Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited August 2021 Posts: 1,692
    Having heard so much about them, I would love to locate a box set of the 80s TV movies that resemble Bond films, but so far I've been out of luck...
    ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I dunno about TV movies, but LTK sometimes looks like a Cannon film title.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,692
    For me it's the sets in LTK that let it down, almost entirely in the first 45 minutes. Krest's warehouse, while fun, does have a bit of Cannon to it. Felix's house is not good at all. And when M talks to Moneypenny, that brief moment honestly could be a TV movie.

    I think the other Glen films look much better, and I wonder if it's to do with them shooting in more real locations. I can't think of many sets built for TLD, apart from Q's lab, which I thought was quite good. In any case, once the film gets to Isthmus and the real Mexico City locations they borrowed, like the post office, I think the film looks fine.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    This "TV feel" could have something to do with the restoration work done, or not done, on each film in the series.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    LTK always had a rough look to it due to the fact that they were shooting on Mexican film stock and processing it in film labs in Mexico, which were not up to par with the previous films. Where TLD looks like a very polished production that you would expect from Bond, LTK looks harsh and grainy. When Siskel and Ebert did a review of the film, Siskel kept bringing up how he was surprised that the picture quality wasn't as good as you would expect from Bond films.

    I think the blu-ray tried to clean up the image a little for the restoration by increasing the saturation and sharpening the image, but it looks fake. The new 4K version however is probably the most accurate representation of how the film looks, for better or worse.

    Here's my screencap comparisons of LTK: https://007homemedia.blogspot.com/2020/08/licence-to-kill-1989.html
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,987
    For me it's the sets in LTK that let it down, almost entirely in the first 45 minutes. Krest's warehouse, while fun, does have a bit of Cannon to it. Felix's house is not good at all. And when M talks to Moneypenny, that brief moment honestly could be a TV movie.

    It's always been weirdly hard to shake the feeling that they've just quickly put up a couple of walls to serve as Moneypenny's office for that bit. Did they fly Bliss out to Mexico just for that?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Pretty much. That’s why you never see M’s office. Since there’s no scenes set there, they only had to build Moneypenny’s small set.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 14,987
    Oh I'm sure; I just mean it feels really obvious when you watch it that they've done it on the cheap. Other cheap quick scenes I'm sure I've never noticed, but that one really sticks out.

    One thing it strikes me that might have been nice for that scene: Moneypenny giving a longing, sad look at the empty hatstand in her room. One way to do a last reference to the hat-tossing without having to deal with the oddness of Dalton wearing a hat in 80s London! :D
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2021 Posts: 17,816
    Having heard so much about them, I would love to locate a box set of the 80s TV movies that resemble Bond films, but so far I've been out of luck...
    ;)

    Just start with Miami Vice (1984-1990) I guess. So many people say that LTK is like an extended episode of that show. I can't confirm or deny that myself as I've never seen any of it but I did buy a few seasons of it cheaply from one of those exchange shops a few years ago. I must get around to watching it some time.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,692
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having heard so much about them, I would love to locate a box set of the 80s TV movies that resemble Bond films, but so far I've been out of luck...
    ;)

    Just start with Miami Vice (1984-1990) I guess. So many people say that LTK is like an extended episode of that show. I can't confirm or deny that myself as I've never seen any of it but I did buy a few seasons of it cheaply from one of those exchange shops a few years ago. I must get around to watching it some time.

    I've seen it, and that's what I was meaning to suggest: the TV movie comparisons are really overstated...
    mtm wrote: »
    For me it's the sets in LTK that let it down, almost entirely in the first 45 minutes. Krest's warehouse, while fun, does have a bit of Cannon to it. Felix's house is not good at all. And when M talks to Moneypenny, that brief moment honestly could be a TV movie.

    It's always been weirdly hard to shake the feeling that they've just quickly put up a couple of walls to serve as Moneypenny's office for that bit. Did they fly Bliss out to Mexico just for that?

    That had to have been a depressing day of shooting. I know Tim wasn't there, but his famous on-set comment about LTK maybe being the last Bond ever must have come out of that kind of thing.

    But again, apart from some of those shoddy sets in the first half, I don't think most of LTK looks particularly cheap.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having heard so much about them, I would love to locate a box set of the 80s TV movies that resemble Bond films, but so far I've been out of luck...
    ;)

    Just start with Miami Vice (1984-1990) I guess. So many people say that LTK is like an extended episode of that show. I can't confirm or deny that myself as I've never seen any of it but I did buy a few seasons of it cheaply from one of those exchange shops a few years ago. I must get around to watching it some time.

    The setting as well as the mere fact of conflicts with drug people is pretty much it. There's the slightly harder tone too. But Dalton isn't playing Crockett and Michael Mann isn't overlooking the production with his usual "Mann-erisms". It helps that the score sounds a bit more exotic, and then there's the use of pop songs. But in my opinion, LTK is still more Bond than Miami Vice.

    Now, if Michael Mann had directed this movie... I'd have been up for that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,987
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Now, if Michael Mann had directed this movie... I'd have been up for that.

    That would have been great. Or McTiernan or Donner or someone like that.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,692
    I actually did a search to get a vibe for what TV movies in the 1980s actually looked like (hint: not like LTK!) and Michael Mann actually directed one in 1989 called L.A. Takedown...!
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I actually did a search to get a vibe for what TV movies in the 1980s actually looked like (hint: not like LTK!) and Michael Mann actually directed one in 1989 called L.A. Takedown...!

    Yes, he remade it as Heat. It features the exact same scenes and structure, only over 90 minutes instead of 3 hours. It's great.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    I actually did a search to get a vibe for what TV movies in the 1980s actually looked like (hint: not like LTK!) and Michael Mann actually directed one in 1989 called L.A. Takedown...!

    Yes, he remade it as Heat. It features the exact same scenes and structure, only over 90 minutes instead of 3 hours. It's great.

    Still, HEAT is the superior film IMO.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,985
    mtm wrote: »
    For me it's the sets in LTK that let it down, almost entirely in the first 45 minutes. Krest's warehouse, while fun, does have a bit of Cannon to it. Felix's house is not good at all. And when M talks to Moneypenny, that brief moment honestly could be a TV movie.

    It's always been weirdly hard to shake the feeling that they've just quickly put up a couple of walls to serve as Moneypenny's office for that bit. Did they fly Bliss out to Mexico just for that?

    I thought they filmed a tiny bit at Pinewood, just to keep the tradition going. I always assumed it was Moneypenny.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I actually did a search to get a vibe for what TV movies in the 1980s actually looked like (hint: not like LTK!) and Michael Mann actually directed one in 1989 called L.A. Takedown...!

    Yes, he remade it as Heat. It features the exact same scenes and structure, only over 90 minutes instead of 3 hours. It's great.

    Still, HEAT is the superior film IMO.

    This is the controversial opinions thread, so personally I prefer LA Takedown (I first encountered it as LA Crimewave, which was how it was released on VHS originally in the UK).

    Obviously Heat has the actors and the budget, but I like the leanness of LA Takedown.

    Every scene in LA Takedown appears in Heat, so if you re-edited the latter into the same running time of the former, then you'd have the perfect combination.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,692
    I did not know this! (Clearly!)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,987
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    For me it's the sets in LTK that let it down, almost entirely in the first 45 minutes. Krest's warehouse, while fun, does have a bit of Cannon to it. Felix's house is not good at all. And when M talks to Moneypenny, that brief moment honestly could be a TV movie.

    It's always been weirdly hard to shake the feeling that they've just quickly put up a couple of walls to serve as Moneypenny's office for that bit. Did they fly Bliss out to Mexico just for that?

    I thought they filmed a tiny bit at Pinewood, just to keep the tradition going. I always assumed it was Moneypenny.

    That would make sense, you'd think, yeah.
  • Posts: 15,825
    LTK always had a rough look to it due to the fact that they were shooting on Mexican film stock and processing it in film labs in Mexico, which were not up to par with the previous films. Where TLD looks like a very polished production that you would expect from Bond, LTK looks harsh and grainy. When Siskel and Ebert did a review of the film, Siskel kept bringing up how he was surprised that the picture quality wasn't as good as you would expect from Bond films.

    I think the blu-ray tried to clean up the image a little for the restoration by increasing the saturation and sharpening the image, but it looks fake. The new 4K version however is probably the most accurate representation of how the film looks, for better or worse.

    Here's my screencap comparisons of LTK: https://007homemedia.blogspot.com/2020/08/licence-to-kill-1989.html

    I always find your posts regarding the different editions of the Bonds fascinating, @MakeshiftPython.

    Every time I watch the Blu-ray of LTK I find myself pointing out that it looks a little too good for that film. There's a reel change that occurs during the casino sequence as it cuts to a close up of Sanchez looking at the television. The film stock changed considerably in that moment and looked completely different. The Blu-ray evens the image out so it's not so noticeable.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited August 2021 Posts: 2,252
    Oh yes. Brilliant work on the home media comparisons!
  • Posts: 1,394
    Regarding Lazenby being propped up by good editing and direction in his fight scenes in OHMSS,Iv read Vic Armstrong’s biography and he actually praises Lazenby quite a bit.When Lazenby turned up for fight rehearsals and the shooting of the actual fight scenes,he came to FIGHT and he turned out to be a natural.It makes the stunt and fight arrangers jobs much easier.
  • Posts: 14,840
    My controversial opinion: sometimes I only find interest in watching parts of a Bond film rather than the whole thing. TND, TWINE, TMWTGG especially.
  • Posts: 2,896
    In each of those cases the parts are better than the whole.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    It’s been many years since I ever tried watching those three all the way through. The last time I probably even bothered watching parts at all was for when I was working on screencap comparisons between home media releases.
  • Posts: 1,641
    One of the stunt men in HK told Laz to tone it down a notch as he was afraid hed hurt them
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Don't think it's controversial especially for us because we've all watched the films too many times to count!
  • Posts: 1,571
    As for parts being better than the whole, oh boy, that sure applies to many a movie, but, specifically, certainly more than just three of the Bond films...so many times what they've put out has moments that just stop a fan dead in their tracks, ruin the suspension of disbelief, ie, take the viewer out of the created world, and you go on and the whole film becomes a "well, except for this and that" and hoping they'll do better next time.
  • Posts: 14,840
    Since62 wrote: »
    As for parts being better than the whole, oh boy, that sure applies to many a movie, but, specifically, certainly more than just three of the Bond films...so many times what they've put out has moments that just stop a fan dead in their tracks, ruin the suspension of disbelief, ie, take the viewer out of the created world, and you go on and the whole film becomes a "well, except for this and that" and hoping they'll do better next time.

    Well, I said these three in particular. But I could add AVTAK, YOLT, MR and LTK.
  • Posts: 2,896
    I'd add all those too aside from LTK, which I consider a more coherent and well-plotted film that grows in force toward its climax.
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