And the Bondie and Klebbie for PTS in the Brosnan films...page 132

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  • Posts: 1,556
    The beginning in NK, up to Raoul in Havana, the car battle on the ice (up until things start getting invisible), Gustav Graves as a campy foil to Bond / Hugo Drax analogue...

    Oh, yes. This film is more the MR book than was the MR film.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Since62 wrote: »
    The beginning in NK, up to Raoul in Havana, the car battle on the ice (up until things start getting invisible), Gustav Graves as a campy foil to Bond / Hugo Drax analogue...

    Oh, yes. This film is more the MR book than was the MR film.

    Yes! It is sad though that all we got from the incredible MR novel was the MR and DAD films...
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,677
    The beginning in NK, up to Raoul in Havana, the car battle on the ice (up until things start getting invisible), Gustav Graves as a campy foil to Bond / Hugo Drax analogue...
    Yes. But after the good parts (in which I would not include anything after they arrive in Iceland, including the car battle) it becomes the more of a disappointing letdown. It could have continued to be a decent movie, but it just didn't.
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,619
    Earlier, I was tempted to write-in DAD as Bond’s “coldest kill” (a stake right into the heart of good film making), but never got around to voting. To recap:
    • DAF – a bad movie, partially redeemed by witty dialogue and the drop-dead sexiness of Jill St. John.
    • AVTAK – a really weak film and if I never hear Tanya Roberts yell “J-A-M-E-S” again, I won’t miss it. And unlike many posters, I’ve never been a huge fan of Christopher Walken’s Max Zorin. It does, however, have a great theme song, Patrick Macnee and I’ve always liked Binder’s title sequence.
    • NTTD – nearly a year later and I’m still trying to work through my feelings about this film. Yeah, they killed Bond at the end, the plot has large holds and I’ve never really bought into the chemistry between Craig and Léa Seydoux. Still, overall, I think it is was a well-made film. At least they tried to do something, and NTTD is an improvement on SP.
    • DAD – an ok film for the first 45 minutes or so, it completely falls off the cliff thereafter. And boy does it ever! Madonna’s theme song and fencing cameo, the invisible car, Michael Madsen phoning in a performance from a entirely different film and CGI that was poor even by 2002 standards. The whole thing just reeks. Not even Rachel Grant’s brief turn as the Chinese agent/masseuse can save it.
    DAD represents the absolute nadir of the entire series. So yeah, it gets my vote.
    :-&
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,677
    @Dwayne, I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship (I know, wrong movie).
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited August 2022 Posts: 7,526
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The beginning in NK, up to Raoul in Havana, the car battle on the ice (up until things start getting invisible), Gustav Graves as a campy foil to Bond / Hugo Drax analogue...
    Yes. But after the good parts (in which I would not include anything after they arrive in Iceland, including the car battle) it becomes the more of a disappointing letdown. It could have continued to be a decent movie, but it just didn't.

    Certainly. I was just responding to "I struggle to find one redeeming quality in that movie".

    @Dwayne I'd challenge you on NTTD having large plotholes. I can understand many criticisms of the film but I think you'd have to take an extremely loose definition of a plothole to apply it to NTTD.
  • Posts: 1,556
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The beginning in NK, up to Raoul in Havana, the car battle on the ice (up until things start getting invisible), Gustav Graves as a campy foil to Bond / Hugo Drax analogue...
    Yes. But after the good parts (in which I would not include anything after they arrive in Iceland, including the car battle) it becomes the more of a disappointing letdown. It could have continued to be a decent movie, but it just didn't.

    Certainly. I was just responding to "I struggle to find one redeeming quality in that movie".

    @Dwayne I'd challenge you on NTTD having large plotholes. I can understand many criticisms of the film but I think you'd have to take an extremely loose definition of a plothole to apply it to NTTD.

    At the end of NTTD there is a big, HUGE hole, where an island used to be...boom...bombs...yeah...
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,687
    DAD for me. I kinda like it, but I really like the others.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,940
    I've got a few plot holes @NickTwentyTwo as I love a good challenge. Maybe not holes but testing logic.

    Bond sends Madeline and Matilde away with Nomi on the raft, why? What threat do either of them face. We've established that Madeline is a competent character who even knows how to handle a gun. Why not have 2 agents storm the compound to stop the plan? Have Madeline and Matilde leave on their own.

    Why does Matilde bite Safin and then he tells her she can go away? Like you made a huge effort to get the kid why let her just walk away? Maybe its more likely the screenwriters wrote themselves into a corner?

    Why is Vesper's grave in Italy? She was English in the movie. Yes she died in Venice but why would she be buried in Italy? How or why would Madeline know where she was buried and why would she want Bond to visit her grave? How does Blofeld know that Bond will be at the grave site that day and how does Blofeld have Madeline's phone number to call her while his gang is chasing Bond?

    Of course every film has them but the more a film has them the more likely the audience will be removed from the film and fixate on the jump of logic over the plot.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,988
    The literal plot hole of the missile strike is undeniable. Though the modern definition of literal obscures that meaning.

    For the other points I can rationalize/justify. But the first five or so minutes of this says it.

  • Posts: 5,802
    DAD for me. If only for the treatment given to Moneypenny. That VR scene was painful to watch.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,389
    thedove wrote: »
    I've got a few plot holes @NickTwentyTwo as I love a good challenge. Maybe not holes but testing logic.

    Bond sends Madeline and Matilde away with Nomi on the raft, why? What threat do either of them face. We've established that Madeline is a competent character who even knows how to handle a gun. Why not have 2 agents storm the compound to stop the plan? Have Madeline and Matilde leave on their own.

    Why does Matilde bite Safin and then he tells her she can go away? Like you made a huge effort to get the kid why let her just walk away? Maybe its more likely the screenwriters wrote themselves into a corner?

    Why is Vesper's grave in Italy? She was English in the movie. Yes she died in Venice but why would she be buried in Italy? How or why would Madeline know where she was buried and why would she want Bond to visit her grave? How does Blofeld know that Bond will be at the grave site that day and how does Blofeld have Madeline's phone number to call her while his gang is chasing Bond?

    Of course every film has them but the more a film has them the more likely the audience will be removed from the film and fixate on the jump of logic over the plot.

    And I would also add that Vesper being that so young to hold such a position like she's just 23?

    And why Bond didn't returned to England after the incident in Matera, instead he went to Jamaica to retire?
    How did Bond knew that Madeleine was in Norway? He said it before that he didn't know her that much.
    How the heck that the MI6 didn't know that Madeleine has a daughter? And where's Mathilde when Madeleine was in London (did she left her alone in Norway, or someone's with her, and if, who's that?)

    Another one, was Nanobots can really be passed through a relative as been said, because Bond can kill Madeleine and Mathilde because it’s been connected through a DNA, it also killed the relatives of those SPECTRE agents who attended the funeral, then why have Madeleine kill Blofeld, if she’s not the relative, and Bond should have not killed Blofeld as they’re not biologically relatives, Oberhauser was just Bond’s step brother, so no connections of DNA.
    And why all SPECTRE agents died in Cuba when they should be just a carrier who can kill their relatives like what happened to Bond in the end when Safin infected him? And if we’re going to that Cuba scenes, then Bond should also suffer the same as those SPECTRE agents when Safin infected him at the end right?

    I could go on and on about the plot holes in this film.

  • Posts: 5,802
    Why is Vesper's grave in Italy? She was English in the movie. Yes she died in Venice but why would she be buried in Italy?

    It was her family's vault. Quite obvious if you see the names on the grave.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,988
    Alright.
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    And I would also add that Vesper being that so young to hold such a position like she's just 23?
    Likely ability. Then she was targeted by Spectre for her usefulness. And potential inexperience.
    And why Bond didn't returned to England after the incident in Matera, instead he went to Jamaica to retire?
    Jamaica is a natural further escape from his MI6 position. As a target, he seeks to remove himself from that in part to protect them from more Spectre mischief. And of course it relates to the Fleming origins.
    How did Bond knew that Madeleine was in Norway? He said it before that he didn't know her that much.
    It was openly known to him earlier when she said home. He chose not to share that with MI6 for a reason.
    How the heck that the MI6 didn't know that Madeleine has a daughter?
    She's capable and chose that for protection. Mother wolf.
    And where's Mathilde when Madeleine was in London (did she left her alone in Norway, or someone's with her, and if, who's that?)
    A solicited nanny provided services and departed when Madeleine returned.
    Another one, was Nanobots can really be passed through a relative as been said, because Bond can kill Madeleine and Mathilde because it’s been connected through a DNA, it also killed the relatives of those SPECTRE agents who attended the funeral, then why have Madeleine kill Blofeld, if she’s not the relative, and Bond should have not killed Blofeld as they’re not biologically relatives, Oberhauser was just Bond’s step brother, so no connections of DNA.
    Nanobots pass through everyone. To the target. It's immediate or an eventuality.
    And why all SPECTRE agents died in Cuba when they should be just a carrier who can kill their relatives like what happened to Bond in the end when Safin infected him?
    Spectre agents were not the carrier. They were targeted by the nanobots. And Bond wasn't. It's very specific.
    And if we’re going to that Cuba scenes, then Bond should also suffer the same as those SPECTRE agents when Safin infected him at the end right?
    Absolutely not. Bond wasn't targeted.

  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,895
    DAF is a stupid, trashy film but also a pretty fun one. And Connery is enjoying himself, along with the rest of the cast.

    DAD holds up relatively well until it gets to the ice palace--plus it has Brosnan's best performance as Bond.

    NTTD has a great start and remains enjoyable though the Cuba sequence, though afterward it turns into a sentimental white elephant of a movie. Can't fault it for ambition though.

    That leaves us with AVTAK, a film lacking even the vitality of DAF and DAD. And unlike NTTD, AVTAK is utterly formulaic. Cursed by anemic direction, tired and one-note performances, and an overall sense of exhaustion and lifelessness, AVTAK wins my vote as the worst farewell of any Bond. What's funny is that if Roger had bowed out with OP he would have had the best final film!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited August 2022 Posts: 23,527
    Has to be AVTAK, one of the most badly written of the films.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,923
    Revelator wrote: »
    AVTAK, a film lacking even the vitality of DAF and DAD. And unlike NTTD, AVTAK is utterly formulaic. Cursed by anemic direction, tired and one-note performances, and an overall sense of exhaustion and lifelessness, AVTAK wins my vote as the worst farewell of any Bond.
    Actually, when you put it like that...

  • Posts: 7,500
    I agree with most people's evaluation of DAD, except that the first hour is not "ok", it's bad as well. I am never as embarrassed on the behalf of James Bond the character as when I watch DAD, so even though DAF and AVTAK would also be worthy winners of this award, there is really only one contemder. I am sorry, but Die Another Day dies today.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    Venutius wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    AVTAK, a film lacking even the vitality of DAF and DAD. And unlike NTTD, AVTAK is utterly formulaic. Cursed by anemic direction, tired and one-note performances, and an overall sense of exhaustion and lifelessness, AVTAK wins my vote as the worst farewell of any Bond.
    Actually, when you put it like that...
    There's at least interesting subtext you can wring out of View. Can you say the same for DAD?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,402
    DAF is a guilty pleasure for me and I actually have it in my top 10.

    AVTAK is somewhat good until San Francisco. However, it completely loses steam once Bond goes to Stacey's house. Then it just becomes bland and boring.

    DAD is the first Bond I saw in the theaters. While it has not aged well and the CGI is brutal, as well as Halle Berry as Jinx. I still can't fully hate it.

    NTTD. Where do I begin? As earlier stated by a fellow member, almost a year later and I still don't know what to think. It's a very well made film with great action all around. The score is the best in the series IMO. There's more good than bad for me by a Longshot but I am still struggling on the ending.

    I'll go AVTAK since Roger should have left after OP.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    DAF is a guilty pleasure for me and I actually have it in my top 10.

    AVTAK is somewhat good until San Francisco. However, it completely loses steam once Bond goes to Stacey's house. Then it just becomes bland and boring.

    DAD is the first Bond I saw in the theaters. While it has not aged well and the CGI is brutal, as well as Halle Berry as Jinx. I still can't fully hate it.

    NTTD. Where do I begin? As earlier stated by a fellow member, almost a year later and I still don't know what to think. It's a very well made film with great action all around. The score is the best in the series IMO. There's more good than bad for me by a Longshot but I am still struggling on the ending.

    I'll go AVTAK since Roger should have left after OP.
    I think AVTAK has quite a solid final battle. If nothing else, you've gotta like He's Dangerous.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,402
    DAF is a guilty pleasure for me and I actually have it in my top 10.

    AVTAK is somewhat good until San Francisco. However, it completely loses steam once Bond goes to Stacey's house. Then it just becomes bland and boring.

    DAD is the first Bond I saw in the theaters. While it has not aged well and the CGI is brutal, as well as Halle Berry as Jinx. I still can't fully hate it.

    NTTD. Where do I begin? As earlier stated by a fellow member, almost a year later and I still don't know what to think. It's a very well made film with great action all around. The score is the best in the series IMO. There's more good than bad for me by a Longshot but I am still struggling on the ending.

    I'll go AVTAK since Roger should have left after OP.
    I think AVTAK has quite a solid final battle. If nothing else, you've gotta like He's Dangerous.

    The bridge battle is great. However the mine climax, fire truck chase and the city hall fire is not my cup of tea.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,892
    Take away the credit card lock pick and the scenes at Stacey's house are more like something from a telemovie of the time. It's a far cry from Bond arriving at Taro's villa.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,402
    QBranch wrote: »
    Take away the credit card lock pick and the scenes at Stacey's house are more like something from a telemovie of the time. It's a far cry from Bond arriving at Taro's villa.

    That's how I feel. It's like having a long lost father breaking into his daughter's house
  • Posts: 1,556
    It has been asked:

    And why Bond didn't returned to England after the incident in Matera, instead he went to Jamaica to retire?

    OK. It goes like this: England on the one hand, Jamaica on the other, as if weighing them out...hmm...yeah. Jamaica it is.


  • edited August 2022 Posts: 7,500
    Since62 wrote: »
    It has been asked:

    And why Bond didn't returned to England after the incident in Matera, instead he went to Jamaica to retire?

    OK. It goes like this: England on the one hand, Jamaica on the other, as if weighing them out...hmm...yeah. Jamaica it is.



    That's the most logical choice in the world! ;))

    If it was me, I'd just stay in Italy though...
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,923
    Yeah, but Brexit - a year after Matera, he'd've had to apply for residency in Italy or be deported. ;)
  • Die Another Day is the worst by a long shot imo. It’s the only Bond film I struggle to find even discrete elements to praise, I mostly just find it tacky and embarrassing. Maybe with enough time and distance that will evolve into “charming” but it certainly hasn’t yet. The climax on the plane in particular felt more like something you’d see in a SyFy original movie than something fit for the cinema.

    My ranking of the finals:
    1. DAF
    2. NTTD
    3. AVTAK
    4. DAD
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    So much love for DAF... I must get the names of all your oculists.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,402
    So much love for DAF... I must get the names of all your oculists.

    It's trashy but silly fun. We all know Sean did it the money but I don't think he phones in the role at all. It's just a different Bond film for him compared to his initial earlier films. And apparently he had a blast on set. Gambling, golfing, shagging Jill and Lana. Good times were had for him.
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