Would you rather tour of Drax Enterprises with Dr. Goodhead OR get treatment at Shrublands with Pat?

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Comments

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited July 10 Posts: 9,509
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    Going off-topic here, but I'm not one of those people. I've never had any complaints about the action in his films. If what we got in, say, Inception or The Dark Knight were the level of action we'd get in the next Bond, I'd be most pleased.

    Same here @DarthDimi

    Glad I'm not alone, @SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷. ;-)
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    Going off-topic here, but I'm not one of those people. I've never had any complaints about the action in his films. If what we got in, say, Inception or The Dark Knight were the level of action we'd get in the next Bond, I'd be most pleased.

    I am somewhat agnostic. I didn't love his action sequences, although plenty had amazing concepts and were unique. But I didn't dislike them.

    I do believe these action sequences could have been masterful with a seasoned second unit director running the team.

    @peter I suppose there is room for improvement. Falling in love with Nolan's concepts is what my love for the man's work is mostly based on anyway. He finds ways to be original in an era when people complain about lack of originality, though he's not always rewarded for his efforts. Even in his action scenes, he tries out new things, like the elevator fights in Inception, the amazing - AMAZING! - truck flip in The Dark Knight ("Not good. Okay, that is NOT good!"), the heavily criticised yet technically cool mirror action effects in Tenet, and so on. Those ideas "wow" the hell out of me. I love the truck stuff in LTK and will not take anything away from it, but if the truck flip from The Dark Knight had been in a Bond film instead, I would have soiled my undies. :-D

    @DarthDimi , no doubt about it: Nolan always looks for unique ways to tell a story, to represent character and to shoot action.

    EDIT: Excuse double post!
  • Posts: 1,396
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    Yes that's why we have bad Marvel movies too, they hire inexperienced directors.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,220
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    Yes that's why we have bad Marvel movies too, they hire inexperienced directors.

    Those Marvel films hardly do any action, they do CGI. The practical stuff that we see in Bond or in Nolan's films is an entirely different thing. "Bad Marvel movies" has more to do with writing, greed and too many films and tv series crammed in one year.
  • Posts: 1,396
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    Yes that's why we have bad Marvel movies too, they hire inexperienced directors.

    Those Marvel films hardly do any action, they do CGI. The practical stuff that we see in Bond or in Nolan's films is an entirely different thing. "Bad Marvel movies" has more to do with writing, greed and too many films and tv series crammed in one year.

    Yes but these directors don't even know what CGI means ;)

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,507
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.
  • Posts: 4,236
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    Yes that's why we have bad Marvel movies too, they hire inexperienced directors.

    Those Marvel films hardly do any action, they do CGI. The practical stuff that we see in Bond or in Nolan's films is an entirely different thing. "Bad Marvel movies" has more to do with writing, greed and too many films and tv series crammed in one year.

    Yes but these directors don't even know what CGI means ;)

    Directing for CGI can be a skill in itself to be fair. When it goes disastrously wrong you can really tell (ie. look at the bizarre decisions Tom Hooper made when directing Cats/how badly he screwed over the VFX artists).
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 10 Posts: 3,154
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Forster in QoS which directed the frenetic action scenes in QoS
    Although Dan Bradley directed those, tbf - including the opening car chase. Forster gets the stick, but much of what people complain about was Bradley's work.

    Agree with 007HallY re. Boyle's departure from NTTD being a good thing. Still remember my heart sinking a bit when he was announced and the relief when he walked. Did we really want Bond to spend most of a movie held captive in Russia by the villain? Beyond the initial intrigue of seeing Craig sustaining that kind of claustrophobic intensity, I have to say I wasn't keen on that idea when this site reported it back in in 2019. Happy and Glorious is enough Boyle-Bond for me, tbh.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I really enjoy both TWINE and SP, both have great performances from Pierce and Daniel.
    I'll pick SP, even though the story and script is far from perfect, I love the PTS and the train fight
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited July 10 Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    Yes, I couldn't stand that sequence. And the caviar factory was really messy. As you guys were saying today: this set piece should have had our hearts pumping. Instead it was loud and visually flat, with too much happening. The best action sequences, to me, build from one obstacle to another. It may look like "chaos" as viewers, but behind the scenes the second unit director, under the supervision of the director, builds step by step. It's a sweet science, and I admire these talented teams. Through their spectacle we also get more sense of our characters.

    If one wants to ever learn about story, talk to stunt people. These guys have story running through their veins. Many of them are great story tellers, with fantastic re-call and are highly imaginative. My friend, Mic Rodgers (stunt legend, second unit director, Academy Award winner for The Mic Rig), told me an awesome story about the scene in Lethal Weapon 4, and when Jet Li is first introduced to Riggs and Murtaugh up close. The scene takes place at Murtaugh's house, and Li is absolutely having his way with Riggs.

    Our two cops join forces, and in the middle of this fight, all three pull out their guns and get them aimed at the same time.

    Now what? We've seen these stand offs before, so how was the Lethal team going to make this interesting?

    First step was Li resigning, giving up, lowering his weapon, and then he strikes:

    While he kicks Glover, he actually strips Gibson' s gun, at the same time.

    The stunt crew came up with this idea. Didn't even know if it could actually be done IRL, researched it, found out it was possible. Then--

    They rehearsed the scene, and pulled it off (yes, Li, stripped the prop gun in the way it would, and could, be done, in real life (with a few tweaks to the prop gun, but, "movie magic")!)!!

    This wasn't just a cool scene, but also a character scene (about the teamwork of R&M, but also about Jet Li: The crew wanted to show how deadly, fast, and highly intelligent he was (and how our heroes will be in deep-you-know-what, every time they face off against this monster).

    Stunt crews elevate projects. They elevate story through action. They elevate character. And they don't get the credit they deserve, IMO.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 10 Posts: 2,129
    TWINE's PTS is really good, though. The bank escape that features Brosnan's Bond slickness and Arnold's fast-paced Bond theme to match Brosnan's Bond. The speedboat chase as well, really good with the music. The film is not all that bad, but it would have been better, if a proper action director was helming it. He would have made the dramatic moments more subtle to suit Brosnan's Bond, like Campbell did with Brosnan's in the reflective beach scene with Natalya in GE with Serra's beautifully poignant music adding to the scene. Maybe Apted was trying to force a dramatic performance from Brosnan.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,450
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    Is that the direction though or the script and transitions from action to quiet moments. I loved the pay-off of the action moment in the caviar factory. Valentin with the Insurance comment. Got a big laugh in the theatre!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,507
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    Yes, I couldn't stand that sequence. And the caviar factory was really messy. As you guys were saying today: this set piece should have had our hearts pumping. Instead it was loud and visually flat, with too much happening. The best action sequences, to me, build from one obstacle to another. It may look like "chaos" as viewers, but behind the scenes the second unit director, under the supervision of the director, builds step by step. It's a sweet science, and I admire these talented teams. Through their spectacle we also get more sense of our characters.

    If one wants to ever learn about story, talk to stunt people. These guys have story running through their veins. Many of them are great story tellers, with fantastic re-call and are highly imaginative. My friend, Mic Rodgers (stunt legend, second unit director, Academy Award winner for The Mic Rig), told me an awesome story about the scene in Lethal Weapon 4, and when Jet Li is first introduced to Riggs and Murtaugh up close. The scene takes place at Murtaugh's house, and Li is absolutely having his way with Riggs.

    Our two cops join forces, and in the middle of this fight, all three pull out their guns and get them aimed at the same time.

    Now what? We've seen these stand offs before, so how was the Lethal team going to make this interesting?

    First step was Li resigning, giving up, lowering his weapon, and then he strikes:

    While he kicks Glover, he actually strips Gibson' s gun, at the same time.

    The stunt crew came up with this idea. Didn't even know if it could actually be done IRL, researched it, found out it was possible. Then--

    They rehearsed the scene, and pulled it off (yes, Li, stripped the prop gun in the way it would, and could, be done, in real life (with a few tweaks to the prop gun, but, "movie magic")!)!!

    This wasn't just a cool scene, but also a character scene (about the teamwork of R&M, but also about Jet Li: The crew wanted to show how deadly, fast, and highly intelligent he was (and how our heroes will be in deep-you-know-what, every time they face off against this monster).

    Stunt crews elevate projects. They elevate story through action. They elevate character. And they don't get the credit they deserve, IMO.

    That's a really fun and interesting story, thanks for sharing.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,300
    Yes, in my recent rewatch of TWINE that line really stood out. It got a laugh from me and I had to rewind it just to hear it again. As I've said here before, Zukovsky was one of the greatest characters of the Brosnan era and his two appearances in GE and TWINE added a lot to those films.
  • Posts: 1,921
    SP all the way. Not great by any means, but when TWINE is my least favorite film in the entire series, that says volumes.

    TWINE peaks at the precredits and just falls apart from there. It feels like something of a dry run for the Craig era, with the creative team wanting to try new ideas and a more dramatic direction but weren't fully committed to it, thus adding the tropes like having the sexy girl with the outrageous name for Bond to have a bad quip with in the end; having a villain who can't feel pain and not doing anything with it; Zukovsky being turned from a respected gangster into a bumbling comedy figure, kind of like they did to the Marcus character in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Somebody mentioned TWINE had better gadgets, but that avalanche shelter thing was among the worst. Bond didn't go on this mission expecting to go to a snowy environment, but there he is with the perfect gadget.

    The action is among the worst of the modern era with nothing that stands out in the film proper. During the ski chase I can almost hear an assistant yelling to set the explosion as Bond's stunt double goes from side to side, and the parahawks come off as clunky instead of intimidating. The saw thing at the caviar factory is like something rejected in the Moore era and the ending is just flat.

    They make a big deal of Bond being injured and then it's conveniently forgotten by mid film. Then there's Bond being played for the fool the whole time. I couldn't imagine the Connery or Moore versions being taken in by all this. It's also a very drab-looking film, mostly overcast and dull and the locations are among the least engaging, nowhere near as mysterious or romantic as in FRWL.

    SP is a masterpiece compared to this.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    Yes, I couldn't stand that sequence. And the caviar factory was really messy. As you guys were saying today: this set piece should have had our hearts pumping. Instead it was loud and visually flat, with too much happening. The best action sequences, to me, build from one obstacle to another. It may look like "chaos" as viewers, but behind the scenes the second unit director, under the supervision of the director, builds step by step. It's a sweet science, and I admire these talented teams. Through their spectacle we also get more sense of our characters.

    If one wants to ever learn about story, talk to stunt people. These guys have story running through their veins. Many of them are great story tellers, with fantastic re-call and are highly imaginative. My friend, Mic Rodgers (stunt legend, second unit director, Academy Award winner for The Mic Rig), told me an awesome story about the scene in Lethal Weapon 4, and when Jet Li is first introduced to Riggs and Murtaugh up close. The scene takes place at Murtaugh's house, and Li is absolutely having his way with Riggs.

    Our two cops join forces, and in the middle of this fight, all three pull out their guns and get them aimed at the same time.

    Now what? We've seen these stand offs before, so how was the Lethal team going to make this interesting?

    First step was Li resigning, giving up, lowering his weapon, and then he strikes:

    While he kicks Glover, he actually strips Gibson' s gun, at the same time.

    The stunt crew came up with this idea. Didn't even know if it could actually be done IRL, researched it, found out it was possible. Then--

    They rehearsed the scene, and pulled it off (yes, Li, stripped the prop gun in the way it would, and could, be done, in real life (with a few tweaks to the prop gun, but, "movie magic")!)!!

    This wasn't just a cool scene, but also a character scene (about the teamwork of R&M, but also about Jet Li: The crew wanted to show how deadly, fast, and highly intelligent he was (and how our heroes will be in deep-you-know-what, every time they face off against this monster).

    Stunt crews elevate projects. They elevate story through action. They elevate character. And they don't get the credit they deserve, IMO.

    That's a really fun and interesting story, thanks for sharing.

    No problem @mtm … a little love to these ladies and gents. They’re not only great athletes, not only fearless, but genuinely play a huge role in productions!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 10 Posts: 16,507
    BT3366 wrote: »
    The action is among the worst of the modern era with nothing that stands out in the film proper. During the ski chase I can almost hear an assistant yelling to set the explosion as Bond's stunt double goes from side to side, and the parahawks come off as clunky instead of intimidating.

    The bit I always laugh at is where it's inexplicably edited so that Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double.
    Seriously: have a look at this bit at 4:07



    giphy.gif

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 10 Posts: 18,300
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It's also a very drab-looking film, mostly overcast and dull and the locations are among the least engaging, nowhere near as mysterious or romantic as in FRWL.

    Funnily enough that's exactly what I thought on my recent rewatch of TWINE. I was surprised how dull and drab it all looked compared to the older Bond films which were generally much more cheery and colourful looking. Perhaps it was the fact that so many scenes were set at night but I did notice all the darkness in this one and it doesn't help the optics of the film much.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,507
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It's also a very drab-looking film, mostly overcast and dull and the locations are among the least engaging, nowhere near as mysterious or romantic as in FRWL.

    Funnily enough that's exactly what I thought on my recent rewatch of TWINE. I was surprised how dull and drab it all looked compared to the older Bond films which were generally much more cheery and colourful looking. Perhaps it was the fact that so many scenes were set at night but I did notice all the darkness in this one and it doesn't help the optics of the film much.

    Tomorrow Never Dies is all steel and red and neon blues, TWINE is overbearingly brown. Even Bond's ski suit is brown.
  • Posts: 1,921
    mtm wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    The action is among the worst of the modern era with nothing that stands out in the film proper. During the ski chase I can almost hear an assistant yelling to set the explosion as Bond's stunt double goes from side to side, and the parahawks come off as clunky instead of intimidating.

    The bit I always laugh at is where it's inexplicably edited so that Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double.
    Seriously: have a look at this bit at 4:07



    giphy.gif

    Ha! Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, there you go.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,166
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It's also a very drab-looking film, mostly overcast and dull and the locations are among the least engaging, nowhere near as mysterious or romantic as in FRWL.

    Funnily enough that's exactly what I thought on my recent rewatch of TWINE. I was surprised how dull and drab it all looked compared to the older Bond films which were generally much more cheery and colourful looking. Perhaps it was the fact that so many scenes were set at night but I did notice all the darkness in this one and it doesn't help the optics of the film much.

    Tomorrow Never Dies is all steel and red and neon blues, TWINE is overbearingly brown. Even Bond's ski suit is brown.

    I think TND looks really good. Perhaps not colourful like the older ones, but skillfully done nonetheless. It suits the film.

    TWINE's cinematography also suits the film though imo. It just happens to be set in a post-industrial ex-USSR landscape, which isn't very colourful to begin with...
  • Posts: 1,860
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    Yes, I couldn't stand that sequence. And the caviar factory was really messy. As you guys were saying today: this set piece should have had our hearts pumping. Instead it was loud and visually flat, with too much happening. The best action sequences, to me, build from one obstacle to another. It may look like "chaos" as viewers, but behind the scenes the second unit director, under the supervision of the director, builds step by step. It's a sweet science, and I admire these talented teams. Through their spectacle we also get more sense of our characters.

    If one wants to ever learn about story, talk to stunt people. These guys have story running through their veins. Many of them are great story tellers, with fantastic re-call and are highly imaginative. My friend, Mic Rodgers (stunt legend, second unit director, Academy Award winner for The Mic Rig), told me an awesome story about the scene in Lethal Weapon 4, and when Jet Li is first introduced to Riggs and Murtaugh up close. The scene takes place at Murtaugh's house, and Li is absolutely having his way with Riggs.

    Our two cops join forces, and in the middle of this fight, all three pull out their guns and get them aimed at the same time.

    Now what? We've seen these stand offs before, so how was the Lethal team going to make this interesting?

    First step was Li resigning, giving up, lowering his weapon, and then he strikes:

    While he kicks Glover, he actually strips Gibson' s gun, at the same time.

    The stunt crew came up with this idea. Didn't even know if it could actually be done IRL, researched it, found out it was possible. Then--

    They rehearsed the scene, and pulled it off (yes, Li, stripped the prop gun in the way it would, and could, be done, in real life (with a few tweaks to the prop gun, but, "movie magic")!)!!

    This wasn't just a cool scene, but also a character scene (about the teamwork of R&M, but also about Jet Li: The crew wanted to show how deadly, fast, and highly intelligent he was (and how our heroes will be in deep-you-know-what, every time they face off against this monster).

    Stunt crews elevate projects. They elevate story through action. They elevate character. And they don't get the credit they deserve, IMO.

    Cool story, he knows his stuff. Not seen Mic since LW 4.
  • Posts: 1,496
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    I saw the original cut of the ski chase - a good mate was one of the editing team on the film - and it was far superior to the final version. It had a much faster pace, sharper editing, more rugged feel, but for some reason they smoothed it all out and, in doing so, lost the urgency and pace.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,220
    The ski chase is where I throw my hands in the air. Indeed, it feels slower than the boat in Speed 2. Arnold tries to get a beat in, but even he cannot give this sequence a sense of kinetic power.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 11 Posts: 16,507
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    I saw the original cut of the ski chase - a good mate was one of the editing team on the film - and it was far superior to the final version. It had a much faster pace, sharper editing, more rugged feel, but for some reason they smoothed it all out and, in doing so, lost the urgency and pace.

    That's fascinating; that matches my earlier comment that this film is one scuppered by the editing, amongst other things! Do you remember if that cut had music on it? I do wonder if Arnold's dull, plodding music doesn't help to kill the sequence.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    delfloria wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    Yes, I couldn't stand that sequence. And the caviar factory was really messy. As you guys were saying today: this set piece should have had our hearts pumping. Instead it was loud and visually flat, with too much happening. The best action sequences, to me, build from one obstacle to another. It may look like "chaos" as viewers, but behind the scenes the second unit director, under the supervision of the director, builds step by step. It's a sweet science, and I admire these talented teams. Through their spectacle we also get more sense of our characters.

    If one wants to ever learn about story, talk to stunt people. These guys have story running through their veins. Many of them are great story tellers, with fantastic re-call and are highly imaginative. My friend, Mic Rodgers (stunt legend, second unit director, Academy Award winner for The Mic Rig), told me an awesome story about the scene in Lethal Weapon 4, and when Jet Li is first introduced to Riggs and Murtaugh up close. The scene takes place at Murtaugh's house, and Li is absolutely having his way with Riggs.

    Our two cops join forces, and in the middle of this fight, all three pull out their guns and get them aimed at the same time.

    Now what? We've seen these stand offs before, so how was the Lethal team going to make this interesting?

    First step was Li resigning, giving up, lowering his weapon, and then he strikes:

    While he kicks Glover, he actually strips Gibson' s gun, at the same time.

    The stunt crew came up with this idea. Didn't even know if it could actually be done IRL, researched it, found out it was possible. Then--

    They rehearsed the scene, and pulled it off (yes, Li, stripped the prop gun in the way it would, and could, be done, in real life (with a few tweaks to the prop gun, but, "movie magic")!)!!

    This wasn't just a cool scene, but also a character scene (about the teamwork of R&M, but also about Jet Li: The crew wanted to show how deadly, fast, and highly intelligent he was (and how our heroes will be in deep-you-know-what, every time they face off against this monster).

    Stunt crews elevate projects. They elevate story through action. They elevate character. And they don't get the credit they deserve, IMO.

    Cool story, he knows his stuff. Not seen Mic since LW 4.

    He and I have a couple of projects going. I didn't know you knew Mic! If you want to DM me I can pass on any message.

    He's a cool guy, isn't he?
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 11 Posts: 2,129
    Just imagine if someone like John McTiernan directed TWINE...Gosh! With those same action scenes. He even got a slick TND-esque Bondian performance out of Brosnan in a non-Bond film.
  • Posts: 1,396
    Or Roger Donaldson (a more realistic alternative)
  • Posts: 1,496
    mtm wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Apted was an excellent director to be fair, and had a big cultural impact; it's just that Bond perhaps wasn't in his wheelhouse.

    I think Apted was a good actor's director, but action wasn't his forte. That shouldn't have been an issue either, since the Bond family has its second units and action crew and such. I prefer the action of TND and DAD to the action of TWINE.

    That was the problem, I guess. This movie has "two directors".

    Every big action film you’ve watched, minus Nolan, has a second unit director in place to shoot the action.

    (Hence why some ppl think Nolan’s action sequences were a little lacking).

    True, but in TWINE it’s quite noticeable.
    Apted was good at character stuff, and Vic Armstrong the second unit.
    But meshing it all together didn’t seem to work.

    I'd blame that more on Armstrong. I thought by TWINE his talents as a second unit were lazy and uninteresting.

    I think the low point is the ski chase: shot in big wide shots from half a mile away with not very fast-moving skiers, it's one of the most deathly Bond action scenes, especially as it's really unimportant to the plot, and you really feel it.

    I saw the original cut of the ski chase - a good mate was one of the editing team on the film - and it was far superior to the final version. It had a much faster pace, sharper editing, more rugged feel, but for some reason they smoothed it all out and, in doing so, lost the urgency and pace.

    That's fascinating; that matches my earlier comment that this film is one scuppered by the editing, amongst other things! Do you remember if that cut had music on it? I do wonder if Arnold's dull, plodding music doesn't help to kill the sequence.

    It had temp music, I think from TND. Composers don't normally fully score until the film is fine cut, or very close to final cut. Obviously they prepare and write themes and cues as soon as they are shown an early cut of the film. Often, working with the Music Editor, they suggest good pieces of already produced music to add to the early cuts of the film as a guide to the final score and where the cues will begin and end.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,799
    I think I've opened up the Pandora's box for a lot more deeper discussions like this 😅.
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