Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 1,043
    A 'f*ck you' to the character?
    To me the opposite was and is true.

    I know what you mean. Lots of people saw it a fitting end to Craig's 'timeline'. They certainly gave him a noble, heroic death.
    I'd just have preferred they didn't kill him off at all, but there 'ya go. I don't think it's a problem for modern audiences anyway.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 3,291
    echo wrote: »
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.
    [T]here's still the problem of Killing Felix, killing Blofeld, Bond the dad

    Fleming did two of these things, and almost did the third.

    Killing Blofeld was needed to wrap up the novel trilogy, and it was well earned - a gripping, bloody battle too - nothing like the pathetic on-screen version.

    Bond being a dad was almost written in passing the way Fleming did it, and also something Bond himself was not aware of. Again, nothing like the terrible onscreen version.

    Felix almost dying - yes, and a great onscreen adaptation too in LTK. They got this one 100% right.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    I think they should have just killed Felix in LTK, rather than effectively fridging Della, who doesn't even get mentioned again apart from her name on the lighter.
  • mtm wrote: »
    I think they should have just killed Felix in LTK, rather than effectively fridging Della, who doesn't even get mentioned again apart from her name on the lighter.

    The only part about LTK I don't like is how cheery Felix is at the very end, forgetting about his recent wife's death.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,448
    mtm wrote: »
    I think they should have just killed Felix in LTK, rather than effectively fridging Della, who doesn't even get mentioned again apart from her name on the lighter.

    The only part about LTK I don't like is how cheery Felix is at the very end, forgetting about his recent wife's death.

    Well, it's only the same as with Bond right?
    And both are bad in different ways, Felix cheering after the death of his wife, then so Bond treating Blofeld normally (DAF) and fun (FYEO) after the death of his wife, just feeling nothing.

    It's when back in the classic era where they didn't know how to execute grief and the scenes of people losing their loved ones.

    Heck, is it the same with Bond being cheery minutes after the death of Paris Carver in TND? He's being playful in that car chase and that's right after he'd witnessed Paris Carver's death.

    It's only until the Craig Era where they've started addressing things like this.
  • Posts: 3,365
    Yes, Felix talking about going fishing with Bond and giving the nurse little smiles is very strange to see. Even just a brief solemn moment held on Felix after he hangs up could have worked.

    But then again it's worth saying that Felix is actually quite a cheery, resiliant character in the novels. Admittedly he never has to witness the murder of his wife, but one gets the sense that most men having gone through the ordeal he did - losing limbs, having to give up a job in the CIA - would be in a much worse place. Instead he takes a job as a private detective, continues to work on an unofficial basis with the CIA, and seems very much the same guy you'd want to have a beer with.

    I hope going forward we get to see a version of Felix Leiter who has already gone through his ordeal, and perhaps isn't an official CIA agent. I think there'd be something more impactful about seeing a slightly older Felix with obvious injuries, who is very much a man with a zest for life and a useful friend to Bond.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,448
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yes, Felix talking about going fishing with Bond and giving the nurse little smiles is very strange to see. Even just a brief solemn moment held on Felix after he hangs up could have worked.

    But then again it's worth saying that Felix is actually quite a cheery, resiliant character in the novels. Admittedly he never has to witness the murder of his wife, but one gets the sense that most men having gone through the ordeal he did - losing limbs, having to give up a job in the CIA - would be in a much worse place. Instead he takes a job as a private detective, continues to work on an unofficial basis with the CIA, and seems very much the same guy you'd want to have a beer with.

    I hope going forward we get to see a version of Felix Leiter who has already gone through his ordeal, and perhaps isn't an official CIA agent. I think there'd be something more impactful about seeing a slightly older Felix with obvious injuries, who is very much a man with a zest for life and a useful friend to Bond.

    I wished that marriage thing was not in LTK, especially if they've failed to address that mourning, and yes it's not in the books either, and the wife thing never adds anything either, in Bond, it's an important aspect in the story (and in Bond's character), but regarding Felix Leiter, it doesn't add much anything (well, he don't appear that much).

    Actually Felix Leiter being mauled to a shark was strong enough to make Bond avenge his pal, but the raping of Della, it's too much, I think, and again, it's kinda forgotten by the end of the film.

    Now, if the issue was about Felix Leiter alone, it would've make Bond's friendship with Felix more meaningful and impactful, but what happened in the actual film was it's lessened because instead of Felix Leiter alone, there's also Della (his wife) that burned Bond's flame for revenge more, this was more evident when M was about to revoke his Licence To Kill, and mentioned that it's the business of CIA to investigate the situation, but then Bond insisted about Felix's wife, which became the ultimate reason for him going rogue.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 3,365
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yes, Felix talking about going fishing with Bond and giving the nurse little smiles is very strange to see. Even just a brief solemn moment held on Felix after he hangs up could have worked.

    But then again it's worth saying that Felix is actually quite a cheery, resiliant character in the novels. Admittedly he never has to witness the murder of his wife, but one gets the sense that most men having gone through the ordeal he did - losing limbs, having to give up a job in the CIA - would be in a much worse place. Instead he takes a job as a private detective, continues to work on an unofficial basis with the CIA, and seems very much the same guy you'd want to have a beer with.

    I hope going forward we get to see a version of Felix Leiter who has already gone through his ordeal, and perhaps isn't an official CIA agent. I think there'd be something more impactful about seeing a slightly older Felix with obvious injuries, who is very much a man with a zest for life and a useful friend to Bond.

    I wished that marriage thing was not in LTK, especially if they've failed to address that mourning, and yes it's not in the books either, and the wife thing never adds anything either, in Bond, it's an important aspect in the story (and in Bond's character), but regarding Felix Leiter, it doesn't add much anything.

    Actually Felix Leiter being mauled to a shark was strong enough to make Bond avenge his pal, but the raping of Della, it's too much, I think, and again, it's kinda forgotten by the end of the film.

    Now, if the issue was about Felix Leiter alone, it would make Bond's friendship with Felix more meaningful and impactful, but what happened in the actual film was it's lessened because instead of Felix Leiter alone, there's also Della (his wife) that almost burned Bond's flame for revenge more, this was more evident when M was about to revoke his Licence To Kill, and mentioned that it's the business of CIA to investigate the situation, but then Bond insisted about Felix's wife, which became the ultimate reason for him going rogue.

    I can see why they went with the idea of Felix getting married and Della subsequently getting killed. It really raises the emotional involvement for Bond, especially when you account for the Tracy reference early within the film. And it does have the benefit of making Sanchez look sufficiently monstrous as a villain.

    I suppose from the writer's perspective it's a case of just 'going for it' really. Whatever works the best and gives the audience the most involvement in the film. We as fans tend to be a bit more conservative about these sorts of things sometimes, especially when we see these things as going against the source material or the norms of the series. It's part of some people's problems with NTTD (which I sympathise with), whereas for a lot of casual viewers stuff like Felix dying or Bond having a daughter he knows about doesn't matter as much.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,448
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yes, Felix talking about going fishing with Bond and giving the nurse little smiles is very strange to see. Even just a brief solemn moment held on Felix after he hangs up could have worked.

    But then again it's worth saying that Felix is actually quite a cheery, resiliant character in the novels. Admittedly he never has to witness the murder of his wife, but one gets the sense that most men having gone through the ordeal he did - losing limbs, having to give up a job in the CIA - would be in a much worse place. Instead he takes a job as a private detective, continues to work on an unofficial basis with the CIA, and seems very much the same guy you'd want to have a beer with.

    I hope going forward we get to see a version of Felix Leiter who has already gone through his ordeal, and perhaps isn't an official CIA agent. I think there'd be something more impactful about seeing a slightly older Felix with obvious injuries, who is very much a man with a zest for life and a useful friend to Bond.

    I wished that marriage thing was not in LTK, especially if they've failed to address that mourning, and yes it's not in the books either, and the wife thing never adds anything either, in Bond, it's an important aspect in the story (and in Bond's character), but regarding Felix Leiter, it doesn't add much anything.

    Actually Felix Leiter being mauled to a shark was strong enough to make Bond avenge his pal, but the raping of Della, it's too much, I think, and again, it's kinda forgotten by the end of the film.

    Now, if the issue was about Felix Leiter alone, it would make Bond's friendship with Felix more meaningful and impactful, but what happened in the actual film was it's lessened because instead of Felix Leiter alone, there's also Della (his wife) that almost burned Bond's flame for revenge more, this was more evident when M was about to revoke his Licence To Kill, and mentioned that it's the business of CIA to investigate the situation, but then Bond insisted about Felix's wife, which became the ultimate reason for him going rogue.

    I can see why they went with the idea of Felix getting married and Della subsequently getting killed. It really raises the emotional involvement for Bond, especially when you account for the Tracy reference early within the film. And it does have the benefit of making Sanchez look sufficiently monstrous as a villain.

    But then, the problem with connecting it to his marriage with Tracy, is the emotional involvement wasn't that much felt either, because Bond never suffered emotionally after Tracy's death, that's why him avenging Felix's wife doesn't makes sense too, had Bond avenge Tracy's death and if we really saw his grief after Tracy's death, that move in LTK would've been more believable.

    That's what makes him, again, more of a hypocrite, because he avenged what happened to Della, yet never avenged what happened to his own wife (Tracy).

    I think it does make Sanchez more evil and monstrous as a villain, like with Goldfinger who had killed Jill and Tilly Masterson, for example.

    But again, what the film trying to show is the relationship between Bond and Felix, they're friendship, but it looked like what heightened Bond's motivation to go rogue was Della's raping, because as M said, it could've been investigated by the CIA, but Bond insisted Della's death.

    Had it been Felix's tragedy alone with Bond insisting on going rogue to avenge what happened to his friend, it would've been more impactful in regards to their friendship.
  • Agent0099Agent0099 Milford, Michigan
    Posts: 29
    Has Josh O'Connor been mentioned as a possible bond? He would be excellent if they wanted to cast someone more adkin to Fleming's description of bond but I'm still rooting for Sope. He would suite more to a series based on Fleming's books set in that time period.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 15,580
    mtm wrote: »
    I think they should have just killed Felix in LTK, rather than effectively fridging Della, who doesn't even get mentioned again apart from her name on the lighter.

    The only part about LTK I don't like is how cheery Felix is at the very end, forgetting about his recent wife's death.

    Yes it's insane, really. The film didn't really want to commit to Della's death being important, and Bond goes through the whole thing without really giving her a second thought- instead it's Felix who's invoked in the Killifer revenge. If they'd just have killed Felix then it would have all been simpler and more effective I think: it's a little half-hearted the way they kill off the new character they've invented but can't bring themselves to kill an established character like Felix.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Actually Felix Leiter being mauled to a shark was strong enough to make Bond avenge his pal, but the raping of Della, it's too much, I think, and again, it's kinda forgotten by the end of the film.

    Yeah I think it's too much too. Also them bringing up Bond's marriage, only for Felix to have his wife killed on their wedding as well, is almost a bit silly.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 3,365
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yes, Felix talking about going fishing with Bond and giving the nurse little smiles is very strange to see. Even just a brief solemn moment held on Felix after he hangs up could have worked.

    But then again it's worth saying that Felix is actually quite a cheery, resiliant character in the novels. Admittedly he never has to witness the murder of his wife, but one gets the sense that most men having gone through the ordeal he did - losing limbs, having to give up a job in the CIA - would be in a much worse place. Instead he takes a job as a private detective, continues to work on an unofficial basis with the CIA, and seems very much the same guy you'd want to have a beer with.

    I hope going forward we get to see a version of Felix Leiter who has already gone through his ordeal, and perhaps isn't an official CIA agent. I think there'd be something more impactful about seeing a slightly older Felix with obvious injuries, who is very much a man with a zest for life and a useful friend to Bond.

    I wished that marriage thing was not in LTK, especially if they've failed to address that mourning, and yes it's not in the books either, and the wife thing never adds anything either, in Bond, it's an important aspect in the story (and in Bond's character), but regarding Felix Leiter, it doesn't add much anything.

    Actually Felix Leiter being mauled to a shark was strong enough to make Bond avenge his pal, but the raping of Della, it's too much, I think, and again, it's kinda forgotten by the end of the film.

    Now, if the issue was about Felix Leiter alone, it would make Bond's friendship with Felix more meaningful and impactful, but what happened in the actual film was it's lessened because instead of Felix Leiter alone, there's also Della (his wife) that almost burned Bond's flame for revenge more, this was more evident when M was about to revoke his Licence To Kill, and mentioned that it's the business of CIA to investigate the situation, but then Bond insisted about Felix's wife, which became the ultimate reason for him going rogue.

    I can see why they went with the idea of Felix getting married and Della subsequently getting killed. It really raises the emotional involvement for Bond, especially when you account for the Tracy reference early within the film. And it does have the benefit of making Sanchez look sufficiently monstrous as a villain.

    But then, the problem with connecting it to his marriage with Tracy, is the emotional involvement wasn't that much felt either, because Bond never suffered emotionally after Tracy's death, that's why him avenging Felix's wife doesn't makes sense too, had Bond avenge Tracy's death and if we really saw his grief after Tracy's death, that move in LTK would've been more believable.

    That's what makes him, again, more of a hypocrite, because he avenged what happened to Della, yet never avenged what happened to his own wife (Tracy).

    I think it does make Sanchez more evil and monstrous as a villain, like with Goldfinger who had killed Jill and Tilly Masterson, for example.

    But again, what the film trying to show is the relationship between Bond and Felix, they're friendship, but it looked like what heightened Bond's motivation to go rogue was Della's raping, because as M said, it could've been investigated by the CIA, but Bond insisted Della's death.

    Had it been Felix's tragedy alone with Bond insisting on going rogue to avenge what happened to his friend, it would've been more impactful in regards to their friendship.

    I think within the context of LTK that little nod to Tracy is felt. I'm not sure how familiar the average viewer at the time would have been with OHMSS/DAF beyond that really, nor does it matter. Hell, I'm not sure if I even see Lazenby's Bond as being the same one as Connery's in DAF, let alone Dalton's version in this one being the same. Within the film itself it's a small but meaningful moment that's not dwelt on.

    I suppose the writers wanted to really hammer home that not only has Leiter been harmed at Sanchez's hand, but he's essentially had his future taken from him too. It even plays into Sanchez's pettiness/how evil he is (in the sense that Leiter arresting Sanchez would have taken away his future, so there's a kind of personal aspect to what Sanchez does too). It just feels more impactful to me. I'm sure these can be criticised as creative choices, but I can definitely understand why they were made.

    Like I said, I think it's interesting comparing these decisions to some of the ones made in NTTD. There's a sense that while both deviated from the source material the writers of both films also had 'one foot in the door' with regards to Fleming's material as well. What was added, changed or recontextualised was done so in order to strengthen the story as they saw it (whether or not one agrees that it did so is another matter), and in both films they tend to be quite major dramatic choices.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,610
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.

    Good question mate, I think the death ruined any enjoyment I was going to get out of NTTD if I'm honest, because as much as I love Matera, Jamaica and Paloma I have no desire to rewatch the film were Bond dies.

    Aside from the end, there's a lot in the film that I didn't like to be honest, the M scene, Blofeld scene/death, the unnecessary 007 storyline and the way they fumbled Bond having a daughter. It all could have been streamlined and made a more focused. It felt like too many boxes to check and not enough time

    This is just my opinion though, if you love NTTD and enjoy it then fair enough, I'm jealous of anyone who loves it, because Craig is my favourite Bond and his last film is probably one of my least favourites in the series
  • Jordo007 wrote: »
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.

    Good question mate, I think the death ruined any enjoyment I was going to get out of NTTD if I'm honest, because as much as I love Matera, Jamaica and Paloma I have no desire to rewatch the film were Bond dies.

    Aside from the end, there's a lot in the film that I didn't like to be honest, the M scene, Blofeld scene/death, the unnecessary 007 storyline and the way they fumbled Bond having a daughter. It all could have been streamlined and made a more focused. It felt like too many boxes to check and not enough time

    This is just my opinion though, if you love NTTD and enjoy it then fair enough, I'm jealous of anyone who loves it, because Craig is my favourite Bond and his last film is probably one of my least favourites in the series

    Had this film ended with the last chapter of YOLT faithfully adapted, this movie would probably have made my top 10. Had it just ended with Bond being alive and surviving, I would have liked it more than I do now, that’s for sure
  • Posts: 6,687
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.

    Good question mate, I think the death ruined any enjoyment I was going to get out of NTTD if I'm honest, because as much as I love Matera, Jamaica and Paloma I have no desire to rewatch the film were Bond dies.

    Aside from the end, there's a lot in the film that I didn't like to be honest, the M scene, Blofeld scene/death, the unnecessary 007 storyline and the way they fumbled Bond having a daughter. It all could have been streamlined and made a more focused. It felt like too many boxes to check and not enough time

    This is just my opinion though, if you love NTTD and enjoy it then fair enough, I'm jealous of anyone who loves it, because Craig is my favourite Bond and his last film is probably one of my least favourites in the series

    Had this film ended with the last chapter of YOLT faithfully adapted, this movie would probably have made my top 10. Had it just ended with Bond being alive and surviving, I would have liked it more than I do now, that’s for sure
    Oh yes, absolutely.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,012
    Yes, I'd like NTTD more if Bond survived at the end. But it'd still be my least favourite of Dan's run, tbh.
  • They had to kill him off for Dan's peace of mind
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,580
    I like the death, I think it works.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,094
    echo wrote: »
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.
    [T]here's still the problem of Killing Felix, killing Blofeld, Bond the dad

    Fleming did two of these things, and almost did the third.

    Bond being a dad was almost written in passing the way Fleming did it, and also something Bond himself was not aware of. Again, nothing like the terrible onscreen version.

    So just because Bond was unaware of having a child in two Fleming books, that means that he should never find out down the line? Like ever? Just because Fleming had passed away before he would want to do a story where Bond finds out he’s a father? That’s a very dogmatic approach IMO. We might as well start knocking these films because Eon had their Bond actors wear Windsor knots.

    I can understand if one is not a fan of the execution of how the revelation of Bond being a father was handled. I would have liked Bond to be a little more angry at Madeleine for keeping him in the dark about something he should rightfully be aware of, regardless of what his role in his daughter’s life might have been. He doesn’t have to be a father to her, and he’d probably have stayed out of the way if Madeleine didn’t want him in her life.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,836
    mtm wrote: »
    I think they should have just killed Felix in LTK, rather than effectively fridging Della, who doesn't even get mentioned again apart from her name on the lighter.

    The only part about LTK I don't like is how cheery Felix is at the very end, forgetting about his recent wife's death.

    Good lord, yes! I couldn't agree more. I understand that a film like LTK, with a few pretty bleak moments, needs a tension release at the end, but the fact that Felix of all people has to amusingly tell Bond that M has a job for him, is a cold move. Nothing about Della? A broken man, but only in a physical sense? QOS is a revenge film too, and that one ends with sober ruminations that fit the context of the film. LTK, while defying the established "Bond formula" all film long, insisted on ending with a smile and a literal wink. That part doesn't work for me. The rest of the film is great IMO.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,012
    Indeed. I still remember how that landed with a hollow clang the first time I saw it. Misfire, dude.
  • TuxedoTuxedo Europe
    Posts: 257
    Jordo007 wrote: »

    Aside from the end, there's a lot in the film that I didn't like to be honest, the M scene, Blofeld scene/death, the unnecessary 007 storyline and the way they fumbled Bond having a daughter. It all could have been streamlined and made a more focused. It felt like too many boxes to check and not enough time.

    I agree. Especially the Blofeld scene was something I didn't like. But I have to admit that I enjoyed the scenes where Naomi was concerned about being 007.

    But the whole relationship with M. Swann and having a daughter with her didn't work for me. I understand that Craig`s last Bond couldn't have been a stand alone story. But to me the whole plot felt very forced to give Craig the credits for his contributions for the series (ironically to kill his version of Bond). To me they stretched the story arc for to long. Maybe SPECTRE should have been his last one.
  • Posts: 1,707
    With Bond dead, the producers need not owe anything to the 25 films preceding the next film. This can be a fresh start unencumbered by past missions and relationships. I have no interest in seeing a villain from a pervious Bond story reappear. With actual Fleming material long abandoned, why reintroduce Blofeld? Create a new villain if we must endure facing an enemy he seems never to dispatch, except accidentally in NTTD. This way we don't have to have discussions about timelines and chronology. Ignore it all and get on with it. If the producers felt killing Bond was a bold move, then they'll hopefully be bold enough to chart a new course.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,955
    Great post @CrabKey , whilst I would like to see a return of Blofeld and Spectre at some point, after reading your post I'm not so sure.
    Maybe it is time to let the past go, and have a whole new set of stories devoid of any past continuity.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 3,291
    echo wrote: »
    Here's a question. If Bond doesn't die in the end, would those who didn't like it, like it slightly, if not more? It would be a top 5 Bond film if he didn't die and I rank it around 16-17 with the ending we have.
    [T]here's still the problem of Killing Felix, killing Blofeld, Bond the dad

    Fleming did two of these things, and almost did the third.

    Bond being a dad was almost written in passing the way Fleming did it, and also something Bond himself was not aware of. Again, nothing like the terrible onscreen version.

    So just because Bond was unaware of having a child in two Fleming books, that means that he should never find out down the line? Like ever? Just because Fleming had passed away before he would want to do a story where Bond finds out he’s a father? That’s a very dogmatic approach IMO. We might as well start knocking these films because Eon had their Bond actors wear Windsor knots.

    I can understand if one is not a fan of the execution of how the revelation of Bond being a father was handled. I would have liked Bond to be a little more angry at Madeleine for keeping him in the dark about something he should rightfully be aware of, regardless of what his role in his daughter’s life might have been. He doesn’t have to be a father to her, and he’d probably have stayed out of the way if Madeleine didn’t want him in her life.

    I would have accepted the daughter storyline if it had been done in a better way, or yes, the way Fleming wrote it.

    But everything about NTTD was bad. I just felt the daughter storyline was shoehorned in, just to add another shock to the script, basically throwing the kitchen sink at Bond from all angles.

    The woman he loves taken away from him, his 007 status given to another woman, rejection by other women, living as a loner for 5 years then find out the woman he loves didn't betray him after all, then kill his best friend, then give him a daughter, ....and then what else can we do? I know, kill him off completely, but not before he finds out for sure that the daughter is really his, and also make sure he can never touch either of them again for good measure.

    It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies. The more I think about NTTD, the more I realise what a stinker of a movie it really is. DAD is like a masterpiece in comparison, and I always thought that film was and always would be the lowest point in the franchise....until now!
  • Posts: 1,043
    It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies.

    I get the same feeling. There's an unpleasant air of mean-spiritedness that runs through this movie.
    They changed James Bond, he's no longer 'the man every man wants to be' . . . he's now 'the man every man's glad they're not'.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 3,291
    It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies.

    They changed James Bond, he's no longer 'the man every man wants to be' . . . he's now 'the man every man's glad they're not'.

    :)) Exactly!
    I felt nothing but sorry and pity for Bond by the end, something I never thought I'd ever be feeling during a Bond movie.

    It almost made me pine for seeing Moore being the ultimate sexist pig in his Hong Kong hotel room with Ekland and Adams, Connery slapping asses saying `man talk', or Lazenby sleeping his way through the female patients at a Swiss clinic.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,448
    It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies.

    I get the same feeling. There's an unpleasant air of mean-spiritedness that runs through this movie.
    They changed James Bond, he's no longer 'the man every man wants to be' . . . he's now 'the man every man's glad they're not'.

    There's no wrong to be mean spirited through it, after all Fleming himself disliked Bond that he'd wrote several tragedies throughout Bond's life in the books, that even the readers would've never dreamed of living the same life as Bond himself.

    The problem was I think it became too much, the way these concepts are written, it became overstuffed and convoluted, it's like different plots compressed in one film.
    It's full of plot contrivances, fan services, and drama aspects that were felt unearned.

    But, hey, I do understand it, Bond in the books and films, even his life are meant to be completely different, so we expect Bond to be a wish fulfilment, male fantasy in the films, it's the matter of cinematic Bond, that's okay.

    It's a pretentious film trying to be all in one, it's like they've made a cake and eat it too kind of thing, but it didn't worked.

    I heavily disliked No Time To Die because it's very spoon fed, the Producers are forcing us to care about this storyline, they've forced us to eat whatever was happening in the film, but the problem is, it's very hard to care anymore, I just couldn't take it.

    The ultimate sin that a Bond film could do is for the audience not to care about what's happening anymore, and that's what I've felt about No Time To Die, I'd rather take boring Bond films than to see a Bond film where I couldn't take the story, the characters and all what's inside the film.

    I don't care about Madeleine, or their romance or anything that's in the previous film, SPECTRE, I just don't care about it, and I've completely lost interest, and for the film in which the plot revolved around it, I just couldn't take it anymore, plus it adds a lot more insult to the injury by heavily using some aspects from my favorite Bond film (OHMSS), it just became worst.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited September 2023 Posts: 8,094
    It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies.

    I get the same feeling. There's an unpleasant air of mean-spiritedness that runs through this movie.
    They changed James Bond, he's no longer 'the man every man wants to be' . . . he's now 'the man every man's glad they're not'.

    Funnily, that’s how I felt about Fleming’s Bond when I read the books for the first time. Fleming seemed to always put Bond through the wringer in his novels that I can’t imagine why anyone would fantasize about going on his kind of adventures that typically puts Bond in the hospital. I’m not just talking about the torture in CR, but especially stuff like him crawling through scalding hot air vents in DN where he burns parts of his skin off.

    The movies definitely play a lot more into the “every man wants to be him” aspect of that character until they decided to make Craig Bond a far more flawed character like Fleming’s.
  • It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies.

    I get the same feeling. There's an unpleasant air of mean-spiritedness that runs through this movie.
    They changed James Bond, he's no longer 'the man every man wants to be' . . . he's now 'the man every man's glad they're not'.

    Funnily, that’s how I felt about Fleming’s Bond when I read the books for the first time. Fleming seemed to always put Bond through the wringer in his novels that I can’t imagine why anyone would fantasize about going on his kind of adventures that typically puts Bond in the hospital. I’m not just talking about the torture in CR, but especially stuff like him crawling through scalding hot air vents in DN where he burns parts of his skin off.

    The movies definitely play a lot more into the “every man wants to be him” aspect of that character until they decided to make Craig Bond a far more flawed character like Fleming’s.

    Yes I get this to an extent. But I do think the Fleming books allow you into Bond's head, Bond's world through his eyes, and we feel his fear, we feel his pleasure, we indulge the same way he does.

    Also, ultimately in Fleming's world Bond survives to live another day (even though there were a couple of potential mishaps along the way in FRWL and YOLT). This to me was the biggest sin committed in NTTD, far more than anything else.
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