What went wrong with QUANTUM OF SOLACE?

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  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 9,135
    Agree on Bond doing everything humanly possible and more to save Vesper--failing completely is part of what he can't let go. And he blames himself, yes.

    22-Quantum.of.Solace.2008.720p.BluRay.nHD.x264-NhaNc3.mkv_006090189.jpg?type=w2
    Goldfinger, Ian Fleming, 1958.
    Chapter 16 - The Last and the Biggest
    THE WINGS of a dove, the heavenly choir, Hark the Herald Angels Sing - what else ought he to remember about Paradise? It was all so exactly like what he had been told in the nursery - this sensation of flying, the darkness, the drone of the million harps. He really must try and remember the dope about the place. Let's see now, one got to the Pearly Gates...

    A deep fatherly voice said, almost in his ear, 'This is your captain speaking.' (Well, well. Who was this. Saint Peter?) 'We are coming in to land now. Will you please fasten your seat belts and extinguish your cigarettes. Thank you.'

    There must be a whole lot of them, going up together. Would Tilly be on the same trip? Bond squirmed with embarrassment. How would he introduce her to the others, to Vesper for instance? And when it came to the point, which would he like the best? But perhaps it would be a big place with countries and towns. There was probably no more reason why he should run into one of his former girl friends here than there had been on earth. But still there were a lot of people he'd better avoid until he got settled in and found out the form. Perhaps, with so much love about, these things wouldn't matter. Perhaps one just loved all the girls one met. Hm. Tricky business.

    With these unworthy thoughts in his mind, Bond relapsed into unconsciousness.

    TTx4-BLpedeM_HTfEEt6ce3coWj8tvVF-f-taYvJbT3mHta1wKaFP0-f8zoVYylnaYrlGaIbeAOKmwqFfBWxujlMbKmhpCgXiV4G_3c_aS7hBpt00bT1Wt2hLxZunFtuag
    On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Ian Fleming, 1963.
    Chapter 2 - Gran Turismo
    He leaned forward and flicked down the red switch. The moan of the blower died away and there was silence in the car as he motored along, easing his tense muscles. He wondered if the supercharger had damaged the engine. Against the solemn warnings of Rolls-Royce, he had had fitted, by his pet expert at the Headquarters' motor pool, an Arnott supercharger controlled by a magnetic clutch. Rolls-Royce had said the crankshaft bearings wouldn't take the extra load and, when he confessed to them what he had done, they regretfully but firmly withdrew their guarantees and washed their hands of their bastardized child. This was the first time he had notched 125 and the rev. counter had hovered dangerously over the red area at 4500. But the temperature and oil were OK and there were no expensive noises. And, by God, it had been fun!

    James Bond idled through the pretty approaches to Royale, through the young beeches and the heavy-scented pines, looking forward to the evening and remembering his other annual pilgrimages to this place and, particularly, the great battle across the baize he had had with Le Chiffre so many years ago. He had come a long way since then, dodged many bullets and much death and loved many girls, but there had been a drama and a poignancy about that particular adventure that every year drew him back to Royale and its casino and to the small granite cross in the little churchyard that simply said 'Vesper Lynd. RIP.'

    And now what was the place holding for him on this beautiful September evening? A big win? A painful loss? A beautiful girl - that beautiful girl?
    small-Rolls-Royce-Cloud.png

  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 366
    Does anyone know how much unused footage there is for QOS?
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited August 29 Posts: 3,461
    To me it really comes down to the scene in QoS where Mathis urges Bond to forgive Vesper: She gave everything for you. Forgive her. Forgive yourself.

    James in QoS was conflicted. Yes, there’s a part of him that definitely blames himself for not being able to save her, like @RichardTheBruce says, but for Bond forgiving Vesper meant truly accepting why she betrayed him, and discovering her feelings were used too against her helped him. As I see things in the end it all comes down to the trust element. Thanks to the CinemaCon descriptions we know Bond in NTTD tries to “move on”. He wants to move on with this Vesper obsession that’s still there hidden under the armor. Move on from what? He’s not in love anymore with Vesper. In order to really fall in love and start a relationship with someone else, IMO Bond needs to move on from his Vesper thing, that is fundamentally the fear of being betrayed again. He came up with it even in SP when Lucia said “I can’t trust nobody” and he replies sarcastically “I know the feeling well”. Going back to Mathis last words, Bond needs to make peace with the fact that he was wrong blaming her, like M and Mathis tried to show him in Venice and Talamone. That’s why he asks for forgiveness at Vesper’s grave. He was wrong blaming her, because in the end she saved his life and she died for him.
    The moment he makes peace with the fact that he was wrong, he was unfair towards her, that her betrayal was forced by things bigger than her, that she did all her best to protect him and help him he’d be able to trust a woman again.
    He forgave her at the end of QoS, but he never forgave himself.
    And that’s the tragedy: once he achieves that, he’s simultaneously betrayed by Swann again. Or at least, that’s what he believes.

    QoS was never about “I could’ve saved her” but it was about “You shouldn’t blame her”.

    Anyway thanks @Pierce2Daniel for bringing up this topic that it’s gonna be capital in NTTD.



    EDIT:

    Ludovico wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think making a sequel of sorts to CR was actually the logical thing to do, given that they had introduced a shadowy organisation in CR. Whether the sequel we got was the sequel we needed is another debate entirely. But I do like QOS, in spite of its flaws.

    I think it should have been a sequel in the same sense LALD novel was. It still follows up on Bond hungry for a little payback against the organization. It’s just not set literally minutes after the preceding novel.

    Also, I absolutely LOATHE the name “Quantum”. Imagine if they didn’t bother naming it, that would have allowed them to simply name them SPECTRE later on without any contrivances. They’re basically the same type of organization already anyway.

    Well, that may be for the controversial thread, but I don't mind they used Quantum as a name by default and I don't mind that it's revealed to be SPECTRE in the end, when they finally got the rights. But yes, a sequel a la LALD, set later in time, would have been what I'd preferred.

    Actually Quantum is just part of the bigger SPECTRE organization, not actually SPECTRE.

    Yes but that was retconned and never made clear in the movies.

    On the contrary.

    In SP Q makes it perfectly clear: the Quantum organization is part of the bigger SPECTRE organization, and I quote: "... and it seems they were all part of one organization: LeChiffre, Quantum, Sciarra, your friend Mr. Silva".

    spectre2015-2212.jpg
  • Posts: 13,247
    Well one passing line is hardly very clear At best it is handwaved. I buy it in any case, but it is not made very clear.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 3,461
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well one passing line is hardly very clear At best it is handwaved. I buy it in any case, but it is not made very clear.

    Sure there wasn’t any deep explanation but at least they made it clear that Quantum isn’t SPECTRE and that the latter is its own thing that links them all.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 9,135
    I'm imagining new dialogue.
    • Madeleine: Its name is Quantum. I mean, Spectre.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited August 30 Posts: 4,625
    Honestly, while the way Oberhauser/Blofeld was handled will always be bad in my opinion, I still find the way they tried to tie everything together even more frustrating, especially Silva.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited August 30 Posts: 3,461
    As Silva stated: All to the highest bidder.
    I just loved the idea of Silva being hired by Blofeld to both punish Bond and weakening the MI6, paving the way to the 9 Eyes program, using his resentment towards M.
    Simply genius and a diabolical move from Blofeld’s part.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,726
    According to Purvis & Wade from a radio interview in 2015, Quantum is basically the South American branch of SPECTRE, with Greene being the director of it. When Bond took Greene down, he essentially brought down Quantum. White was Blofeld's right hand man who was assigned to keep an eye on the different divisions. So first we see him keeping an eye on Le Chiffre until he's ordered to do a hit on him. Same thing with Greene, in fact it's he who caught up with Greene in the desert and shot him to death, before MI6 found his body.

    Understandably, this kind of clarification would have been unnecessary in the film. So Q's brief assessment of Quantum's relationship with SPECTRE is pretty concise. Perhaps SPECTRE has other branches with unique names that Bond never had to encounter.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 4,469
    What hurt SP is that Eon did contortions not to mention QoS. And while they didn't need to go into a lengthy explanation, avoiding QoS made it difficult to link Quantum and Spectre dramatically or believably.

    It appears NTTD is going to lean into SP (despite its shortcomings) rather than avoid it, so perhaps they've learned their lesson.
  • Posts: 13,247
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Honestly, while the way Oberhauser/Blofeld was handled will always be bad in my opinion, I still find the way they tried to tie everything together even more frustrating, especially Silva.

    That's for the controversial opinion thread, but I actually think it makes perfect sense that Silva works for Spectre, a la Dr No. I'd even say that it makes more sense that he does.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,726
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited August 31 Posts: 3,461
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.

    Well he’s a freelance terrorist. Blofeld gives him the opportunity to fulfill his vengeance in order to achieve both SPECTRE and personal goals since ESB wanted to toy with Bond’s personal life. As Q says, Mr. Silva was part of the organization but this is pretty vague and he could’ve been just connected to SPECTRE thanks to the toxicology report because he was in contact with SPECTRE people. Putting together what SF established and the information given by Q I don’t see him as a SPECTRE agent but as a freelance terrorist working with them for that particular operation. Just like LeChiffre wasn’t a SPECTRE agent but someone working with them.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,726
    matt_u wrote: »
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.

    Blofeld gives him the opportunity to fulfill his vengeance in order to achieve both SPECTRE and personal goals since ESB wanted to toy with Bond’s personal life.

    Except Bond was presumed dead at the time, so Blofeld wasn’t even factoring Bond when Silva started attacking MI6.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 3,461
    matt_u wrote: »
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.

    Blofeld gives him the opportunity to fulfill his vengeance in order to achieve both SPECTRE and personal goals since ESB wanted to toy with Bond’s personal life.

    Except Bond was presumed dead at the time, so Blofeld wasn’t even factoring Bond when Silva started attacking MI6.

    That’s true and Blofeld himself stated that the “I destroy your world” part always came later for him.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 4,469
    matt_u wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.

    Blofeld gives him the opportunity to fulfill his vengeance in order to achieve both SPECTRE and personal goals since ESB wanted to toy with Bond’s personal life.

    Except Bond was presumed dead at the time, so Blofeld wasn’t even factoring Bond when Silva started attacking MI6.

    That’s true and Blofeld himself stated that the “I destroy your world” part always came later for him.

    We're putting more thought into SP than John Logan did.
  • Posts: 13,247
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.

    Well that could be this. They never dwell on it either way. For me it makes more sense because of Silva's henchmen. Unless they were fanaticised cultists, why would they have followed their leader in a suicidal mission in enemy territory? If they are on Spectre's payroll, directly or indirectly, they have a better motivation: long term gain, maybe an escape route once Silva kills M, etc.
  • Posts: 782
    echo wrote: »
    What hurt SP is that Eon did contortions not to mention QoS. And while they didn't need to go into a lengthy explanation, avoiding QoS made it difficult to link Quantum and Spectre dramatically or believably.

    It appears NTTD is going to lean into SP (despite its shortcomings) rather than avoid it, so perhaps they've learned their lesson.

    They didn’t even bother to have Blofeld put Greenes photo on the wall of MI6 along with Lechiffre,and Silva.Even the writers have forgotten about QOS!

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Enemy of the state
    Posts: 41,590
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    What hurt SP is that Eon did contortions not to mention QoS. And while they didn't need to go into a lengthy explanation, avoiding QoS made it difficult to link Quantum and Spectre dramatically or believably.

    It appears NTTD is going to lean into SP (despite its shortcomings) rather than avoid it, so perhaps they've learned their lesson.

    They didn’t even bother to have Blofeld put Greenes photo on the wall of MI6 along with Lechiffre,and Silva.Even the writers have forgotten about QOS!

    Well, it was already overkill. I could understand putting up Vesper s photo to torment Bond. All those others were just silly.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 1 Posts: 4,469
    It feels like Logan just gave up at that point.

    Far better would have been to have photos of Severine, Solange, Fields, and M, culminating in Vesper. And perhaps a Blofeld voiceover: "Lost another one!"
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 3,461
    Those photos on the walls are the dumbest thing in all the Craig era.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 4,469
    Seriously. It's one thing to remind me of Austin Powers, but another to remind me of...Kinko's?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    edited September 1 Posts: 4,726
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    What hurt SP is that Eon did contortions not to mention QoS. And while they didn't need to go into a lengthy explanation, avoiding QoS made it difficult to link Quantum and Spectre dramatically or believably.

    It appears NTTD is going to lean into SP (despite its shortcomings) rather than avoid it, so perhaps they've learned their lesson.

    They didn’t even bother to have Blofeld put Greenes photo on the wall of MI6 along with Lechiffre,and Silva.Even the writers have forgotten about QOS!

    Even if QOS was massively popular, it wouldn’t make sense to put Greene because to Bond he was just a middle man that Bond needed info from, it never got as intimate as the conflicts with Le Chiffre and Silva. If anyone from QOS should have been in that photo set, it should have been Mathis.
    matt_u wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    It would make more sense for me if Silva was basically someone sponsored by SPECTRE, rather than actually employed by them. Blofeld being responsible for giving Silva the necessary resources and men to help him achieve his goal in killing M and humiliating MI6.

    Blofeld gives him the opportunity to fulfill his vengeance in order to achieve both SPECTRE and personal goals since ESB wanted to toy with Bond’s personal life.

    Except Bond was presumed dead at the time, so Blofeld wasn’t even factoring Bond when Silva started attacking MI6.

    That’s true and Blofeld himself stated that the “I destroy your world” part always came later for him.

    Right. When Blofeld was at the crater base he only just started believe that fate was what ultimately brought them together, as opposed to him setting out to hurt Bond all those years. He’s just short of saying that them ending up fighting each other was a coincidence.
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