The What if thread...M had been re-cast for CR 2006? page 60

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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited March 2023 Posts: 3,382
    Taking a break from the previous two female casting what ifs, I wanted to submit another question:

    When starting to develop Licence to Kill (or Licence Revoked as it was first known), Eon wanted a place where the series had not yet visited for the primary location. While China was visited after an invitation by its government, the idea fell through because of budget concerns most notably. With China out, the Eon team decided to relocate the story in Latin America. But what if Asia was kept as the main location? Either with Eon filming in China or in another Asian country?

    How would this setting have impacted the story? Originally, Maibaum and Wilson dusted off the original Bond 15 treatments, set in South East Asia, and reworked them to refashion this prequel story into a traditional Bond adventure, before moving away and crafting Licence to Kill as we know it.

    In short, what if Licence to Kill was set in Asia as it was originally planned?

    It would have been a bit dated, they've decided to made the film in Latin America to join the wave of 80's Drug Action films like Miami Vice and Lethal Weapon, so that thing kinda helped the film, if the BO wasn't successful it's because of the violence and so was Dalton's portrayal of being too much serious, the version that we've got aged a lot more better, because there's no stereotypes, it's pretty diverse.

    Up to this day, only two Bond films had been shot in Asia (not including TND), You Only Live Twice and The Man With The Golden Gun and as we know of them, they did aged badly, too many racist stereotypes and etc.

    I prefer what we've got.
  • SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It would have been a bit dated, they've decided to made the film in Latin America to join the wave of 80's Drug Action films like Miami Vice and Lethal Weapon, so that thing kinda helped the film, if the BO wasn't successful it's because of the violence and so was Dalton's portrayal of being too much serious, the version that we've got aged a lot more better, because there's no stereotypes, it's pretty diverse.
    While I do agree that the movie we got didn't aged that much by opposition to other movies from that period, or other Bond films (it's even my second favourite of the series), it's interesting to suggest that the 80's Drug Action films vibe helped LTK. I thought that reviewers criticised the film for not having a sufficiently exotic or escapist setting and, as @Ludovico wrote, Asia would have been more exotic than Florida or Mexico.

    Any idea how this setting would have impacted the story?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited March 2023 Posts: 3,382
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It would have been a bit dated, they've decided to made the film in Latin America to join the wave of 80's Drug Action films like Miami Vice and Lethal Weapon, so that thing kinda helped the film, if the BO wasn't successful it's because of the violence and so was Dalton's portrayal of being too much serious, the version that we've got aged a lot more better, because there's no stereotypes, it's pretty diverse.
    While I do agree that the movie we got didn't aged that much by opposition to other movies from that period, or other Bond films (it's even my second favourite of the series), it's interesting to suggest that the 80's Drug Action films vibe helped LTK. I thought that reviewers criticised the film for not having a sufficiently exotic or escapist setting and, as @Ludovico wrote, Asia would have been more exotic than Florida or Mexico.

    Any idea how this setting would have impacted the story?

    I'm not sure, possibly instead of Latinos, the drug lords were Asians? Or possibly it's still Latin Drug Lords but with connections to Asian Drug Lords? It's like a Drug Syndicate Ring?

    But I'm imagining the vibe of it would be similar to You Only Live Twice or The Man With The Golden Gun based on how the Bond films presented Asia, the stereotypes could still not be avoided, I think, and that's the aspect that I think would not aged well.
  • Posts: 14,799
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It would have been a bit dated, they've decided to made the film in Latin America to join the wave of 80's Drug Action films like Miami Vice and Lethal Weapon, so that thing kinda helped the film, if the BO wasn't successful it's because of the violence and so was Dalton's portrayal of being too much serious, the version that we've got aged a lot more better, because there's no stereotypes, it's pretty diverse.
    While I do agree that the movie we got didn't aged that much by opposition to other movies from that period, or other Bond films (it's even my second favourite of the series), it's interesting to suggest that the 80's Drug Action films vibe helped LTK. I thought that reviewers criticised the film for not having a sufficiently exotic or escapist setting and, as @Ludovico wrote, Asia would have been more exotic than Florida or Mexico.

    Any idea how this setting would have impacted the story?

    I'm not sure, possibly instead of Latinos, the drug lords were Asians? Or possibly it's still Latin Drug Lords but with connections to Asian Drug Lords? It's like a Drug Syndicate Ring?

    But I'm imagining the vibe of it would be similar to You Only Live Twice or The Man With The Golden Gun based on how the Bond films presented Asia, the stereotypes could still not be avoided, I think, and that's the aspect that I think would not aged well.

    Either way, I think a Far East feel would have benefitted the movie, both exotic and old school.
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 154
    Any idea how this setting would have impacted the story?

    Potentially not as much as one might think. This is the era when things like Air America and the CIA’s alleged involvement in drug smuggling was coming to the fore (indeed, the film Air America by the future director of TND was released the following year). So you could still have Leiter pursuing drugs, heroin instead of cocaine, and have something akin to the “Colonel Crack” found in early treatments for LTK. Killifer could become a CIA pal of Lieter’s involved in smuggling who betrays him, which gives the US even less reason to get involved and Bond more reason to do so.

    That’s an oversimplification, but it could have worked. Maybe even going back to Hong Kong for some sequences, as the Brosnan fronted miniseries Noble House shows, as well.
  • Posts: 14,799
    Any idea how this setting would have impacted the story?

    Potentially not as much as one might think. This is the era when things like Air America and the CIA’s alleged involvement in drug smuggling was coming to the fore (indeed, the film Air America by the future director of TND was released the following year). So you could still have Leiter pursuing drugs, heroin instead of cocaine, and have something akin to the “Colonel Crack” found in early treatments for LTK. Killifer could become a CIA pal of Lieter’s involved in smuggling who betrays him, which gives the US even less reason to get involved and Bond more reason to do so.

    That’s an oversimplification, but it could have worked. Maybe even going back to Hong Kong for some sequences, as the Brosnan fronted miniseries Noble House shows, as well.

    I'd add to this that heroin is both more exotic and terrifying than cocaine, being an opiate and all. There's a whole history with it that would have made the Chinese's anger all the more visceral.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    I like the heroin/opium mention and its history, that could improve things. Asian Bond girls, Diana Hsu or otherwise. Maybe inner city action, more than just some ninja outffits.

    The final action with the fuel tankers for instance. If it was done in the Asia countryside, I expect a more Mad Max style turn. Not automatically a bad thing. So it would have been a different film and maybe tone.

    But anyway, Asia is always welcome for me and surely they'd develop something of interest.

    d2ee5c476b30357a5e5a787ae045b6164fb991d3.gifv
  • Any idea how this setting would have impacted the story?

    Potentially not as much as one might think. This is the era when things like Air America and the CIA’s alleged involvement in drug smuggling was coming to the fore (indeed, the film Air America by the future director of TND was released the following year). So you could still have Leiter pursuing drugs, heroin instead of cocaine, and have something akin to the “Colonel Crack” found in early treatments for LTK. Killifer could become a CIA pal of Lieter’s involved in smuggling who betrays him, which gives the US even less reason to get involved and Bond more reason to do so.

    It's interesting you mention Roger Spottiswoode because he was approached at one point to direct a Bond movie starring Dalton (although I'm not sure if it was for LTK or Bond 17). Maybe he could have directed this alternate Bond 16 set in Asia. Anyway, the actual LTK could have indeed easily been adapted to be relocated in Asia and it's even easy to see the character of Kwang from the early Bond 15 treatments as a precursor to Sanchez.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 2,750
    I agree with most people that the premise for LTK could have easily been transposed onto an East Asian setting. I'm sure some of the depictions of certain characters could have fallen into stereotype that would feel dated today (although I don't think this would have been too much a problem and would have been no worse than YOLT or even the ninja scenes in the LTK we got in this regard).

    I think the biggest concern the producers had at the time was that if they filmed in China the script would be censored in some form by the Government. Perhaps then they would have changed countries, perhaps opted for Japan again (which would make sense, considering some of the script was influenced by Kurosawa's Yojimbo).
  • Posts: 2,887
    The Leiter revenge plot would have to be reworked to explain why Leiter was getting married in east Asia. And neither Robert Davi nor Carey Lowell would be in the film, which are major demerits in my book. And while east Asian locations would have been more unusual than Latin American ones at the time, they wouldn't be today. Filming in Asia also could have backfired--we have to remember that the budgets for the Bond films had been frozen in place for a decade by the time of LTK, which was shot in Mexico to save money. Shooting in Asia might have been a bigger money drain and logistics nightmare than Mexico was.

  • Revelator wrote: »
    And neither Robert Davi nor Carey Lowell would be in the film, which are major demerits in my book.
    I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that Pam was already present in the early drafts, back when the plot was still set in Asia. I don't remember the source though... Taschen's James Bond Archives I think, but I'm not sure. If it was indeed the case, then Carey Lowell may well still have been in the movie. It would have been more difficult for Robert Davi though.

    Also, regarding the bad guys, Maibaum said, back in '89 (quotation taken from the Some Kind of Hero book):
    We wanted to pick up on a warlord in the Golden Triangle from [the] previous film who was mixed up in drugs and we thought we could incorporate it into a story set in China.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2023 Posts: 2,895
    Agree with Revelator - I wouldn't want to lose Davi and Carey. Maybe have the Chinese looking to ally with the Central Americans as a way of getting heroin into the West? That way you could keep both of them, no? Instead of refusing the Istanbul mission and going rogue, make it a Far East mission that Bond accepts - maybe to undermine the alliance so that it implodes or they turn on each other. That'd keep Bond's subversion of Davi's organisation, but widen it too. Could there be a role for Tiger once Bond's in Asia? As an agent, rather than the man at the top. Maybe he's already infiltrated the Chinese end of the operation, with the same aim as Bond? If the Chinese plot was referenced explicitly as a reversal of the Opium Wars (ie. turning the West's past dodgy tactics around and using them against it) that'd say something about the murky world Bond inhabits, while allowing him to appear as a bulwark against both Communist destabilisation and Western decadence. Something like that, anyway. I know some people have said that LTK sometimes seems a bit too small for a Bond film, so expanding it like this could keep the core but give it more of the scope we (and general audiences) look for, without making it a fundamentally different movie. Hopefully!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2023 Posts: 5,921
    Revelator wrote: »
    The Leiter revenge plot would have to be reworked to explain why Leiter was getting married in east Asia. And neither Robert Davi nor Carey Lowell would be in the film, which are major demerits in my book. And while east Asian locations would have been more unusual than Latin American ones at the time, they wouldn't be today. Filming in Asia also could have backfired--we have to remember that the budgets for the Bond films had been frozen in place for a decade by the time of LTK, which was shot in Mexico to save money. Shooting in Asia might have been a bigger money drain and logistics nightmare than Mexico was.

    Yes, agreed that the Leiter subplot would have been adversely affected by it being set in Asia...unless Della was maybe Asian?

    If set in Asia, the Hong Kong narcotics subplot would make a lot more sense than it currently does.

    As an aside, I love the diverse casting in LTK, particularly Sharkey. It makes it feel different, more contemporary, than most Bond films.

    As another aside, I don't think any Bond films set in Asia are particularly strong. It's been diminishing returns ever since YOLT, and often feels like location box-checking.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 648
    I think an Asian setting would have undermined LTK. Bond going south of the border into a lawless land ruled by drug lords heightens the danger he's in and also brings out his own gangster-ish character traits. Of course, SE Asia is plenty dangerous itself, but it doesn't have the allure of 80s Latin America.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    They'd have to switch elements of the story for sure.

    62ff5ad3e6363512f895701d306b79d20f9efa60.pnj


  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited March 2023 Posts: 3,382
    echo wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    The Leiter revenge plot would have to be reworked to explain why Leiter was getting married in east Asia. And neither Robert Davi nor Carey Lowell would be in the film, which are major demerits in my book. And while east Asian locations would have been more unusual than Latin American ones at the time, they wouldn't be today. Filming in Asia also could have backfired--we have to remember that the budgets for the Bond films had been frozen in place for a decade by the time of LTK, which was shot in Mexico to save money. Shooting in Asia might have been a bigger money drain and logistics nightmare than Mexico was.

    Yes, agreed that the Leiter subplot would have been adversely affected by it being set in Asia...unless Della was maybe Asian?

    If set in Asia, the Hong Kong narcotics subplot would make a lot more sense than it currently does.

    As an aside, I love the diverse casting in LTK, particularly Sharkey. It makes it feel different, more contemporary, than most Bond films.

    As another aside, I don't think any Bond films set in Asia are particularly strong. It's been diminishing returns ever since YOLT, and often feels like location box-checking.

    Agreed! Those Bond films set in Asia aren't that strong really, and they also didn't aged well.

    YOLT, TMWTGG for example, it's not until in the 90's that they successfully portrayed Asia beautifully (TND).

    Edit: @thedove check your mail 😊 thank you .
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Good stuff about the LTK discussion. Interesting how a geographical region could change the tone of the film.

    On to another what if proposed by @SIS_HQ

    AVTAK featured CIA agent Chuck Lee in the film. No offence to the actor but the role was under developed and didn't leave much of an impression on the audience. Our What if to consider is what if the producers had decided to instead re-introduce Felix Leiter into this project. Cast David Hedison in the role and have him in TLD as well. Then what impact would this have on LTK? Would it strengthen the poignancy of Felix being attacked? Maybe this what if deals with multiple films, but what if David Hedison had appeared as Felix Leiter in AVTAK instead of Chuck Lee?
  • To be honest, I don't think David Hedison would have been brought back for AVTAK. He was, for LTK, a little bit by luck apparently, because he encountered Cubby and Dana Broccoli at the time when Eon was looking for an actor for the part. So, it's probable in my opinion that, without this fortunate incident, Hedison wouldn't have been back and we would have had a new Leiter for AVTAK.

    Thus, supposing Leiter would have had a similar role than Chuck Lee in AVTAK, I guess he would have been as memorable as Lee or John Terry in TLD, meaning not memorable at all. So no impact on LTK.

    If by any luck Hedison was brought back to play the part, let's suppose on Moore's recommendation, even though I doubt it, then I see two potential timelines: (1) After being that associated to Moore, Hedison is all together left out from Dalton's films and we have a new Leiter for the rest of the series; (2) After becoming the first returning Leiter actor, Hedison is called back for TLD and is definitely associated to the part. Between the two options, the first one seems the most probable to me. But, again, I doubt Hedison would have been brought back.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2023 Posts: 5,921
    Hedison would have been great in AVTAK, opposite Moore.

    And maybe after Tibbett is killed, Bond would have had the opportunity to be extraprotective toward Felix, not wanting to lose another ally. More emotional resonance than we ever got for poor Chuck Lee.

    I think Hedison is miscast in LTK, simply too old for Dalton's Bond. But that being said, I still wish Leiter had returned in the Brosnan era. Someone like Woody Harrelson would have been perfect back then, and certainly an improvement on Jack Wade.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited March 2023 Posts: 3,382
    Thanks @thedove

    Anyway, I think some of the scenes in the film would have changed (and here's how I imagined it):

    - After the car drowning scene in the lake, when Bond waited for MayDay and Zorin to leave, while getting some oxygen through a tire, he would see another bunch of new guys coming above, and it's Felix and the other CIA agents calling Bond, then rescuing him.
    - After they've rescued Bond, Felix would likely to tell Bond: "Your old friend, that other guy in the car, he's dead, James".
    - Felix Leiter would tell Bond about Stacey Sutton, instead of Stacey Sutton telling her background to Bond, it's Felix Leiter who would tell it to Bond, so when Bond met Stacey, Bond already know the whole story, and who is Stacey.
    - Felix Leiter would have likely to go with Bond in the California City Hall for an interview with Mr. Howe, but Felix Leiter would just wait outside the room (to act as a look out), while Bond was interviewing Mr. Howe inside, just imagine Felix Leiter's reaction after the interview: "What happened? What did he say?"
    - When Bond and Stacey are planning to head on the City Hall, this is the scene where all of them three are present (Chuck Lee, Bond and Stacey) in Stacey's kitchen, for sure, it would be replaced by Leiter.
    - Felix Leiter and the CIA team (in their cars) would likely to distract those Police Officers chasing Bond and Stacey in that Firetruck chase, when Bond said "that should keep them on the wrong track", with an additional line of Bond talking to Felix on a radio plugged in the Firetruck"thank you Felix", with Felix on the other hand telling: "Well, you're welcome, James!"

    That's only my thoughts, you guys, how some scenes in AVTAK would have changed if Felix Leiter was in the film instead of Chuck Lee?
  • Posts: 15,785
    In a STARLOG interview for AVTAK, Roger Moore mentioned that the original plan was for Hedison to return as Leiter, but the Chuck Lee character was created instead.
    I'd have preferred to see Felix. I suppose Chuck Lee was probably created as a second sacrificial lamb.
  • Posts: 1,879
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    In a STARLOG interview for AVTAK, Roger Moore mentioned that the original plan was for Hedison to return as Leiter, but the Chuck Lee character was created instead.
    I'd have preferred to see Felix. I suppose Chuck Lee was probably created as a second sacrificial lamb.
    I recall that interview as well and I think they gave a lame excuse like since San Francisco has a Chinatown and the film very briefly visits there it made sense to have a Chinese CIA agent. Huh?

    All but knowing this would be Moore's last film would've been a great excuse to bring back Leiter and possibly Hedison. Besides that, having another actor from a popular '60s series after Patrick Macnee's appearance may have made having Hedison in particular a harder choice to make.

    As somebody else said, the Chuck Lee actor and character are such a blank spot that you feel little for his being a sacrificial lamb, especially in light of Tibbett being a character who was easy to warm to, and even Stacey's boss, Howe, whose death was particularly cold. But David Yip does have a very unique pop culture claim: He was killed helping two of action cinema's greatest characters, James Bond and Indiana Jones. For those that don't remember or didn't realize, he aids Indy in the Temple of Doom opening scene in Club Obi-wan.
  • Posts: 15,785
    BT3366 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    In a STARLOG interview for AVTAK, Roger Moore mentioned that the original plan was for Hedison to return as Leiter, but the Chuck Lee character was created instead.
    I'd have preferred to see Felix. I suppose Chuck Lee was probably created as a second sacrificial lamb.
    I recall that interview as well and I think they gave a lame excuse like since San Francisco has a Chinatown and the film very briefly visits there it made sense to have a Chinese CIA agent. Huh?

    All but knowing this would be Moore's last film would've been a great excuse to bring back Leiter and possibly Hedison. Besides that, having another actor from a popular '60s series after Patrick Macnee's appearance may have made having Hedison in particular a harder choice to make.

    As somebody else said, the Chuck Lee actor and character are such a blank spot that you feel little for his being a sacrificial lamb, especially in light of Tibbett being a character who was easy to warm to, and even Stacey's boss, Howe, whose death was particularly cold. But David Yip does have a very unique pop culture claim: He was killed helping two of action cinema's greatest characters, James Bond and Indiana Jones. For those that don't remember or didn't realize, he aids Indy in the Temple of Doom opening scene in Club Obi-wan.

    That's right. Been ages since I read that article. I always think of David Yip in TEMPLE OF DOOM, when I get to the Chuck Lee scenes. " I go first, Indy.........."
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2023 Posts: 2,895
    Hadn't heard about Sir Rog saying that the original plan actually was for David Hedison to come back for AVTAK. I'd have really liked that - Hedison was a great Leiter, had spot on chemistry with Roger and it would've brought RogBond and Felix full circle. Some great ideas from SIS_HQ about how they might've done it, too. I vote yes!
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited March 2023 Posts: 4,904

    Interesting thoughts on Leiter appearing in AVTAK. Hadn't thought of the bookend it would have created for Roger's Bond.

    Lets move ahead a few years for the next What If. After the results of LTK the producers decided to go back to the basic formula with "Bond 17". The hired screenwriters and a full script was developed. At Cannes the film was promoted as coming in 1991. Sadly, lawsuits, bankruptcy and various other legal battles shelved making this project. It was looked at for 1994 but never got off the ground.

    But what if this film had been made? Lets all play casting directors and see what sort of cast we could create for this film. Timothy would return as Bond for this third adventure but who would he star with? To those unfamillar with the roles and cast of characters click here

    Bond17-histoire-4.jpg

    What say you Mi6 casting directors, what if Bond 17 had been made, whose in the cast with Tim?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,050
    Sir Anthony Hopkins as Denholm Crisp.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,482
    Catherine Zeta Jones definitely. She should have been a Bond girl
  • Posts: 6,727
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting thoughts on Leiter appearing in AVTAK. Hadn't thought of the bookend it would have created for Roger's Bond.

    Lets move ahead a few years for the next What If. After the results of LTK the producers decided to go back to the basic formula with "Bond 17". The hired screenwriters and a full script was developed. At Cannes the film was promoted as coming in 1991. Sadly, lawsuits, bankruptcy and various other legal battles shelved making this project. It was looked at for 1994 but never got off the ground.

    But what if this film had been made? Lets all play casting directors and see what sort of cast we could create for this film. Timothy would return as Bond for this third adventure but who would he star with? To those unfamillar with the roles and cast of characters click here

    Bond17-histoire-4.jpg

    What say you Mi6 casting directors, what if Bond 17 had been made, whose in the cast with Tim?

    Gosh, I remember that advertising hoarding, Cannes I think? Was so looking forward to Bond 17 with Dalton then! The news of the lawsuit, and unknown length of delay was so frustrating!!
    Anyway, sorry, back on topic!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    I feel like we would have gotten an American actress in the lead. No idea who.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 890
    thedove wrote: »
    What say you Mi6 casting directors, what if Bond 17 had been made, whose in the cast with Tim?

    What a great what if! Basing myself on the descriptions made in Ruggiero and Wilson's screenplay, here it is:


    Sir Henry Lee Ching: John Lone (The Last Emperor)
    A youngish 30 year old mixture of a Chinese father and a British aristocratic mother.
    last_emperor.jpg


    Connie Webb: Jill Hennessy (Robocop 3)
    An American adventuress in her early thirties.
    MV5BNGM5NDQ1MGQtODQwYi00Y2IxLTkwYmQtMDA4NzA1NWFlYzQyXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTc5MDI5NjE@._V1_.jpg


    Denholm Crisp: Oliver Reed (The Three Musketeers)
    A huge Anglo in his mid fifties, wearing a tent-sized Hawaiian shirt.
    MV5BN2UwNDdkOTktZmVlNC00MmQ1LTkzODQtNGZjNjY0N2Q2MDA2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjUyNDk2ODc@._V1_.jpg


    Mai Way: Joan Chen (Twin Peaks)
    A Chinese Intelligence Officer.
    48fbe839628f265f429c217ac804743c.jpg


    Nigel Yupland: Hugh Grant (Maurice)
    A young rising star in the Ministry of Defense.
    maxresdefault.jpg


    Rodin: Dolph Lundgren (Rocky IV)
    A strong looking Eastern European bodyguard type.
    MV5BZmUwMWVkMGQtNjZiYy00Mzc2LTlmMDUtNzJkNWYzNDM2OTcxXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTA0NzE2MzA@._V1_.jpg
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