond elements. One could even say that, by being too focused on the action, the film does not have time to develop its antagonists and its geopolitical dimension that thus become fuzzy.

    To me, it felt more Graham Greene, particularly the Felix scenes.

    Very much so, yeah; 'that's why they eat the peppers'!
    mtm wrote: »
    I was watching Andrew Ellard's video essay on it again the other day, and he suggested that the film would be better if the gunbarrel opened on the Aston arriving in Sienna, Bond getting White out of the boot, the interrogation, chase after Mitchell, and start the titles on Bond shooting at camera and killing Mitchell. Because then you have a setup, you have some stakes, you're drawn into the story and the following action scene means something. Fun though it is as an isolated bit of action, the car chase doesn't do any that and for my money just doesn't work as an opening of a movie- you can't skip that stuff when you're making a film. We don't know White's in the boot; there's no stakes or any character story there. The M/Mitchell scene has tension and stakes because we're introduced to them.

    They could've, alternatively, had Bond shoot Mitchell through the gunbarrel, like this:


    Yeah, I guess I kind of just don't know why that would happen there, but it would work, certainly.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,836
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.

    Don't forget about the sharks. 😉 And a guy named Felix.

    Underwater scenes too.

    There are palm trees, underwater scenes and sharks in TSWLM too. Not a guy named Felix but a clear reference to Tracy. So LTK has a TSWLM flavor too? We're grasping at straws here.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 20 Posts: 15,580
    Deke doesn't need to have a coherent argument; their thing is to find a one sentence way of disagreeing with anyone and to post that. The sky is blue? But Deke watched an old film made in b/w where it was grey.
    Engaging goes nowhere.
    Sorry, I normally just ignore but I guess I'm just a bit tired tonight. I won't say any more.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited January 20 Posts: 4,423
    LALD has underwear scenes, sharks and Felix played by Hedison. Beat that @DarthDimi!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,836
    royale65 wrote: »
    LALD has underwear scenes, sharks and Felix played by Hedison. Beat that @DarthDimi!

    Wow, you're right! And they took story elements from the same book, no less. So yes, LTK and LALD are positively tied. ;-)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,136
    James Bond is also in all of those films. Case closed.
  • Posts: 7,506
    royale65 wrote: »
    LALD has underwear scenes, sharks and Felix played by Hedison. Beat that @DarthDimi!

    They are very much tied. They both have an action scene containing large driving vehicles, an action scene containing planes, an action scene on water and has drug traffic as an important element in the plot. They both are exclusively set in North America with a fictitious country involved. They are veeery different in tone though... :P
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    edited January 20 Posts: 586
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    As a consequence, perhaps, the series retreated into nostaghia with SF. Unless we're meant to see Bardem as Assange, as you suggest, even in part. Someone perhaps more hero than villain for me. Ditto Snowden. If so, how are we to understand the series pivoting dramatically, even schizophrenically, with SP and its plot involving omniscient government surveillance and extrajudicial assassinations. With all the attention played to the Blofeld's brother aspect, most seem not to have paid it the attention it deserves.
    Here's what Mendes said about it, back in 2015:
    There’s one shot at the end of Spectre of a Union Jack fluttering over Whitehall, which is rather ragged and has seen better days, which feels like England to me. Those are the places that I put what I feel, little moments where, well it’s still sad on some level, and yet we’re still here. You know we don’t have what we used to, and yet some of it remains. And M has a line, Ralph’s M has a line in Spectre you know when Andrew Scott’s C says to him, “Face it, you don’t matter anymore,” and M says, “Maybe I don’t but something has to.” And that’s the way I feel about this country sometimes, and a lot of that has gone in there along with my concerns about post-Assange world that we live in in Skyfall and we were obsessing about three years ago, and the post-Snowden world we live in now, which is why we put all the stuff about surveillance into this movie. So you know there’s enough I think, I hope, of the real political landscape to inform it, but at the same time you have to, you’re telling a wonderful piece of escapism too and you have to embrace that part of it.
    https://www.bafta.org/media-centre/transcripts/bafta-a-life-in-pictures-sam-mendes

    So I don't think we're meant to see Bardem as a direct mirror of Assange, but more as a symptom of a world turned upside down by Assange's revelations and political use of internet. Moreover, even if he considers that these films must be pieces of escapism, Mendes recognises that they have a political dimension and that they reflect the world which is contemporary to them.

    Regarding Quantum of Solace, while it may have felt more Le Carré than Fleming, I don't think it has much to do with the film's mixed reception. I have the impression that the film was criticised more for its editing, its action scenes, the overall rhythm and the lack of certain iconic Bond elements. One could even say that, by being too focused on the action, the film does not have time to develop its antagonists and its geopolitical dimension that thus become fuzzy.

    To me, it felt more Graham Greene, particularly the Felix scenes.

    Very much so, yeah; 'that's why they eat the peppers'!
    mtm wrote: »
    I was watching Andrew Ellard's video essay on it again the other day, and he suggested that the film would be better if the gunbarrel opened on the Aston arriving in Sienna, Bond getting White out of the boot, the interrogation, chase after Mitchell, and start the titles on Bond shooting at camera and killing Mitchell. Because then you have a setup, you have some stakes, you're drawn into the story and the following action scene means something. Fun though it is as an isolated bit of action, the car chase doesn't do any that and for my money just doesn't work as an opening of a movie- you can't skip that stuff when you're making a film. We don't know White's in the boot; there's no stakes or any character story there. The M/Mitchell scene has tension and stakes because we're introduced to them.

    They could've, alternatively, had Bond shoot Mitchell through the gunbarrel, like this:


    Yeah, I guess I kind of just don't know why that would happen there, but it would work, certainly.

    It looks cool. That's enough for me. I used to be very rigid about how the gunbarrel is used, but these days I welcome experimentation.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    mtm wrote: »
    Deke doesn't need to have a coherent argument; their thing is to find a one sentence way of disagreeing with anyone and to post that. The sky is blue? But Deke watched an old film made in b/w where it was grey.
    Engaging goes nowhere.
    Sorry, I normally just ignore but I guess I'm just a bit tired tonight. I won't say any more.

    You may be tired @mtm , but their schtick is getting tiresome and you nailed it, lol….
  • To play devils advocate here, Deke isn’t entirely inaccurate in pointing out a few of the similarities between TB and LTK. He just didn’t bother going into more detail about what he meant. I think Lupe and Domino are pretty similar in that both are “kept women” who do unfortunately suffer from the heinous deeds the villains can inflict upon them.

    But the similarities end there for the most part.
  • Posts: 990
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.

    Don't forget about the sharks. 😉 And a guy named Felix.

    Underwater scenes too.

    There are palm trees, underwater scenes and sharks in TSWLM too. Not a guy named Felix but a clear reference to Tracy. So LTK has a TSWLM flavor too? We're grasping at straws here.

    Nothing is more Bondian than underwater stuff , that's my point.
  • TuxedoTuxedo Europe
    Posts: 257
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It had some palm trees in it, sure.

    Don't forget about the sharks. 😉 And a guy named Felix.

    Underwater scenes too.

    There are palm trees, underwater scenes and sharks in TSWLM too. Not a guy named Felix but a clear reference to Tracy. So LTK has a TSWLM flavor too? We're grasping at straws here.

    Nothing is more Bondian than underwater stuff , that's my point.

    That and ski chases.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 20 Posts: 1,615
    Yeah, even before any action, a snowy look already evokes the Bond feel.
    Also, an inventive chase scene whether foot or vehicular, that looks different from other action films, is another Bondian thing.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,610
    Yeah, even before any action, a snowy look already evokes the Bond feel.
    Also, an inventive chase scene whether foot or vehicular, that looks different from other action films, is another Bondian thing.

    Couldn't agree more mate.
    I hope the next film has a snowy sequence. It always adds tension for some reason
  • edited January 21 Posts: 990
    To play devils advocate here, Deke isn’t entirely inaccurate in pointing out a few of the similarities between TB and LTK. He just didn’t bother going into more detail about what he meant. I think Lupe and Domino are pretty similar in that both are “kept women” who do unfortunately suffer from the heinous deeds the villains can inflict upon them.

    But the similarities end there for the most part.

    I'm not inaccurate. Period.

    I don't know which movie is hated here. TB or LTK? Because I don't undestand the controversy.
    Yeah, even before any action, a snowy look already evokes the Bond feel.
    Also, an inventive chase scene whether foot or vehicular, that looks different from other action films, is another Bondian thing.

    Yeah, It's the same with the underwater stuff. It's pretty Bondian.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 828
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Yeah, even before any action, a snowy look already evokes the Bond feel.
    Also, an inventive chase scene whether foot or vehicular, that looks different from other action films, is another Bondian thing.

    Couldn't agree more mate.
    I hope the next film has a snowy sequence. It always adds tension for some reason

    I think the big snowscape instantly shows you that Bond is isolated in a hostile alien environment far removed from the everyday lives of many of us - it's just incredibly visual. One of the most important aspects of these stories is, as Joseph Campbell puts it, "A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder", and the big, empty snowscape is a great contrast to M's cosy office in London (the ordinary world) where Bond recieves his mission. It's really easy to see in longshots that Bond is alone and being chased by a pursuing team that outnumbers him, and again, that's great, is shows the audience what it needs to know without having to resort to dialogue.

    The other reason it is so Bondian is that it's incredibly expensive and difficult to shoot in big snow, what with the isolation, the cold, and the fact you want your snow looking virginal until your characters mark it - you do not want visible tracks from the camera crew and the stunt team. I don't think many productions have the time or money to do it well, the whole thing must be a nightmare.
  • I'd do a Treveleyan type plot but with an older actor who would have been a mentor, which is what I understand was the original intention with Goldeneye.

    He wouldn't be running an arms group but he would've been a double 0 when Bond was starting out
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,955
    Isn’t that not only what GE did, but without the mentor, but also Silva in SF.
    Bond going up against a former agent.
    It’s not a bad idea, and it does have scope.
  • edited January 21 Posts: 520
    I find it astonishing that 2 years after the release of NTTD and well over 4 years after the filming of NTTD ended we still have no idea who the director of BOND 26 will be. Remember, Cambell was first rumoured to direct BOND 21 only 8 months after the release of DAD and then rumoured again 15 months after the release of DAD. https://www.mi6-hq.com/news/index.php?itemid=1173
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    I find it astonishing that 2 years after the release of NTTD and well over 4 years after the filming of NTTD ended we still have no idea who the director of BOND 26 will be. Remember, Cambell was first rumoured to direct BOND 21 only 8 months after the release of DAD and then rumoured again 15 months after the release of DAD. https://www.mi6-hq.com/news/index.php?itemid=1173

    Wow, that’s interesting. Had no idea they were circling Campbell, or at least considering him very early on… Well, each project is different and each recast is different. I think we fans seek patterns, when in reality, if there are any, most would be coincidental.

    B26 will follow the route it needs to follow and I doubt that EoN and partners are worried about how they moved on from Pierce Brosnan.

    They’re moving on from a different actor who, no matter what some want to believe, ended up being a very popular choice (probably the most consistently loved Bond since Connery). From a story perspective, they also gave the Craig Era a complete beginning, middle and end (literally); we saw him as a youngish novice, full of arrogance, who developed into middle age and then into a retired father figure who sacrificed his life for his family… They covered significant character ground, which is something that was never really explored with James Bond before (outside of his shortly lived marriage).

    They have to now figure out what kind of story they will develop for the new person— whoever he may be. The audience expects some kind of depth, but the previous guy covered a lot of interesting ground.

    They need to give some meat to the role (not only do audiences expect it now, but I’m sure the next actor will as well), without repeating what came in the last 15 years…

    I’m one of the ones who is no rush and would rather they get the story right first (whether I’ll like the story or not is a moot point; they need to figure out the story they want to tell and tell it as best as they can, while also giving a worldwide audience what they expect out of a Bond picture)…

  • I’m not sure if I’d call Craig the most consistently loved Bond since Connery, seeing as how there was always a subset of people both in the Bond fandom and the General Audience as well, who saw Craig’s Bond as being a bit too dour/depressing. Heck as of right now it appears that Craig is being thrown under the bus by some circles much like how Dalton, and Brosnan were cast aside following their tenures.

    I’m worried about Amazon’s influence. EON may be okay taking time to figure out the direction of the series, but Amazon probably won’t be as lenient. I can imagine that if EON are still in the same boat two years from now, that won’t please Amazon very much. They’ve spent $8.5 Billion Dollars in acquiring MGM, and the whispers seem to indicate they mainly did that to acquire the Bond series. There’s only so many seasons of “007 - Road to a Million” they’re willing to green light before they want to see a real return on their investment. I can definitely imagine Amazon getting impatient with the perceived lack of progress, and forcing their way into EON’s creative process as a means of speeding things up. I’m also quite nervous that we’ll potentially get more of the “studio interference” that plagued the Brosnan years.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    @007ClassicBondFan … Craig is considered the most popular Bond since Connery. There’s been a vocal minority that has always despised him, and have always tried to throw him under the bus. But his box office, reviews and audience reception has consistently been the strongest since Connery.

    And Amazon bought MGM not for Bond, but for the ENTIRE library! Bond, and anything else they can reimagine, reboot and remake is the cherry on the top. But it’s the ENTIRE catalogue/library that made this deal worth making, so I’m not sure what news you heard?
  • Posts: 1,043
    In a way I think they've already been doing that in the last couple of movies; Bond and Madeleine listening to vinyl records in Matera, the consistent reappearance of the DB5, the Rolls Royce in SP, Blofeld and Safin's lairs, the MI6 offices, Craig's style being inspired by Steve McQueen, etc.

    If you got rid of the mobile phones in Casino Royale, I'd say much of that movie is very retro too. I really liked that whole vibe.
    I think all four of the Daniel Crag James Bond movies have a muted timeless feel. I appreciated that.
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