NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,023
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I've mentioned this on another page, I think there's a lot more to it than just him not being able to be with Madeleine and his daughter. To me, it's a perfect end to his character arc. In Casino Royale, with the death of Vesper, we were shown this idea that Bond can't really have that kind of life. And now in No Time To Die, he's given just a hint of what he could have, but at the end of the day, he dies, because James Bond can't escape the life he's built for himself.

    He'd never be able to escape it, even when Madeleine basically says there's no one left to hurt us, he literally has this virus now, and that in many ways could be loosely interpreted as this part of him that will never go away, just like his life as a 00 and a killer, so in the end, it killed him, and I think this was his way of admitting that, and saying if I really can't have this life that I want, then I'll just accept it and die. Obviously, there's a lot more story significance with the literal fact that if he tried to see Madeleine or Mathilde, or even interacted with someone who then interacted with them, he would kill them, so he'd rather die than let that happen.

    I just think it's a lot more poetic, and makes sense in the arc that we've received throughout the Craig-era.

    I do appreciate this @Denbigh. It’s always nice to see positive views.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Fans: EON needs to go back to Fleming!
    EON: We've loaded the new film with Fleming material.
    Fans: When we say "Fleming," we just mean Bond should grimace and punch people in the neck for two hours.


    That's simply not an accurate assessment of people's grievances with the film. It's a total straw man argument. I am not as against the film as many on here, but not one person has made that claim. For one thing, grimacing and punching people in the neck is the thing Craig's Bond does more than anything else.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 6,677
    bondsum wrote: »
    I absolutely love your posts @Univex and @jetsetwilly. But @Univex, you're forgetting Tiffany Case who told that kid to blow up his pants in DAF. But I get your point and I agree with it.

    lol, true, forgot about that one ;)

    Still, this is what should happen when a kid shows up in a Bond film:

    roger-moore-river.gif


    Trust me, Sir. Rog always knows better ;)
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited October 2021 Posts: 5,869
    patb wrote: »
    @Denbigh All fair, another point. Once we have different universes with unique character arcs, we starts to have different Bonds. So when you say Band cant have that kind of life, are we discussing the DC Bond exclusively or the wider James Bond. Does the DC Bond have character traits unique to him? So when , in future , we have discussions about James Bond, we have to define which one we are talking about? Was the PB Bond equally trapped as you described or happier with his life? All interesting stuff
    I'd say it's exclusive to Daniel Craig. I mean it's definitely a bigger aspect of his character and arc specifically.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 574
    This thread is more depressing than the movie.
  • Posts: 6,677
    00Heaven wrote: »
    This thread is more depressing than the movie.

    Or at least as ;)

    I'd say that makes sense, considering the movie.
  • Posts: 501
    Quite innocent to think that so much unprotected sex wouldn't end up in a pregnancy. It was a matter of time to end up seeing this in the movies. There were two choices: Bond knows nothing about the kid or Bond knows about the kid and takes care of her (in this case). They compromised and opted for Bond not to know anything up to a point. And even then Madeleine didn't want to acknowledge that she was his until the very end. I find it quite fitting, to be honest.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,028
    00Heaven wrote: »
    This thread is more depressing than the movie.

    Not exactly unexpected, considering the bold steps the movie takes. I imagine we'll be in for strong debate about it for years.

    "Fosterbrothergate" seems like a blissful memory in comparison.
  • Posts: 6,677
    00Heaven wrote: »
    This thread is more depressing than the movie.

    Not exactly unexpected, considering the bold steps the movie takes. I imagine we'll be in for strong debate about it for years.

    "Fosterbrothergate" seems like a blissful memory in comparison.

    Who would've imagine it?

    I don't want to imagine what they'll conjure up next...
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,869
    While I personally enjoyed it, I can understand your hesitancies with a child in a James Bond movie. I myself am not usually a fan of children in most films, unless the story is actually about them. When I was hearing the rumours about the inclusion of Mathilde, I was definitely worried - but I think it surprisingly worked for me.

    The one aspect I didn't like was when she bit Safin, which was fine, but I was slightly confused by him being like "Ok, just go." I was left a bit perplexed by that.
  • Posts: 6,677
    0iker0 wrote: »
    Quite innocent to think that so much unprotected sex wouldn't end up in a pregnancy. It was a matter of time to end up seeing this in the movies. There were two choices: Bond knows nothing about the kid or Bond knows about the kid and takes care of her (in this case). They compromised and opted for Bond not to know anything up to a point. And even then Madeleine didn't want to acknowledge that she was his until the very end. I find it quite fitting, to be honest.

    Damn, you raise a superb question. So, gone is the need to educate masses on unprotected sex, std's and unwanted pregnancy. The Dalton years were a bust, then.

    ;)
  • Posts: 3,333
    Univex wrote: »
    roger-moore-river.gif

    Trust me, Sir. Rog always knows better ;)
    :-j Absolutely. In fact, both scenes appear to demonstrate that kids don't belong in Bond's adult world. Even when I was a kid myself, I always liked that about Bond.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 6,677
    bondsum wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    roger-moore-river.gif

    Trust me, Sir. Rog always knows better ;)
    :-j Absolutely. In fact, both scenes appear to demonstrate that kids don't belong in Bond's adult world. Even when I was a kid myself, I always liked that about Bond.

    Me too. One of the things that always attracted me to Bond was the notion that it was slightly meant for adults, and it didn't feature kids or kids stuff, partially because I've never felt really like a kid. Always wanted to be an adult and wanted adult stuff. Wanted to be James Bond. Just not
    daddy
    Bond. Not ever.

    That being said, the
    kid
    was Daniel Craig's
    spitting image
    . Brilliant piece of casting there.
  • HerrBondHerrBond Berlin
    Posts: 50
    Re: Nomi

    I think my biggest issue with the character is not her being 007, or her attitude and her lack of growth over the film. No, my biggest issue is that you could take her out of the film almost entirely and the story would not be any worse off. She has almost zero impact on the advancement of the plot. She's on the periphery, gets a scene or two to trade barbs with Bond and then retreats back to the periphery again. The film's focus on resolving Bond's personal arc with Madeleine etc. means that the thematic resonance of Nomi taking over his number is pushed into the background when you could easily make a film out of it all by itself. She's not really a character in the end, at all. She's a distraction to the story rather than an aid to it, which is a shame as Lynch sold us something that sounded far more interesting in the lead up to the film's release, and it just wasn't there for me and ultimately slowed an already bloated film down.
    Yes, Nomi's character is one of the biggest problems of the movie. Instead of helping Bond at the end she is leaving with the boat. Nomi the MI6 Agent, the new 007! What a ridiculous story.
    What the hell did the 5 screenwriters do the whole time?
  • Posts: 4,599
    Yes, again, very clumky writing
    "how do we get her to escape and find her mum?"
    " I know, she bites him on the hand and he let's her go"
    "Brilliant"
    Considering his special connection with Mads, it just made zero sense. the kid was, at the very least, a huge bargaining chip. It tends to undermine any threat and menace with the character. Imagine trying to escape from Darth Vader or Thanos using that method. (or Dr No !!)
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    How old is Safin supposed to be in the opening scene? I assumed he is suppose to be an adult but in the rest of the film he looks the same age as Madeline. I may well have missed something or just got it wrong...
  • Posts: 6,677
    HerrBond wrote: »
    What the hell did the 5 screenwriters do the whole time?

    Laughed their brains off with Phoebe's sex innuendos offstage, and forgot all logic and reasoning at the door.

    Strangely enough, people who were critical of SF's plot holes seem to be forgiving this sort of stuff. I say, give them time. There'll be plenty to discuss. And plenty of time for it.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited October 2021 Posts: 5,869
    patb wrote: »
    "how do we get her to escape and find her mum?"
    " I know, she bites him on the hand and he let's her go"
    "Brilliant"
    Yeah, that was, for me, the weakest part of that whole sequence. Apart from that I really enjoyed the rest.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,028
    How old is Safin supposed to be in the opening scene? I assumed he is suppose to be an adult but in the rest of the film he looks the same age as Madeline. I may well have missed something or just got it wrong...

    I was wondering this as well. I assumed he was in his late teens, early 20s in the PTS. Malek himself is 40 so I guess with the facial scarring Safin could pass as being in his mid-40s.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Ah ok. I assumed he was younger in real life and in the film. Maybe all those pre-film rumours about clones etc got into my head and I thought he might not have aged.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited October 2021 Posts: 5,869
    It was probably one of the main reasons they chose to have the mask. As well as it being aesthetically pleasing.
  • Posts: 4,599
    Some fans (understandably) are so upset that even a scene where Bond gets fed through a mincer would not convice them. I think the writers bent over backwards to prevent this line of thinking. Best not to confuse the Dark Knight with the Black Knight.
  • Posts: 6,677
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Definitive
    death? I'm very sure it was meant to be, but I've watched Batman disappear in a cloud of smoke in just as unlikely, and stranger, circumstances. And if this was MR, would anybody have batted two eyes to find out that Moore/Bond had been beamed up to Drax's satellite at the instant of his supposed demise?

    You people see it your way, I'll see it mine. I'll take my YOLT ending any way that I can get it.

    Exactly the way I'm rationalising it, my friend :)

    He just escaped
    parenthood and that complicated psychiatrist (who, btw, was a clinical psychologist in SP, and now is a psychiatrist, which are two very different things.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It was probably one of the main reasons they chose to have the mask. As well as it being aesthetically pleasing.

    I have no problem with it, just it didn't make sense to me. The mask is fine, but he doesn't seem a younger version of himself. Nor does it explain how he survived the shooting. Anyway, it's fine.

    The problem is that the film is not really about his plan. Or at least, not enough. Because they have to cram everything else in.

    I thought Malek was great, and wanted to know more about him and his plan (why the mask? why the garden? why did Blofeld want his family dead? etc). But we don't really get it.
  • bondywondy wrote: »
    The film was written on the hoof and by committee from a basic script that was never properly polished, hence the feeling of fragmentation between scenes and some lack of continuity. This is why some parts work, others don't but on the whole it's messy.

    Unless you have the clout of Quentin Tarantino, M. Night Shyamalan, Christopher Nolan you're never gonna have a Bond film made by one screenwriter/director. I'm assuming the likes of Tarantino are rare in Hollywood. Almost every big budget film has multiple writers (some uncredited).

    Unless Eon capitulate on an unprecedented scale and let Christopher Nolan write the screenplay (maybe with his brother), you'll never get Bond films written without a committee of writers.

    I would put a bet on Nolan being a likely choice to write and direct Bond 26. Co-writer anyway. A rebooted Bond is the idea time for Nolan to do a Bond film. Place your bets!

    I'd really like to see that, but I doubt EON would take the gamble or maybe they could poach Chris McQuarrie from M:I?
  • Posts: 3,333
    Univex wrote: »
    Me too. One of the things that always attracted me to Bond was the notion that it was slightly meant for adults, and it didn't feature kids or kids stuff, partially because I've never felt really like a kid. Always wanted to be an adult and wanted adult stuff. Wanted to be James Bond.
    That was most definitely one of it's attractions. I can remember that a lot of parents in the UK wouldn't allow their kids to go see a Bond movie due to the perceived level of sex and violence featured in them. I was lucky as my father loved what he'd seen of Lazenby's Bond and wanted to see more, so we caught up on all the past Connery Bonds I'd missed out on in-between OHMSS and DAF at the cinema.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,869
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It was probably one of the main reasons they chose to have the mask. As well as it being aesthetically pleasing.
    I thought Malek was great, and wanted to know more about him and his plan (why the mask? why the garden? why did Blofeld want his family dead? etc). But we don't really get it.
    I agree, he definitely needed to be fleshed out more and probably given more to do. Considering the mask and where his island was, it would've been interesting to understand his connection to Japan.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 303
    If you listen to the Bond theme you know Bond never dies. It's not a theme tune about loss. It's about heroism.


    What Eon did is unforgivable. Sure, it's just a film, in the grand scheme of life it doesn't mean much but to me killing James Bond would be like Barbara Broccoli having a favourite photo from her childhood. An old Polaroid photo of her on holiday or from school.

    One day she is rummaging through her possessions and she can't find that photo. She asks her partner or close family member "you know that old photo of me on my last day at school saying farewell to my friends for the last time... I can't find it."

    And her relative says "oh that. It was a bit damaged so I threw it away. Hope you don't mind."

    And Barbara Broccoli nods a forlorn nod. She walks away with sadness in her eyes. She goes into her bedroom and cries.

    That's what she has done to the franchise.

    A complete lack of emotional respect shown to the franchise. Forget Daniel Craig for a moment, he's ephemeral, just another Bond actor that will come and go from the Bond stage. It's not the fact Craig's Bond dies as much as the character is *deemed expendable*. Barbara Broccoli and her submissive half brother MG Wilson see Bond as disposable. He can die, who cares? Forget any emotional attachment. Just kill him off to make NTTD seem profound, tragic. Well, it's not because we all know the death of James Bond is a gimmick to give Craig an exit strategy from the franchise. Bond will be alive and well in Bond 26 but that doesn't justify killing him off in Bond 25.

  • After hearing that there would be a ‘potentially divisive’ risk taken this time round, I imagined something along the lines of the Safin character turning out to be Bond’s son, leaving Bond struggling to come to terms with having killed his own offspring in the line of duty. Although, having read only the Fleming novels and Colonel Sun, I’ve no idea whether such an obvious twist has already been used by one of the continuation authors.
  • Posts: 3,279
    Fans: “They should make it more like the Mission: Impossible movies!”
    EON: Bond goes rogue, missions are personal, etc
    Fans: “WAIT”

    I'm thankfully not one of those fans.
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