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The Battle for Bond

RC7RC7
edited July 2012 in Literary 007 Posts: 10,512
Apologies in advance if this thread exists. I assumed it would but can't see it.

Anyhow, thoughts? I found it utterly fascinating, an absolute 'must' for any Bond fan. It's taken me a while to get around to reading it but it was absolutely worth it. There is such a wealth of information ripe for discussion that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Therefore, for those that have read it, I open the floor...

Comments

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Is this the book that is supposed to be every Bond fan's bible or something??
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    It's a book concerning the legal wrangle surrounding Thunderball, it's iteration as a screenplay for 'The 1st Bond film', the Fleming novel and the subsequent films. It concerns Fleming, McClory, Jack Whittingham and some of the major players early on. If you like Bond, you need to own it basically.
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    You´re right, there was a thread somewhere about this quite some time ago, but don´t ask me how to find it ;-) .

    I found the first half of the book immensely informative but a bit tedious to read. The part about the development and production of NSNA was much more entertaining. Nevertheless, a wellspring of information and a brilliant book.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    Is this the book that is supposed to be every Bond fan's bible or something??

    That's James Bond: The Legacy (although it only goes up to DAD).
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    edited July 2012 Posts: 2,044
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    Is this the book that is supposed to be every Bond fan's bible or something??

    That's James Bond: The Legacy (although it only goes up to DAD).

    Totally! That book is a great addition to the ' inside ' documentaries.
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    Posts: 370
    Found a copy of this book today for £3 in HMV. I've been meaning to read it so I was very happy to see it at that price.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Chevron wrote:
    Found a copy of this book today for £3 in HMV. I've been meaning to read it so I was very happy to see it at that price.

    Wow, that's a bloody good bargain. I paid almost full price I think, and it is one of the best books about film-making I've read. Totally engrossing. Enjoy.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Chevron wrote:
    Found a copy of this book today for £3 in HMV. I've been meaning to read it so I was very happy to see it at that price.

    It's a fascinating book for people genuinely interested in the transition of Bond to the big screen. What I found most interesting was the negative reaction from the Fleming estate. My impression was that it doesn't particular paint anyone in a distinctly good or bad light, it's pretty ambiguous in its portrayal of the main players. This seems true to life. One minute you feel quite sorry for McClory, the next you can't help but feel he was his own worst enemy. Then there's Fleming who through no real fault of his own probably felt overwhelmed by the tenacity of McClory.

    Anyway I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Would be good to get your thoughts.
  • myworldisenoughmyworldisenough
    Posts: 1,143
    I've got a copy of the famed 1st edition which I've been led to believe is very hard to come by. Apparently there was a section in there that wasn't to the liking of some interested party and with the threat of legal action all remaining copies were withdrawn from sale. A revised edition was then issued. I don't know the difference between the two editions and have to confess I've not yet managed to read my copy. Anyone out there know more about the differences between the editions and why the 1st edition was withdrawn?
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    edited August 2012 Posts: 370
    Having read the introduction to my second edition that I bought today I know what the difference is. The first edition included some notes of Fleming's (I think) that were included in the papers for the Thunderball trial in the 1960s. The author and publisher of the book included them as they thought they were public domain. The Fleming Will Trust people cracked down and insisted all the copies of the book be seized. The second edition then was published without the offending material but apparently with all other text as in the first edition. Len Deighton's forward also alludes to the 'censorship' of the first edition.
  • myworldisenoughmyworldisenough
    Posts: 1,143
    Chevron wrote:
    Having read the introduction to my second edition that I bought today I know what the difference is. The first edition included some notes of Fleming's (I think) that were included in the papers for the Thunderball trial in the 1960s. The author and publisher of the book included them as they thought they were public domain. The Fleming Will Trust people cracked down and insisted all the copies of the book be seized. The second edition then was published without the offending material but apparently with all other text as in the first edition. Len Deighton's forward also alludes to the 'censorship' of the first edition.

    Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I'll hopefully get round to reading soon. Sounds like its a really good read.
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    Posts: 370
    Finally got around to reading this. It's a pretty good book.

    The best section is the early part dealing with the Bryce-McClory partnership to make a Bond movie, Fleming helping develop a script, Wittingham being hired, Bryce wanting rid of McClory, Fleming going off and writing the Thunderball novel. The events are described almost day by day thanks to the legal papers the author gets to uses as a source.

    Then there is a section on the making of Thunderball where Luciana Paluzzi among others describes it from her point of view.

    There's a short section dealing with the attempts to make a new movie in the 1970s written by Len Deighton but I would have liked a little more detail on it.

    Then the last section deals with NSNA and the more up to date events including the Sony-MGM legal situation around 1999.

    Overall it's a good read and the author should be congratulated on his work on the early section in particular. He's also very even handed and doesn't paint anyone as a villan.

    Well worth £3!
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    Posts: 370
    There are still a few copies in the Belfast HMV. Ground floor at the back door, still £3 each.
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    Posts: 73
    The stuff about James Bond of the Secret Service and Warhead is amazing.

    There are photos of Connery location scouting the Statue of Liberty for the film's climax - where Bond parachutes onto it. After fighting remote-controlled sharks in the New York sewers.

    If it was made, it could have been quite something. Perhaps not a great movie, but a great spectacle. It was more The Spy Who Loved Me than the low-key Thunderball NSNA turned out to be. And it may well have been a huge success, and established a rival Bond franchise....
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited November 2017 Posts: 2,721
    The best book on Bond I've read in a long time. I found the first half truly riveting. The events leading up to and including the 1963 court case are the most insightful and the author has the benefit of the book's greatest asset - the main player's own words. McClory, Whittingham and most candidly (and damningly - especially legally) Bryce and Fleming. The author doesn't have to speculate on their agendas, motivations or opinions because they have written them in letters to each other over three years. It really brings Fleming's voice back to Iife for the reader and the mix of naïveté and arrogance from Fleming would have unbelievable ramifications for the next four decades - haunting Bond long after his creator had gone. The screenplay for the aborted 1977 film Warhead is outlined and pretty much has 'sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads.' If made it would have been more outrageous than the most excessive Moore film. The NSNA story is quite quickly skimmed over and you could almost accurately imagine how that story goes without having to read the book. Although the idea that the producer was terrified of the star was surprising. Overall - I really enjoyed this book. Recommend it to anyone on this forum. Worth it for the character revealing letters between the main four players.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I found it a very decent read and suggest anyone who hasnt got it get into branches of HMV and pick up for £3.

    I think the only bloke who came out of it well was Whittingham. Fleming and Bryce seemed guilty of naivety of what they were getting into and arrogance in equal measure. That said they brought everything to the table in terms of money and the character rights but from what I can tell Mcclory brought nothing except an ability to spend Bryces money.

    It was Bryce who paid for everything and Whittingham who wrote the screenplay, Mcclory seemed just to spend most of his time location scouting and buying dinner on expenses so for him to end up a millionaire and Jack to get nothing was particularly disgusting.
  • trevaniantrevanian
    Posts: 232
    I used to have the JAMES BOND OF THE SS script, and I can tell you, Deighton & Connery not withstanding, it was godawful bad. Except for the battle at the statue of liberty - a henchman inside gets shot by the orbiting helicopters and blood comes out of the statue's eye -- it was dull as dishwater, and then plain out stupid (robot sharks!)

    There was a handwritten note in the copy I had in early pages saying something about period piece and 1958, suggesting they were considering doing it in that way -- but that hardly jived with the hang glider and the totally over the top futuristic sub-thing Blofeld has, which would make the seaQuest and Seaview seem like the Merrimac or the Monitor.

    Probably the biggest disappointment I've ever had reading a script for an unmade movie.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    trevanian wrote:
    I used to have the JAMES BOND OF THE SS script, and I can tell you, Deighton & Connery not withstanding, it was godawful bad. Except for the battle at the statue of liberty - a henchman inside gets shot by the orbiting helicopters and blood comes out of the statue's eye -- it was dull as dishwater, and then plain out stupid (robot sharks!)

    There was a handwritten note in the copy I had in early pages saying something about period piece and 1958, suggesting they were considering doing it in that way -- but that hardly jived with the hang glider and the totally over the top futuristic sub-thing Blofeld has, which would make the seaQuest and Seaview seem like the Merrimac or the Monitor.

    Probably the biggest disappointment I've ever had reading a script for an unmade movie.

    Do you mean the Warhead script?
  • trevaniantrevanian
    Posts: 232
    It was called WARHEAD at some point too; I'm just going by what I remember was on the cover page. The old BONDAGE magazine had a lot of coverage on the McClory version during the late 70s ... mired in the Moore era (my analogy would be stuck for a very long tour in VietNam), the McClory project seemed like the 'last best hope' for me (till we somehow lucked into Dalton.)

    I'm pretty sure I got my copy from a place that advertised in STARLOG and CFQ called STILL THINGS; they sold audio tapes of TV shows too (I used to have the audio tape of a really interesting Shatner movie called THE TENTH LEVEL that I got from them.)
  • NapoleonPluralNapoleonPlural
    Posts: 512
    Yeah, that screenplay was disappointing. I think what it did was push EON to come up with a waterlogged screenplay for TSWLM to end them all, which it did, so it helped indirectly as that film is a classic. It was their way of saying, follow that! In the same way, NSNA helped EON to push the boat out for Octopussy in terms of sheer scale.

    The book is highly readable but needs some serious proofing and editing. Revelations by script doctors of NSNA Dick Clement and Ian Le Frenais are entertaining, about what a shambles the films was.
  • trevaniantrevanian
    Posts: 232
    Do they mention Coppola's involvement in a rewrite? Or at what point the "I wouldn't know - I've never lost" got into the script? I've always thought the latter must have come out of STAR TREK 2's "I don't believe in the no-win scenario - I don't like to lose."

    I only knew about these writers from the NSNA dvd included on THE CONNERY COLLECTION from KMART, they are on the extras and help make up for the terrible Kersh commentary.
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,538
    9780955767005-es.jpg

    Ok, the first edition was banned by IF Will Trust: http://tomahawkpress.com/battle-for-bond-banned-edition/

    Can someone tell me what the differences are between the first and the second edition?

    Which one should I buy?

    Thanks.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited November 2017 Posts: 2,895
    IIRC, the first edition included photos of Fleming letters that were already fully quoted in the main text. The photos were removed from the second edition. The first edition also has some of the worst copy-editing I've ever encountered--I gave up counting the typos.

    As for the book, it's worth owning but is neither well-written nor well-structured. Sellers also does a poor job of citing his sources. Just as aggravating, the book is heavily slanted toward Whittingham (a hack screenwriter no one would otherwise have heard of today), and argues he was the real architect behind the success of the screen Bond (so much for Maibaum, Young and Connery!), though that's easily disproven by the summary of Whittingham's screenplay helpfully included in the appendix. Sellers's bias is at times hilarious--he even throws in totally irrelevant photos of Whittingham's daughter, taken during her brief singing career. Fleming meanwhile is written off as a plagiarist, bad writer, and snob.
    Several years ago John Cork--probably the greatest all-around Bond expert we have--wrote a three part article tracking the genesis of Thunderball, from treatment to script to novel to film. His article demonstrated far more critical sense than Seller's entire book, and I wish it was still online.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    How could a book with such a high profile subject as Bond release with so many typing errors?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Birdleson, that bad?! Do you remember any random examples of sentences or errors?
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,538
    Wow, @Revelator I had no idea. Thanks for the info!

    I understand then that the second edition is better? Can't be worse for sure!
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