Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (30th June 2023)

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,729
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Speaking of theism what happened to the religious thread?

    Yes, my Religion Thread was closed down in June 2018. Ultimately, it was for the best. I realized it was a mistake to ever have created such a thread here. The same goes for the political threads I created. Still, you live and learn as you get older.

    I always wanted to do a thread on Cicada 3301 I can only imagine the sarcastic and wild theories some of the people on here would create. but still...

    You're very welcome to post that in this thread of mine:

    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/18921/the-general-oddities-thread/p1?new=1

    It was created for such topics. We've discussed David Icke so feel free to update the thread with your theories on Cicada 3301. I'll happily add it to the thread's title to show the change in subject.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Risico007 wrote: »
    My honest hope is if its the last one they are searching for the Garden of Eden it makes sense thematically as the Garden of Eden is essentially heaven

    Plus maybe I am showing my bias as a christian but for me the films work better when they are hunting for Judeo-Christian artifacts.

    I agree that the movies have more of a punch when Indy is searching for a Judeo-Christian MacGuffin. They tend to be richer in theme and emotion. Raiders, for example, is not "about" an archaeologist searching for lost treasure. Raiders is about an atheist becoming a believer; he thinks the "power of God" is all hokum and talks about it dismissively at the beginning, but by the end of the movie, he believes fully, with his eyes closed, in that very power.

    Incidentally, I'm an agnostic, so I'm not trying to push religion on anyone. This is all just a long way of saying that the films (at least for me) are much richer when they have those religious aspects.

    Very true, but where would Indy be without archeology?
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    My honest hope is if its the last one they are searching for the Garden of Eden it makes sense thematically as the Garden of Eden is essentially heaven

    Plus maybe I am showing my bias as a christian but for me the films work better when they are hunting for Judeo-Christian artifacts.

    I agree that the movies have more of a punch when Indy is searching for a Judeo-Christian MacGuffin. They tend to be richer in theme and emotion. Raiders, for example, is not "about" an archaeologist searching for lost treasure. Raiders is about an atheist becoming a believer ; he thinks the "power of God" is all hokum and talks about it dismissively at the beginning, but by the end of the movie, he believes fully, with his eyes closed, in that very power.

    Incidentally, I'm an agnostic, so I'm not trying to push religion on anyone. This is all just a long way of saying that the films (at least for me) are much richer when they have those religious aspects.

    I'm an atheist--an anti-theist even--and I agree as well. ;-)

    That said, my favourite film in the series is TOD, but simply because I love the adventure of it all. When it comes to MacGuffins, there's no substitute for the Arc in Raiders or the Cup in Crusade.

    As a fellow aethist i completely enjoy the original trilogy always especially last crusade which is my favorite. Planning on watch this sunday.
    Speaking of theism what happened to the religious thread?

    It went to hell.

    :))
    Where it met Kali presumably?

    As an Hindu i am offended :P (kidding).
    Kali isn't exactly hell or symbolism of hell.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 7,971
    Speaking of theism what happened to the religious thread?

    It went to hell.

    >:)
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,916
    Speaking of theism what happened to the religious thread?

    It went to hell.
    Or Heaven.

    419db99ee06be83312d69cda0a186fe7605a446a.png

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,729
    Speaking of theism what happened to the religious thread?

    It went to hell.
    Or Heaven.

    419db99ee06be83312d69cda0a186fe7605a446a.png

    All good guys go to heaven.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    Let's get back on topic, folks. 😉
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited January 2021 Posts: 7,891
    It appears that the movie will be set in the 60’s, that’s approximately 10 to 15 years less than the actual chronology time that has passed from the release of Raiders to now; this points to the likelihood that they will do some subtle de-aging on Ford . He still looks good and is in fantastic physical shape so I think the results would be remarkable

    I’m actually very excited about
    Mangold’s involvement; following Crystal Skull, the franchise need a fresh perspective. I loved Ford vs Ferrari; he did a great job of recreating the 60s era
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Maybe they found something strange on the Moon.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    MaxCasino wrote: »

    Doesn t this sound too similar to Last Crusade?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,053
    Yep, but it’s The Daily Express, what can we expect. I think Marion coming back is as given as Luke was for TLJ.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    Williams is still listed as composer. That's quite cool, actually.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Williams is still listed as composer. That's quite cool, actually.

    That would be lovely, although I shan't pin my hopes on it (he turned 89 today!). Even if he can contribute a theme or two I'd be happy.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 66
    fernadez wrote: »
    Always thought Bradley Cooper was a better choice than Chris Pratt.

    Agreed
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Williams is still listed as composer. That's quite cool, actually.

    That would be lovely, although I shan't pin my hopes on it (he turned 89 today!). Even if he can contribute a theme or two I'd be happy.

    Well, I'm sure we've got that covered. They're sitting on four fabulous scores. Even if they simply "remix" those, they'll have great stuff. ;-)

    All joking aside, Williams hasn't been working alone for some time. I think there's a team behind him already.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Williams is still listed as composer. That's quite cool, actually.

    That would be lovely, although I shan't pin my hopes on it (he turned 89 today!). Even if he can contribute a theme or two I'd be happy.

    Well, I'm sure we've got that covered. They're sitting on four fabulous scores. Even if they simply "remix" those, they'll have great stuff. ;-)

    Heh! I guess it's possible, but I think every one of those movies has given us some brilliant stuff. It's like when folks say Crystal Skull shouldn't have happened I think 'no way! Then we wouldn't have that score'. Same with the Star Wars sequels: if they existed just only to give us Rey's Theme then that's enough! :)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    All joking aside, Williams hasn't been working alone for some time. I think there's a team behind him already.

    I feel like not many big composers do, is that right? I'm sure it varies wildly, but I think often a big movie's score is a lot more collaborative than we perhaps think. I guess it's like a big famous architect firm: there's no way Norman Foster designed everything in those huge buildings! :)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Williams is still listed as composer. That's quite cool, actually.

    That would be lovely, although I shan't pin my hopes on it (he turned 89 today!). Even if he can contribute a theme or two I'd be happy.

    Well, I'm sure we've got that covered. They're sitting on four fabulous scores. Even if they simply "remix" those, they'll have great stuff. ;-)

    Heh! I guess it's possible, but I think every one of those movies has given us some brilliant stuff. It's like when folks say Crystal Skull shouldn't have happened I think 'no way! Then we wouldn't have that score'. Same with the Star Wars sequels: if they existed just only to give us Rey's Theme then that's enough! :)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    All joking aside, Williams hasn't been working alone for some time. I think there's a team behind him already.

    I feel like not many big composers do, is that right? I'm sure it varies wildly, but I think often a big movie's score is a lot more collaborative than we perhaps think. I guess it's like a big famous architect firm: there's no way Norman Foster designed everything in those huge buildings! :)

    Completely agree.

    Either way, Williams has nothing to prove anymore. The man is a genius. Six decades of brilliant work!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    But if he does happen to have a nice theme or two then I'm happy to listen to them! Even if he wants to get John Powell to do the rest, that's fine! :)

    With the collaboration thing I kind of can't help but think that we might not be getting premium Zimmer for No Time To Die: I don't know how long he had to make that score but it seems like it wasn't long, and we already know another composer did a fair chunk of it with him probably because his schedule is so packed. If he didn't get to give it his all I hope they get him for the next Bond so he can give that some proper love. I'm not a massive fan of his or anything but you can certainly tell he's good at what he does.
  • Posts: 6,682
    The thing is when a film composer has a deadline to meet, he often has to rely on orchestrators, because there's just not enough time for him to go through each composition as originally written, and adapt it for an orchestra. He might only do that for a few cues, and have orchestrators help out with the other cues, with the composer later reviewing their work if necessary, to make sure it reflects his artistic style. You also need copyists to create sheet music for each orchestra player and verify there are no mistakes. It's a lot of work in a very short time.

    Supposedly, there are also some film composers who aren't very good from a technical standpoint, and thus need arrangers/orchestrators to write down and flesh out their ideas. For them, it's not just about meeting a deadline!

    I remember John Barry used to orchestrate his early scores all by himself, but speaking of Bond, by the time of AVTAK, NIc Raine was working as an orchestrator for him. I also remember reading an interview with a fellow whose name escapes me, but he was an orchestrator in Dances with Wolves, and he submitted an arrangement for Barry to review. Barry decided much of the orchestration was unnecessary and had it removed.

    Of course, with synth scores, most of this becomes irrelevant.
  • Posts: 6,682
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    As an aside, there is a fan-made adventure video game, supposedly still in development, called Indiana Jones and the Fountain of Youth. A demo was even released several years ago, though the developers have since removed all references to Indiana Jones for fear of legal repercussions. The game is now simply called The Fountain of Youth.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    mattjoes wrote: »
    The thing is when a film composer has a deadline to meet, he often has to rely on orchestrators, because there's just not enough time for him to go through each composition as originally written, and adapt it for an orchestra. He might only do that for a few cues, and have orchestrators help out with the other cues, with the composer later reviewing their work if necessary, to make sure it reflects his artistic style. You also need copyists to create sheet music for each orchestra player and verify there are no mistakes. It's a lot of work in a very short time.

    Supposedly, there are also some film composers who aren't very good from a technical standpoint, and thus need arrangers/orchestrators to write down and flesh out their ideas. For them, it's not just about meeting a deadline!

    I remember John Barry used to orchestrate his early scores all by himself, but speaking of Bond, by the time of AVTAK, NIc Raine was working as an orchestrator for him. I also remember reading an interview with a fellow whose name escapes me, but he was an orchestrator in Dances with Wolves, and he submitted an arrangement for Barry to review. Barry decided much of the orchestration was unnecessary and had it removed.

    Of course, with synth scores, most of this becomes irrelevant.

    Interesting stuff!
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 440
    mattjoes wrote: »
    The thing is when a film composer has a deadline to meet, he often has to rely on orchestrators, because there's just not enough time for him to go through each composition as originally written, and adapt it for an orchestra. He might only do that for a few cues, and have orchestrators help out with the other cues, with the composer later reviewing their work if necessary, to make sure it reflects his artistic style. You also need copyists to create sheet music for each orchestra player and verify there are no mistakes. It's a lot of work in a very short time.

    Supposedly, there are also some film composers who aren't very good from a technical standpoint, and thus need arrangers/orchestrators to write down and flesh out their ideas. For them, it's not just about meeting a deadline!

    I remember John Barry used to orchestrate his early scores all by himself, but speaking of Bond, by the time of AVTAK, NIc Raine was working as an orchestrator for him. I also remember reading an interview with a fellow whose name escapes me, but he was an orchestrator in Dances with Wolves, and he submitted an arrangement for Barry to review. Barry decided much of the orchestration was unnecessary and had it removed.

    Of course, with synth scores, most of this becomes irrelevant.

    The difference with Zimmer is that those orchestrators often end up writing most of the score.

    It's a fairly open secret in the film scoring world that Zimmer tends to only write about 20 or so minutes of work and then hands it off to the 'collaborator' to expand into an actual 70-90 minute score.

    An unspoken part of working at Remote Control Productions is that if you help fill out Zimmer's work, he'll get you gigs in return. Junkie XL, Henry Jackman, and Lorne Balfe all got their first solo Hollywood gigs from this.

    That's not to say that this method can't produce good work, or that Zimmer has no talent. But he's become so much of a brand now, that producers are really paying much more for the name than the actual content.

  • Posts: 1,545
    OK so they finish this one -- and here's hoping it won't be just awwwwwful as was the 4th one (which also can be described as "offal") -- then what ? I think going with someone presently unknown -- not Chris Pratt, not Bradley Cooper -- would work best. Go back to Indy's younger days. There's plenty of timeframes between the existing stories in which to place other Indy stories, with and without Marion. Certainly without Mutt.
  • I think it would be appropriate and very cool if John Williams's final film score was the final Harrison Ford Indy film. I hope he can at least contribute, if not write the whole thing (although the man is brilliant, so there's no reason to doubt that he *could* write the whole thing himself, even at 89 or 90).
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 440
    I think it would be appropriate and very cool if John Williams's final film score was the final Harrison Ford Indy film. I hope he can at least contribute, if not write the whole thing (although the man is brilliant, so there's no reason to doubt that he *could* write the whole thing himself, even at 89 or 90).

    I mean, I would doubt it. Especially given that for the last decade he's basically only been working on Spielberg's projects and now he's been dropping out of those, left and right.

    I'm also not sure I would want to see him write the full score, because his work on the Star Wars sequels, The Post, and The BFG all kind of sounded the same.

    I love his music and he's had a great career, but no one puts out their best work in the ninth decade of their life.



  • I think it would be appropriate and very cool if John Williams's final film score was the final Harrison Ford Indy film. I hope he can at least contribute, if not write the whole thing (although the man is brilliant, so there's no reason to doubt that he *could* write the whole thing himself, even at 89 or 90).

    I mean, I would doubt it. Especially given that for the last decade he's basically only been working on Spielberg's projects and now he's been dropping out of those, left and right.

    I'm also not sure I would want to see him write the full score, because his work on the Star Wars sequels, The Post, and The BFG all kind of sounded the same.

    I love his music and he's had a great career, but no one puts out their best work in the ninth decade of their life.



    Definitely some fair points. I wouldn't be surprised if Michael Giacchino steps in; he seems to be the go-to replacement for Williams these days. Personally, I would not be upset by this at all.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2021 Posts: 14,861
    There are others who get closer to Williams' style I think; I can see he is a sort of 'old school' composer but his stuff rarely does much for me.

    I guess it depends whether they'd want a score which is aping Williams as much as possible, like Solo had, or to take it somewhere else slightly. I think Göransson has done some amazing scores which perhaps build on the work of others rather than just imitating them, he might be good.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    mattjoes wrote: »
    The thing is when a film composer has a deadline to meet, he often has to rely on orchestrators, because there's just not enough time for him to go through each composition as originally written, and adapt it for an orchestra. He might only do that for a few cues, and have orchestrators help out with the other cues, with the composer later reviewing their work if necessary, to make sure it reflects his artistic style. You also need copyists to create sheet music for each orchestra player and verify there are no mistakes. It's a lot of work in a very short time.

    Supposedly, there are also some film composers who aren't very good from a technical standpoint, and thus need arrangers/orchestrators to write down and flesh out their ideas. For them, it's not just about meeting a deadline!

    I remember John Barry used to orchestrate his early scores all by himself, but speaking of Bond, by the time of AVTAK, NIc Raine was working as an orchestrator for him. I also remember reading an interview with a fellow whose name escapes me, but he was an orchestrator in Dances with Wolves, and he submitted an arrangement for Barry to review. Barry decided much of the orchestration was unnecessary and had it removed.

    Of course, with synth scores, most of this becomes irrelevant.

    The difference with Zimmer is that those orchestrators often end up writing most of the score.

    It's a fairly open secret in the film scoring world that Zimmer tends to only write about 20 or so minutes of work and then hands it off to the 'collaborator' to expand into an actual 70-90 minute score.

    An unspoken part of working at Remote Control Productions is that if you help fill out Zimmer's work, he'll get you gigs in return. Junkie XL, Henry Jackman, and Lorne Balfe all got their first solo Hollywood gigs from this.

    That's not to say that this method can't produce good work, or that Zimmer has no talent. But he's become so much of a brand now, that producers are really paying much more for the name than the actual content.

    I used to really dislike Zimmer for that reason alone. His work felt like factory output, not art. But I have since come to appreciate the music itself, regardless of how it was conceived. The brand 'Zimmer' has delivered some truly amazing music, and that's ultimately what counts.

    I know that Williams tends to sometimes re-use his own material. Then again, the man's been in business for many decades, and he's got that particular style. It's no surprise that his music feels repeated after a while. I'm always telling myself that it's fine, that he's entitled to that, that more of a really good thing continues to be a good thing. And those who watch Hook and Harry Potter only once, are less likely to notice the similarities anyway.

    Why I have confidence in a Williams' score for Indy 5, even if it's the "brand" Williams rather than the man himself doing most of the work, is because the Indy scores have amassed several amazing themes, and an overall great "sound", that can be repurposed, remixed, expanded on and more. I'm not saying the next film doesn't deserve better than just a recycled score, but at least there's a fruitful template for someone else to work with, if the Williams sound is indeed what they want, and if John Williams himself can't do it anymore, which I wouldn't hold against him at this point. The man has given us some of the most epic film scores in history and I will always admire and respect him.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,891
    I’m a huge fan of Giacchino‘s work , both original and adapted. I’m particularly fond of his scores for “ Ratatouille” and “ Super 8” .
    The being an unapologetic nod to the early films of Stephen Spielberg. Giacchino Beautifully captures the spirit of Williams’ scores without simply aping his style.

    I would be more than happy if Giacchino scored, or better yet collaborated With Williams, the upcoming adventure of Dr. Jones.
  • edited March 2021 Posts: 121
    Indy 5 cinematographer Phedon Papamichael has just landed in Greece. Location scouting? Or just visiting home?
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