NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ryan wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ryan wrote: »
    I like that the ending is so divisive. It stands out for that very reason.
    Irrespective of whether I like the ending or not, I don't like the fact it's divisive, to whatever extent it is. I would prefer to see everyone enjoy it, even if it was surprising or unexpected.

    I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect everybody to enjoy something. Don't get me wrong, I know that all of us on the forum who are die hard fans would hope that the new film gives everybody the same enjoyment, but I find it always makes for good discussion when not everybody agrees. The same way some love Moonraker and some think it's ridiculous. It's what I love about Bond - everybody has different favourites, and no two fans are likely to feel the same way.

    I agree, it's not realistic. But it's nice to hope for it, at least to the extent that it doesn't signal the creative stagnation of the filmmakers.

    Yup, nothing wrong with being nice :)

    To clarify (just in case), I mean to say I'm not interested in an ending being controversial or divisive. I don't look at a film from that perspective. I just try to understand what the creative people did, and appreciate it to the extent that I can.

    Every new film has to bring something new to the table, and someone's always going to dislike it, but hopefully most of us can enjoy it.

    Absolutely. A very fair outlook. I think it probably rings stronger this time than ever before because an already long gap between films was made even longer.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    Now some negatives: I felt Mallory was a little... off. After campaigning against a government surveillance system in the last film, he runs an off-the-books bioweapon here? If it weren't for the last two films portraying him as a man of principle, this wouldn't really be a problem, but even his "For Queen and Country" justification rings hollow. And while Blofeld running SPECTRE from his incarceration was nice, the idea that MI6 never figured that out after five years seems illogical at best.

    Was it explained how Blofeld ran his operation from his cell? I felt like that must mean someone inside is helping him but we never found out.

    Blofeld was giving orders by pretending to be talking to himself and his voice was being transmitted via his bionic eyeball (are we to assume the dead eye he had at the end of Spectre was bionic, or was a surgeon after he was arrested part of Spectre? Unclear!). So I don’t think anyone inside was helping him.

    Did he have a bionic eye? Is that the one that Q was playing with? I thought Bond must've got that from Cuba.

    I thought I understood this film much better than it actually turns out I did! :D
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Now some negatives: I felt Mallory was a little... off. After campaigning against a government surveillance system in the last film, he runs an off-the-books bioweapon here? If it weren't for the last two films portraying him as a man of principle, this wouldn't really be a problem, but even his "For Queen and Country" justification rings hollow. And while Blofeld running SPECTRE from his incarceration was nice, the idea that MI6 never figured that out after five years seems illogical at best.

    Was it explained how Blofeld ran his operation from his cell? I felt like that must mean someone inside is helping him but we never found out.

    Blofeld was giving orders by pretending to be talking to himself and his voice was being transmitted via his bionic eyeball (are we to assume the dead eye he had at the end of Spectre was bionic, or was a surgeon after he was arrested part of Spectre? Unclear!). So I don’t think anyone inside was helping him.

    Did he have a bionic eye? Is that the one that Q was playing with? I thought Bond must've got that from Cuba.

    I thought I understood this film much better than it actually turns out I did! :D

    I think you're correct; I don't think the film explained very in-depth how Blofeld was getting his orders out of Belmarsh. You can hear his voice in Cuba and he's using the bionic eye (in Cuba) to see and speak it seems like (as that's how he's able to identify Bond being there).
    I think M telling Nomi to scan everything, scan the man etc. is the story telling us that Blofeld has something on him / with him that he's using to communicate outside of the prison. I thought the bionic eye in Primo was a cool way for Blofeld to be communicating with the outside world, and personally didn't feel I need much explanation for it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2021 Posts: 5,921
    In various drafts for Spectre, the final line was "We have all the time in the world", which was clearly some gloomy foreshadowing instead of two lovers just riding off. And, not surprisingly, one of the first lines from NTTD turns out to be "We have all the time in the world".

    And, for one time, the production company actually delivered on being named Everything or Nothing. They didn't compromise on the story they wanted to tell. They went all in, even if some people hate the end result.

    I agree. And now I understand why Craig didn't say "We have all the time in the world" at the end of SP. It would have been way too foreboding. It was to give Craig the opportunity to exit, gracefully and definitively, after SP if he wanted.

    Eon and the creative team are to be commended for this: NTTD ended on a very brave note. Unlike, say, the last Nolan Batman which tried to eat its cake and have it too.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    echo wrote: »
    In various drafts for Spectre, the final line was "We have all the time in the world", which was clearly some gloomy foreshadowing instead of two lovers just riding off. And, not surprisingly, one of the first lines from NTTD turns out to be "We have all the time in the world".

    And, for one time, the production company actually delivered on being named Everything or Nothing. They didn't compromise on the story they wanted to tell. They went all in, even if some people hate the end result.

    I agree. And now I understand why Craig didn't say "We have all the time in the world" at the end of SP. It would have been way too foreboding. It was to give Craig the opportunity to exit, gracefully and definitively, after SP if he wanted.

    Eon and the creative team are to be commended for this: NTTD ended on a very brave note. Unlike, say, the last Nolan Batman which tried to eat its cake and have it too.

    I know some diehard Batman fans that were upset at the ending of TDKR; Batman would more likely sacrifice himself for Gotham City, certainly not just leave it and live peacefully somewhere else, so I agree with you here. I'm glad NTTD at least made a definitive choice with it's ending.
  • @ MTM "Yes I'm completely with you on that: the action in this is pretty lacklustre I think. The opening car chase is decent (although really quite short I thought) but after that there's nothing really very special in terms of inventiveness in the stories they were telling over the course of the action, or wit and originality with Bond himself doing something we've never seen before."

    This interesting to me because I come at the movie from TSWLM. It starts and ends with Madeleine firstly her mother then at the end her child. However to make a Bond Film you need some signature moments. I felt Cary offered the rest of the movie as call backs and whereas Matera, Norway and the final moments were about James and Madeleine where his past (the action) intrudes, in Cuba without Madeleine you rely on the chemistry with Anna and the twist. Most of the action in Act 1 from the spear, the plane, the under water scene, the inflatable dingy were call backs to No/Cr/YOLT. The action was homage and echoes rather than trying to compete with those other actions movies.

    I understand why people would say they were underpowered because they were mere homage rather than cutting edge.
  • Posts: 2,400
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Now some negatives: I felt Mallory was a little... off. After campaigning against a government surveillance system in the last film, he runs an off-the-books bioweapon here? If it weren't for the last two films portraying him as a man of principle, this wouldn't really be a problem, but even his "For Queen and Country" justification rings hollow. And while Blofeld running SPECTRE from his incarceration was nice, the idea that MI6 never figured that out after five years seems illogical at best.

    Was it explained how Blofeld ran his operation from his cell? I felt like that must mean someone inside is helping him but we never found out.

    Blofeld was giving orders by pretending to be talking to himself and his voice was being transmitted via his bionic eyeball (are we to assume the dead eye he had at the end of Spectre was bionic, or was a surgeon after he was arrested part of Spectre? Unclear!). So I don’t think anyone inside was helping him.

    Did he have a bionic eye? Is that the one that Q was playing with? I thought Bond must've got that from Cuba.

    I thought I understood this film much better than it actually turns out I did! :D

    Blofeld and Primo BOTH have bionic eyes. Think of them like two smartphones that are constantly on a Facetime call with one another.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,161
    mtm wrote: »
    Those certainly were baby steps, not big of a shakeup as you make it. And Elektra is not the first female villain, that was Klebb. And if you try arguing that she doesn’t count then I guess Largo was only a henchman too.
    Zekidk wrote: »
    CountJohn wrote: »
    @CountJohn personally I'd say that's another case of blaming the actor for something that wasn't their fault. Safin was a half-baked villain, for sure (like Blofeld before him in Spectre), but I think he did well with the material given to him (like Waltz before him in Spectre). Where improvement needed, was writing.
    With a few rare exceptions like Silva all Bond villains are underwritten and it's up to the actor to make the character with the performance.
    This!

    The Craig years will not be remembered for having great villains

    I would say White, Silva and Le Chiffre are stronger than any of the Brosnan villains to be honest. With the exception of Sanchez, you'd probably have to go back to Walken to find any that match.
    I find both Carver and Trevelyan much better villains than Silva and Le Chiffre. Silva is probably the one with the most stupid plan of the entire series, I don't get the praise here.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Now some negatives: I felt Mallory was a little... off. After campaigning against a government surveillance system in the last film, he runs an off-the-books bioweapon here? If it weren't for the last two films portraying him as a man of principle, this wouldn't really be a problem, but even his "For Queen and Country" justification rings hollow. And while Blofeld running SPECTRE from his incarceration was nice, the idea that MI6 never figured that out after five years seems illogical at best.

    Was it explained how Blofeld ran his operation from his cell? I felt like that must mean someone inside is helping him but we never found out.

    Blofeld was giving orders by pretending to be talking to himself and his voice was being transmitted via his bionic eyeball (are we to assume the dead eye he had at the end of Spectre was bionic, or was a surgeon after he was arrested part of Spectre? Unclear!). So I don’t think anyone inside was helping him.

    Did he have a bionic eye? Is that the one that Q was playing with? I thought Bond must've got that from Cuba.

    I thought I understood this film much better than it actually turns out I did! :D

    Blofeld and Primo BOTH have bionic eyes. Think of them like two smartphones that are constantly on a Facetime call with one another.

    Yeah that makes sense, I never twigged it while watching the film.
    They could have done a bit more with that- like you know how at the end of Rogue Nation Simon Pegg talks to Cruise as if he's the villain, and then we work out that he's repeating what the villain is saying in his ear? (Ripped off from Sherlock!) Primo could have talked to Bond more as if he's Blofeld- imagine if he'd called Bond a cuckoo or something. Bond would have been confused and then it would have become clear- he's Blofeld's proxy.

    It might even have been more interesting if he stayed loyal to Blofeld and turned against Safin at the end.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    I wonder how many of those critical of the ending caught that Bond’s sacrifice mirrors Vesper’s at the end of Casino Royale. Apparently women are disposable, but men are irreplaceable.
  • LizWLizW England
    Posts: 30
    I walked into the theater with zero spoilers, and I walked out of it satisfied. Craig's Bond has always sat separate for me, essentially an alternative Bond, and this film has only strengthened that. I've known since the first trailers that this wouldn't have a happy ending, and I was grateful for that.

    Now if only Safin was a better villain...

    I won't say the film's runtime does it any favors. It takes something like an hour an a half for Bond to even learn Safin's name, and then they don't even meet until the last act. I enjoy longer movies, don't get me wrong, and would gladly sit through every LOTR extended edition back to back, but NTTD didn't really make good use of its length like those films do.

    I won't lie that ever since she was revealed in the trailers, I was positive Nomi would be a traitor, and holy hell was I glad I was wrong. I was also glad that she never stole the spotlight. This was Bond's movie from start to finish and never did she feel as though she were being set up as the future of the franchise.

    Was I the only one that felt Bond talked more in this movie? I swear he had more lines than in the last two films combined.

    Now some negatives: I felt Mallory was a little... off. After campaigning against a government surveillance system in the last film, he runs an off-the-books bioweapon here? If it weren't for the last two films portraying him as a man of principle, this wouldn't really be a problem, but even his "For Queen and Country" justification rings hollow. And while Blofeld running SPECTRE from his incarceration was nice, the idea that MI6 never figured that out after five years seems illogical at best.

    On the easter eggs side, are we to assume Robert Brown's M was now a predecessor to Judi Dench's in the Craig era as well? That was a nice, yet odd thing to have his portrait on the wall.

    To sum it up, I loved this movie. It was everything I'd wanted from the finale of the Craig era, and now that it's over, we can begin anew with a new Bond, no origin rehash, and a return to form.

    I agree completely about Mallory (I hate it when they muck about with characters like this for the sake of the plot). As well as his principled dialogue in the previous films, he's supposed to have been a Lieutenant Colonel in the SAS and I really can't see him running a black laboratory, somehow. I also didn't think the 'MI6 didn't know about Blofeld' thing was remotely realistic - I mean, I know this is a Bond film, but credibility has to have a limit even there. I should think the next few films could focus entirely on the Parliamentary enquiry as to why the head of MI6 has been running a secret bioweapons programme in the middle of London, allows a criminal mastermind to direct its release from his cell, and then blows up an island in someone else's territory with the help of the Royal Navy. I should think that will merit a question in the House at the very least....

    But I like the portraits and as the New Yorker remarked, "“Q, hack into Blofeld’s bionic eye”—a strong candidate for the most Bond-tastic line ever spoken. (Top marks to Fiennes for saying it with a straight face.)"
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,548
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory.

    Bond is standing on a platform above the silo doors. Remember, these are smart bombs that are being launched, and they can hit their target with precision and with little destruction outside their target. The target is actually below. A couple of things to remember: according to Q, the concrete and steel of this facility would withstand the impact of the missiles (They'd just bounce off). So the platform on which Bond is standing might not get destroyed from below. In fact, the destruction will be inside and not outside. Instead, what Bond faced was large blowback of dust, wind, and a fireball--likely enough to kill him. But depending on how close he was, he could have been blown back off the platform; a helluva an impact, but if he survived the fall from the bridge in SF, he could survive that.

    Now, about the communications. Bond's "vitals" went dead right after the explosion. That would seem to make this case-closed. However, his watch was capable of disrupting that signal to Q, and upon the force of the explosion, the watch easily could have been activated, killing the telecommunications. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

    So I thought long and hard about this. There were lines in both SF and SP that suggest some of this odd duality between life and death and existential choices:
    • Mallory said to Bond: Why don't you stay dead. Go live peacefully somewhere. Few field agents get to leave that cleanly.
    • Silva asked Bond what his hobby was. Bond said, "Resurrection."
    • The title card at the beginning of SP read: "The dead are alive."
    • On the train, Madeleine asked Bond if this life is what he wants, always living in the shadows, being hunted. Bond said he didn't have much choice. Madeleine said he always has a choice.
    • Safin makes a point about choices, and that Bond made choices that led him there. The film is about a struggle with choice and free will. It's existential. Bond's fate is about choice: but is that choice to accept death or to accept a life "after death."

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.



  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    Having watched it again, I really wish more of the film was set in Matera, Jamaica and Cuba. Something about those locations just feel right with Bond

    My biggest gripe with the film is the best bits end too abruptly, and the bits that aren't so good just seem to drag on.
    Sometimes the drastic shift in tone, can feel so jarring it almost takes you out the film entirely
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 14,861
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Having watched it again, I really wish more of the film was set in Matera, Jamaica and Cuba. Something about those locations just feel right with Bond

    My biggest gripe with the film is the best bits end too abruptly, and the bits that aren't so good just seem to drag on.
    Sometimes the drastic shift in tone, can feel so jarring it almost takes you out the film entirely

    I could have taken a bit more Jamaica, certainly. Norway isn't really used in a very interesting way and doesn't have much personality in the film, which is a shame.
  • Posts: 3,275
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory.

    Bond is standing on a platform above the silo doors. Remember, these are smart bombs that are being launched, and they can hit their target with precision and with little destruction outside their target. The target is actually below. A couple of things to remember: according to Q, the concrete and steel of this facility would withstand the impact of the missiles (They'd just bounce off). So the platform on which Bond is standing might not get destroyed from below. In fact, the destruction will be inside and not outside. Instead, what Bond faced was large blowback of dust, wind, and a fireball--likely enough to kill him. But depending on how close he was, he could have been blown back off the platform; a helluva an impact, but if he survived the fall from the bridge in SF, he could survive that.

    Now, about the communications. Bond's "vitals" went dead right after the explosion. That would seem to make this case-closed. However, his watch was capable of disrupting that signal to Q, and upon the force of the explosion, the watch easily could have been activated, killing the telecommunications. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

    So I thought long and hard about this. There were lines in both SF and SP that suggest some of this odd duality between life and death and existential choices:
    • Mallory said to Bond: Why don't you stay dead. Go live peacefully somewhere. Few field agents get to leave that cleanly.
    • Silva asked Bond what his hobby was. Bond said, "Resurrection."
    • The title card at the beginning of SP read: "The dead are alive."
    • On the train, Madeleine asked Bond if this life is what he wants, always living in the shadows, being hunted. Bond said he didn't have much choice. Madeleine said he always has a choice.
    • Safin makes a point about choices, and that Bond made choices that led him there. The film is about a struggle with choice and free will. It's existential. Bond's fate is about choice: but is that choice to accept death or to accept a life "after death."

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.



    Interesting theory. I hope you are right, as this would significantly shift my opinion of the film if true.

    There was also another clue that this may lead to the end of the YOLT novel, with Safin's island located between Japan and Russia, which is mentioned a couple of times I think. And we all know in the novel Bond sets sail off to Russia from Japan.

    Maybe the Sparrows Tears chapter will be adapted after all in the next film, leading up to the brilliant opening of TMWTGG novel. Who knows.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,842
    While I know some people would really like to happen, I think it would mostly do the opposite of what it seems to do for those who aren't a fan of the ending we got, because all that emotion and conversation would all be for nothing. Not to mention it would make no sense, and I know people have said: "they managed to keep continuity in the old films", but this is completely different. As I've said before, this era has addressed more details of Bond's arc; his age, his retirement, and now his death.

    To carry that on with an actor who will almost definitely be younger would be a big mistake, and would undo the chance EON has now to really refresh things for a more modern audience as well as the fans who've been tied to Craig's era for so long now.

    I've also said this before but whether he died or not, Bond 26 would've always been a reboot - in my eyes anyway - because there was so much character and story that you just can't carry on while attempting to keep things fresh.
  • Posts: 631
    B26 might (might) pick up from the end of DAD.

    There are some of us on here who think that DAF actually picks up from YOLT, and that OHMSS therefore does not exist in that particular continuity.

    So this might be the same principle, but done on a grander scale. Instead of a single film being pushed into a different continuity, it could be five films.

    Yes I can see problems with this, but am floating it as an idea.
  • Posts: 631
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory.

    Bond is standing on a platform above the silo doors. Remember, these are smart bombs that are being launched, and they can hit their target with precision and with little destruction outside their target. The target is actually below. A couple of things to remember: according to Q, the concrete and steel of this facility would withstand the impact of the missiles (They'd just bounce off). So the platform on which Bond is standing might not get destroyed from below. In fact, the destruction will be inside and not outside. Instead, what Bond faced was large blowback of dust, wind, and a fireball--likely enough to kill him. But depending on how close he was, he could have been blown back off the platform; a helluva an impact, but if he survived the fall from the bridge in SF, he could survive that.

    Now, about the communications. Bond's "vitals" went dead right after the explosion. That would seem to make this case-closed. However, his watch was capable of disrupting that signal to Q, and upon the force of the explosion, the watch easily could have been activated, killing the telecommunications. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

    So I thought long and hard about this. There were lines in both SF and SP that suggest some of this odd duality between life and death and existential choices:
    • Mallory said to Bond: Why don't you stay dead. Go live peacefully somewhere. Few field agents get to leave that cleanly.
    • Silva asked Bond what his hobby was. Bond said, "Resurrection."
    • The title card at the beginning of SP read: "The dead are alive."
    • On the train, Madeleine asked Bond if this life is what he wants, always living in the shadows, being hunted. Bond said he didn't have much choice. Madeleine said he always has a choice.
    • Safin makes a point about choices, and that Bond made choices that led him there. The film is about a struggle with choice and free will. It's existential. Bond's fate is about choice: but is that choice to accept death or to accept a life "after death."

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.



    Not sure I agree, but I nevertheless have to compliment you on mulling this over so deeply. Very thought-provoking.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1,165
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory.

    Bond is standing on a platform above the silo doors. Remember, these are smart bombs that are being launched, and they can hit their target with precision and with little destruction outside their target. The target is actually below. A couple of things to remember: according to Q, the concrete and steel of this facility would withstand the impact of the missiles (They'd just bounce off). So the platform on which Bond is standing might not get destroyed from below. In fact, the destruction will be inside and not outside. Instead, what Bond faced was large blowback of dust, wind, and a fireball--likely enough to kill him. But depending on how close he was, he could have been blown back off the platform; a helluva an impact, but if he survived the fall from the bridge in SF, he could survive that.

    Now, about the communications. Bond's "vitals" went dead right after the explosion. That would seem to make this case-closed. However, his watch was capable of disrupting that signal to Q, and upon the force of the explosion, the watch easily could have been activated, killing the telecommunications. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

    So I thought long and hard about this. There were lines in both SF and SP that suggest some of this odd duality between life and death and existential choices:
    • Mallory said to Bond: Why don't you stay dead. Go live peacefully somewhere. Few field agents get to leave that cleanly.
    • Silva asked Bond what his hobby was. Bond said, "Resurrection."
    • The title card at the beginning of SP read: "The dead are alive."
    • On the train, Madeleine asked Bond if this life is what he wants, always living in the shadows, being hunted. Bond said he didn't have much choice. Madeleine said he always has a choice.
    • Safin makes a point about choices, and that Bond made choices that led him there. The film is about a struggle with choice and free will. It's existential. Bond's fate is about choice: but is that choice to accept death or to accept a life "after death."

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.



    Not sure I agree, but I nevertheless have to compliment you on mulling this over so deeply. Very thought-provoking.
    I believe the opening from The Man With the Golden Gun can be adapted in a way that it does not overtly reference No Time to Die but could be a continuation of that canon if you so choose. All we need to a reference to Bond being presumed dead following a suicide mission and we've got a banger of an opening to introduce a new actor. That way, everyone can be happy: Daniel gets his dramatic ending, and the franchise purists get their immortal superspy and avoid another hard "reboot".
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,385
    Minion wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory.

    Bond is standing on a platform above the silo doors. Remember, these are smart bombs that are being launched, and they can hit their target with precision and with little destruction outside their target. The target is actually below. A couple of things to remember: according to Q, the concrete and steel of this facility would withstand the impact of the missiles (They'd just bounce off). So the platform on which Bond is standing might not get destroyed from below. In fact, the destruction will be inside and not outside. Instead, what Bond faced was large blowback of dust, wind, and a fireball--likely enough to kill him. But depending on how close he was, he could have been blown back off the platform; a helluva an impact, but if he survived the fall from the bridge in SF, he could survive that.

    Now, about the communications. Bond's "vitals" went dead right after the explosion. That would seem to make this case-closed. However, his watch was capable of disrupting that signal to Q, and upon the force of the explosion, the watch easily could have been activated, killing the telecommunications. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

    So I thought long and hard about this. There were lines in both SF and SP that suggest some of this odd duality between life and death and existential choices:
    • Mallory said to Bond: Why don't you stay dead. Go live peacefully somewhere. Few field agents get to leave that cleanly.
    • Silva asked Bond what his hobby was. Bond said, "Resurrection."
    • The title card at the beginning of SP read: "The dead are alive."
    • On the train, Madeleine asked Bond if this life is what he wants, always living in the shadows, being hunted. Bond said he didn't have much choice. Madeleine said he always has a choice.
    • Safin makes a point about choices, and that Bond made choices that led him there. The film is about a struggle with choice and free will. It's existential. Bond's fate is about choice: but is that choice to accept death or to accept a life "after death."

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.



    Not sure I agree, but I nevertheless have to compliment you on mulling this over so deeply. Very thought-provoking.
    I believe the opening from The Man With the Golden Gun can be adapted in a way that it does not overtly reference No Time to Die but could be a continuation of that canon if you so choose. All we need to a reference to Bond being presumed dead following a suicide mission and we've got a banger of an opening to introduce a new actor. That way, everyone can be happy: Daniel gets his dramatic ending, and the timeline obsessed get their immortal superspy and avoid another hard "reboot".

    I was just thinking the exact same thing. I want to do another viewing of NTTD, but I can't just yet, even as a great film that it was. I know it's only a film character but actually seeing him die was quite striking for me. Heroic or not, to save his child, which was completely understandable. It's tough for me to even watch any Bond film at the moment.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Minion wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory.

    Bond is standing on a platform above the silo doors. Remember, these are smart bombs that are being launched, and they can hit their target with precision and with little destruction outside their target. The target is actually below. A couple of things to remember: according to Q, the concrete and steel of this facility would withstand the impact of the missiles (They'd just bounce off). So the platform on which Bond is standing might not get destroyed from below. In fact, the destruction will be inside and not outside. Instead, what Bond faced was large blowback of dust, wind, and a fireball--likely enough to kill him. But depending on how close he was, he could have been blown back off the platform; a helluva an impact, but if he survived the fall from the bridge in SF, he could survive that.

    Now, about the communications. Bond's "vitals" went dead right after the explosion. That would seem to make this case-closed. However, his watch was capable of disrupting that signal to Q, and upon the force of the explosion, the watch easily could have been activated, killing the telecommunications. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

    So I thought long and hard about this. There were lines in both SF and SP that suggest some of this odd duality between life and death and existential choices:
    • Mallory said to Bond: Why don't you stay dead. Go live peacefully somewhere. Few field agents get to leave that cleanly.
    • Silva asked Bond what his hobby was. Bond said, "Resurrection."
    • The title card at the beginning of SP read: "The dead are alive."
    • On the train, Madeleine asked Bond if this life is what he wants, always living in the shadows, being hunted. Bond said he didn't have much choice. Madeleine said he always has a choice.
    • Safin makes a point about choices, and that Bond made choices that led him there. The film is about a struggle with choice and free will. It's existential. Bond's fate is about choice: but is that choice to accept death or to accept a life "after death."

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.



    Not sure I agree, but I nevertheless have to compliment you on mulling this over so deeply. Very thought-provoking.
    I believe the opening from The Man With the Golden Gun can be adapted in a way that it does not overtly reference No Time to Die but could be a continuation of that canon if you so choose. All we need to a reference to Bond being presumed dead following a suicide mission and we've got a banger of an opening to introduce a new actor. That way, everyone can be happy: Daniel gets his dramatic ending, and the timeline obsessed get their immortal superspy and avoid another hard "reboot".

    They took that for Skyfall though I would say- it may feel a bit samey to do it again.
  • Posts: 226
    You don't need another hard reboot, just have a new actor playing Bond going on a new mission in the next movie. Doesn't need to be that complicated.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    I've got to say I'm not a big fan of Bond's wardrobe in NTTD. I never normally notice but it stood out to me this time
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 357
    Zekidk wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Those certainly were baby steps, not big of a shakeup as you make it. And Elektra is not the first female villain, that was Klebb. And if you try arguing that she doesn’t count then I guess Largo was only a henchman too.
    Zekidk wrote: »
    CountJohn wrote: »
    @CountJohn personally I'd say that's another case of blaming the actor for something that wasn't their fault. Safin was a half-baked villain, for sure (like Blofeld before him in Spectre), but I think he did well with the material given to him (like Waltz before him in Spectre). Where improvement needed, was writing.
    With a few rare exceptions like Silva all Bond villains are underwritten and it's up to the actor to make the character with the performance.
    This!

    The Craig years will not be remembered for having great villains

    I would say White, Silva and Le Chiffre are stronger than any of the Brosnan villains to be honest. With the exception of Sanchez, you'd probably have to go back to Walken to find any that match.
    I find both Carver and Trevelyan much better villains than Silva and Le Chiffre. Silva is probably the one with the most stupid plan of the entire series, I don't get the praise here.

    He's only talking about the actors level of personal charisma, not the quality of his characters master plan.

    However I thought Sean Bean and Robert Carlisle were pretty good myself, but couldn't take Jonathan Pryce seriously

    I agree LeChiffre is horribly under written, and feel Silva has enough to work with, but for me Mr White was a non-entity (again referring to the actor, not the character) about on the level of the bland villain in FYEO

    We all see things slightly differently
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 357
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory...

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.

    Not sure I agree, but I nevertheless have to compliment you on mulling this over so deeply. Very thought-provoking.

    Or how about...

    After the explosion the multi talented nanobots collect his scattered molecules together and reassemble him in time for Bond 26, except they don't get the cosmetic aspects quite right and he ends up looking like Ryan Reynolds

    Controversy, not the American Bond everyone in the UK has always feared might take over, but a Canadian Bond!

    3112_medium.jpg?1536780639
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,898
    Yeah I really hated what they did with M in this one, definitely didn’t jive with his character at all.

    I don't know about hated but, yes, M's role in the development of Heracles jars with his character, actions and expressed beliefs/values in SP. Would've been less of a disconnect if M had been a dissenting voice that'd gone along with it only grudgingly and had spent a long time cursing himself for not standing his ground and that's why he'd turned to the grog. He knew better, but went along with the system he's part of, etc. Potential there to show a conflicted Mallory, struggling to reconcile his management role within an institution and his personal instincts. Mallory's ex-SAS, after all, not a career bureaucrat - he's had to force himself into that role and it's not always a comfortable fit. Fiennes could've conveyed all that really well.
  • Posts: 7,500
    Seve wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    So, this came to me via a colleague who saw the film and was not entirely convinced of Bond's death. Take it with a grain of salt. But according to him, it is "possible" that Bond survived this. I am NOT arguing that Bond survived, just throwing out this alternate theory...

    Again, I am not at all saying that Bond survived. But there have been enough clues in these films to suggest that life and death are not what they seem at all.

    Not sure I agree, but I nevertheless have to compliment you on mulling this over so deeply. Very thought-provoking.

    Or how about...

    After the explosion the multi talented nanobots collect his scattered molecules together and reassemble him in time for Bond 26, except they don't get the cosmetic aspects quite right and he ends up looking like Ryan Reynolds

    Controversy, not the American Bond everyone in the UK has always feared might take over, but a Canadian Bond!

    3112_medium.jpg?1536780639


    I think Bond26 should be set at Hogwarts school of magic where Craig's soul can float around the building.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I've got to say I'm not a big fan of Bond's wardrobe in NTTD. I never normally notice but it stood out to me this time

    The last act of the movie, I swear he was cosplaying as Nathan Drake.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,459
    I like the wardrobe decisions in all of NTTD for all characters.
    I do like Bond's outfits very much. I think he looks great. And no, I don't think that for every film.
  • Yeah I dug his outfits in this. They are all very distinctive. I thought it was funny that we only ever get that one brief shot of him in the suede jacket where he unveils the V8, though.
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