The curse of the second movie?

edited March 2013 in Bond Movies Posts: 14,800
Is it me or more often than none (FRWL being the exception confirming the rule), the second Bond movie of an actor is more heavily criticized than the others and is seen as a drop of quality at least when it is released? Independently of what you think of the quality of the movie itself (I like QOS, for instance). After TMWTGG the producers took three years to make TSWLM, LTK was a failure even though it now has its supporters among the fans, TND is often seen as a lesser entry than GE, even by Brosnan who said it was not as good, and QOS is considered lesser than CR, even disappointing by many. Craig himself, although he does defend the movie, admits that QOS was flawed.

So what are the reasons for this ''curse'' of the second movie?
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Comments

  • Posts: 498
    I liked QoS , Don't think its flawed.

    Neither do I think CR is flawed.

    Its all a matter of perspective.
  • And the third movie always seems to be regarded as the best ;) ;)
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    I think around this time last year we were discussing the third film curse, interesting. I think all that is rubbish.
  • Third film curse? What is cursed about any of the third films? Maybe a little trouble, but nothing to the extent of cursed.
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    Curse of The 2nd Movie...Nope

    Tommorow Never Dies, From Russia With Love and Licence to Kill are all good films

    The Man with The Golden Gun is okay....but very tacky
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    Third film curse? What is cursed about any of the third films? Maybe a little trouble, but nothing to the extent of cursed.

    I don't agree either, but there was a huge discussion a few months ago. I'll see if I can find it.
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    3rd Film Curse HAHAHHAHAHA no way

    Connery- Goldfinger
    Moore- The Spy Who Loved Me
    Brosnan- The World is Not Enough
    Craig- Skyfall

    All of these movies (even with their flaws) are rather brillaint especially Connery and Moore's Films
  • Posts: 14,800
    002 wrote:
    Curse of The 2nd Movie...Nope

    Tommorow Never Dies, From Russia With Love and Licence to Kill are all good films

    The Man with The Golden Gun is okay....but very tacky

    I already said FRWL is the exception to the rule. And it has nothing to do with the quality of the movies, but the perception of the public, critics AND people involved making them. TMWTGG is often considered Moore's worst, or at least one of his lesser ones and they took three years to make TSWLM. LTK was the least profitable Bond movie, it was not appreciated on its release and there was a six years gap between it and GE. Dalton seemed unhappy about it too, at least to a degree. Brosnan thought TND was not as good as GE. And QOS although financially successful (I personally enjoy it) was often seen as lesser than CR and suffered from a scriptwriters strike.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 121
    Sandy wrote:
    Third film curse? What is cursed about any of the third films? Maybe a little trouble, but nothing to the extent of cursed.

    I don't agree either, but there was a huge discussion a few months ago. I'll see if I can find it.

    I am astonished that anyone can think Goldfinger, TSWLM, TWINE or Skyfall suffer from some form of curse.

    :-))
  • Posts: 6,432
    I think its fair to say critically the second movies except FRWL (as mentioned) have had the odd bashing. That's irrespective of how the fans view the movies.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    FRWL is my favourite Bond film, no bashing allowed :D
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    i think the only ever mention of a supposed 3rd film curse, was in the case of Brosnan's TWINE... but that is hardly a curse... i think it was more people drawing parallels, going Connery/GF was outstanding, Moore/TSWLM was outstanding.. but Brosnan/TWINE? meh...... if anything, TWINE seems to be the exception to the rule.... i enjoy TWINE, but i dont find it as entertaining as GE or TND... but it was far from horrid - that would be the next film to come along lol.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I'd agree that TMWTGG is worse than LALD, LTK worse than TLD, TND worse than GE and QoS worse than CR. But I wouldn't call it a curse or anything. Each of those movies had a unique set of circumstances that happened during the time of production. Also it can't really be a curse because of FRWL's success.
  • Posts: 7,653
    It is difficult following a succesmovie with a 2nd attempt the director is always stuck with the choice will I do more of the same with more spectacle or do I chose something else. And more often than not the financial backers want more of the succes story and less of an experiment.
    Connery had the easiest job since there was no formula and a mountain of Fleming to work with. Lazenby's 2nd would have been an interesting one in my humble opinion and the one thing missing in this franchise that would have been very interesting.
    Moore's second one suffered from finding the right tone for Roger Moore's version of 007, he did nail it with his third.
    Daltons second movie also suffered from finding the right tone for his version of 007, it was way too generic and Miami Vice and not enough 007. And they did not get to make the movie they really wanted to make due to studio troubles. Perhaps a 3rd movie of Dalton would be his swansong.
    Brosnans 2nd attempt was not too shabby, imho his second movie was in quality not any less than his 1st movie. I find that Brosnans movies were quality wise quite similar, only his performance did get better through the movies.
    Craigs 2nd one did suffer due to a script that makes no sense at times, a director that is not versed in action movies and a 2nd director and editor that did a Jason Bourne pastiche on this movie. It could have been a great attempt but in the end the director failed to make it a coherent piece, now we have great moments in a mudpool.

    There is in my opinion no 2nd movie curse only the attempts of giving the various actors a consequent style of their own some are better than others. Only Craig was unlucky due to circumstances.
  • Posts: 498
    Sandy wrote:
    I think around this time last year we were discussing the third film curse, interesting. I think all that is rubbish.

    ^Couldn't have said it better.
  • Posts: 498
    002 wrote:
    Curse of The 2nd Movie...Nope

    Tommorow Never Dies, From Russia With Love and Licence to Kill are all good films

    The Man with The Golden Gun is okay....but very tacky

    Haha ,
    Strategically missed a movie , I see ! :))

  • Posts: 498
    That's irrespective of how the fans view the movies.

    Very much agree.
  • For me, there's been an "even-numbered films" curse (similar to the Star Trek "odd-numbered curse"), starting in the mid-80s. Out of the past ten films, my least favorites are all the even-numbered ones: AVTAK, LTK, TND, DAD, and QOS. I'm still waiting for two great Bond movies in a row in my lifetime. They always seem to follow each success with a botched effort.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    i honestly think the only discernible trend in Bond films, is when the series reaches it's apex or high water mark - then the next film is always scaled back down to basics..

    You Only Live Twice begot On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    Moonraker
    begot For Your Eyes Only

    Die Another Day
    begot Casino Royale

    ... and we will undoubtedly reach this point again
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,350
    And the other way. GoldenEye goes for more fun after Licence To Kill.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2013 Posts: 28,694
    1st film curse is definitely not true either:

    Dr. No, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Live and Let Die, The Living Daylights, Goldeneye and Casino Royale are usually all seen favorably for one reason or another.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    i also wouldn't call it a curse... but none of the actors have left the role gracefully either...

    Connery - Diamonds Are Forever
    Moore - A View To A Kill
    Dalton - Licence To Kill (though i still think it's good film)
    Brosnan - Die Another Day
  • Posts: 5,634
    I don't believe there's any film curse evident here. From Russia with Love needs no elaboration, Golden Gun is a great adventure, License to Kill wasn't too bad, and Dalton puts in another powerhouse performance, but the competition at time of release meant it was really up against it, Tomorrow Never Dies I don't think much of, but many seem to like it, and the same goes with Quantum of Solace. Could well be all about individual preferences above all else
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 1,817
    HASEROT wrote:
    i also wouldn't call it a curse... but none of the actors have left the role gracefully either...

    Connery - Diamonds Are Forever
    Moore - A View To A Kill
    Dalton - Licence To Kill (though i still think it's good film)
    Brosnan - Die Another Day

    We could safely say that for actors with 3 or more movies the last one is the worst one. And I'm sorry for Craig because of this "law".
  • 0013 wrote:
    We could safely say that for actors with 3 or more movies the last one is the worst one. And I'm sorry for Craig because of this "law".

    You could say that...but not "safely," because others would disagree. I, for one, place YOLT far below DAF. And I sometimes fluctuate about whether AVTAK or MR is Moore's worst (AVTAK is definitely the crummier movie, but Walken's presence elevates it somewhat).

    No argument about DAD, though.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    0013 wrote:
    We could safely say that for actors with 3 or more movies the last one is the worst one. And I'm sorry for Craig because of this "law".

    You don't actually believe in this mumbo-jumbo do you? It is just a coincidence, where most of the actor's final films weren't that great critically. There is not a curse in any sense, especially when considering that whether or not the Bond films are hailed critically they are a financial success even at their worst.
  • Posts: 14,800
    I don't believe there's any film curse evident here. From Russia with Love needs no elaboration, Golden Gun is a great adventure, License to Kill wasn't too bad, and Dalton puts in another powerhouse performance, but the competition at time of release meant it was really up against it, Tomorrow Never Dies I don't think much of, but many seem to like it, and the same goes with Quantum of Solace. Could well be all about individual preferences above all else

    I already said FRWL was the exception, and anyway regardless of the quality one personally gives to the movies, TMWTGG was rushed and the promotional campaign was poor and is in general seen as one of the weaker Moore entries, and it preceded a much more popular Bond film that defined his tenure. LTK is now loved by many fans, but it was seen as a failure when it was released, the least successful Bond, TND was seen as lesser than GE, so was QOS.

    Of course, when I say ''curse'', I do not mean literally, but there is an pattern here and I am trying to see if it can be explained.
  • Posts: 14,800
    0013 wrote:
    We could safely say that for actors with 3 or more movies the last one is the worst one. And I'm sorry for Craig because of this "law".

    You don't actually believe in this mumbo-jumbo do you? It is just a coincidence, where most of the actor's final films weren't that great critically. There is not a curse in any sense, especially when considering that whether or not the Bond films are hailed critically they are a financial success even at their worst.

    I don't think it is so much a coincidence as something to be expected after a number of times: lack of creativity, fear of breaking a winning formula, etc.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 1,637
    Mortal Kombat 2.......nuff said :/
    NOES 2 (I kinda like it though)
    F13 , part 2 (underrated imo)
    Jaws 2 (OK on it's own but not up to par with original)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Tracy wrote:
    Mortal Kombat 2.......nuff said :/
    NOES 2 (I kinda like it though)
    F13 , part 2 (underrated imo)
    Jaws 2 (OK on it's own but not up to par with original)

    And for each of those we get another like:

    Spider-man 2
    The Dark Knight
    Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
    Toy Story 2
    Scream 2
    The Empire Strikes Back
    The Bourne Supremacy
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