Man With The Golden Gun - was 007 the bad guy?

mtmmtm United Kingdom
in Bond Movies Posts: 14,861
Here's an interesting idea I saw elsewhere and I'd have to agree that the plot is quite odd for a Bond movie. Not only is that dreaded thing amongst Bond fans: 'the personal mission' (Bond's life is threatened and so M takes him off the mission and he goes on leave!); it's also a plot in which Bond seems to be the aggressor rather than defending the world.

Gibson is a scientist who has seemingly left the UK to work for Hai Fat and Scaramanga, and under their employ he develops the Solex (the British weren't aware he'd made it until he approached them in Hong Kong), so it's reasonable to say that Fat and Scaramanga own the Solex rightfully. He then decides he wants to go back to the UK and essentially steals the Solex as part of his bargaining.
Scaramanga meanwhile has been framed for planning to kill Bond, which isn't the case. Bond pursues him and discovers this, but also finds out that Scaramanga is attempting to recover his Solex. The British have no claim on this beyond the fact that Gibson, who invented it but also effectively stole it, offered it to them in a deal that was never completed. Scaramanga hasn't exactly been pure white in this having killed Fat and Gibson, but even so, he's got more of a claim on the Solex than the British do. So even though Scaramanga has nothing against Bond and doesn't plan to kill him, Bond goes after him and decides to take his property. And because he has a personal distaste for what Scaramanga does (even though killing him will hardly stop the assassination market) he basically decides to go and murder Scaramanga and take his Solex for England. Killing him would even be a pleasure, he admits.
Bond even suggests that the oil companies would pay the owner of the Solex to keep it under wraps... is that the British Government's plan too?

So is Bond/MI6 actually acting morally right here or are they just going out into the world and taking something they want by killing someone who hasn't actually even threatened them? A bit like Kristatos going after the ATAC. Is Scaramanga Bond's victim to some extent?

Comments

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Interesting thought. I suppose Bond is being played by Anders. This isn't known to the audience or Bond for a good chunk of the picture. M is the one who suggests that Bond settle the score and face Scaramanga.

    Gibson is morally a bit suspect. He is wanting to go back to the UK. Why he can't just go and needs to meet with Hip. Why meet with Hip? A low level agent. But I never understood why Gibson would want to "defect" or thought this was a complicated matter.

    Scaramanga idolizes Bond and considers him to be a peer. This, in spite of the fact that we have never seen Bond perform an assignation on film. He attempts to kill the guy coming out of Elke Sommers mouth but Bey takes over. No matter Scaramanga feels Bond is his equal. Bond is repulsed by Scaramanga and agrees to his challenge. It takes on a personal edge. I think Bond doesn't like the comparison as it might hit a little too close to home.

    Do I consider Bond to the villain of the piece? No, he has different motivation for completing the mission but he's not the villain of the movie.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 14,861
    thedove wrote: »
    Gibson is morally a bit suspect. He is wanting to go back to the UK. Why he can't just go and needs to meet with Hip. Why meet with Hip? A low level agent. But I never understood why Gibson would want to "defect" or thought this was a complicated matter.

    Yes I do wonder why he doesn't just go home. Presumably he must've left in slightly dodgy circumstances and presumably is thought of as working for the Red Chinese despite Fat being in Thailand. It's weirdly vague.
    thedove wrote: »
    Do I consider Bond to the villain of the piece? No, he has different motivation for completing the mission but he's not the villain of the movie.

    Yes probably not the bad guy as such, but he is the antagonist in a way I'm not sure he is in many other Bond films. And I think his, and MI6's, motivations aren't as heroic as usual. Unusually the 'big plan' isn't the villain's plan but the British plan: obtain the Solex.

    I do wonder why they didn't just have Bond and Scaramanga racing to get hold of the Solex from a third party or something, or that Gibson had stolen the Solex from the British in the first place. In the version of the film we have it's hard not to conclude that it does, more or less, rightfully belong to Scaramanga.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Clearly Fat bankrolled the operation. Or at least we are lead to believe that. Scaramanga does tell Bond that him and the Chinese have "an arrangement" and it would appear that Gibson did work on the island for him so maybe that gave him the impression that he was working for communists.

    On a James Bond and Friends podcast they talked about TMWTGG and LTK being a bit similar which at first glance seems preposterous. However Bond is clearly intent on one thing and it doesn't really concern his government. We see a side to Moore's Bond that we don't see again till LTK. This Bond roughs up woman. He goes on the aggressive to get the villain. LTK Bond clearly is the aggressor, in fact Sanchez provides hospitality to Bond and even involves him in his operation.

    It is an interesting angle you have presented @mtm
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Oh I knew that the book of TMWTGG had similarities to LTK but I’d never considered that the films have parallels too, that’s an interesting thought. Thanks dove.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 14,861
    I was also thinking how crazy the Solex plot is anyway. You have a film where your villain is the world's greatest assassin... and your plot is about a solar energy macguffin that looks like a pack of fags? Was Edward Fox trying to get himself a Solex in Day of the Jackal? No, he was trying to assassinate someone! That's what assassins do! So why isn't Bond racing to stop Scaramanga from killing some massive VIP and starting WW3 at the end?!

    Really weird plotting. It's just logical.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Yes I agree. Because they lost the novels reason for sending Bond after Scaramanga they needed to come up with something. I suppose they thought an assassination movie wouldn't hold audiences attention.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I agree. Because they lost the novels reason for sending Bond after Scaramanga they needed to come up with something. I suppose they thought an assassination movie wouldn't hold audiences attention.

    Even the novel doesn't have him planning an assassination though does it? He's just building a hotel and doing everything baddies do but without actually assassinating anyone, despite being an assassin! :)
    I don't see why audiences wouldn't go with that as long as the stakes are high enough.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited May 2020 Posts: 4,399
    i think the point we are all missing here though - or it hasn't been mentioned, is Scaramanga and Sanchez are despicable human beings.. they have charming sophistication about them that is undeniable - but remember what their plans were beyond just who they are as people...

    yes, MI6's plans in TMWTGG could be veiwed in the grey area of morality.. but remember the time and place.. Scaramanga's plan was to sell the Solex tech and the Laser Gun to the highest bidder, which i believe was the real point of the Solex to begin with - sure it had it's energy saving facade, but we all saw what else that technology was capable of.. and at the time, possibly letting that tech fall into the hands of Communist China or Soviet Russia in a bidding war was something Mi6 was not going to let happen..

    Scaramanga, the man himself, is a cold blooded killer... Bond is a killer too - he even addresses it, but he also says "the men he kills are themselves killers.".. while murder on any level is a sin, to Bond there is a moral difference he sees because he doesn't murder innocent people, or people in cold blood.. even Bond's coldest kills you could argue are just (within context).. plus when doing so, its under orders of his government to do so - he isn't freelance..

    in terms of Sanchez.. remember, he is dealing in not only narcotics, but black market arms dealing, and even threatened to commit acts of terrorism against innocent civilians by threatening to shoot down an airliner.. and also, he is a murderer... remember too, he killed an innocent woman, and nearly killed Felix to just to get back at him for getting him arrested.. it's one thing to go after Felix, but to go after his wife - and basically ordered to have her raped and then murdered.. that's pretty evil.

    but the duality of these specific villains tho is what i think makes them 2 of the better villains in the entire franchise.. their motives are clear, and they believe what they are doing is morally right.. but they have a lot of charisma that makes it sort of easy to want to look past just how bad they are..
  • Posts: 3,273
    Scaramanga and Sanchez share so many traits. They even share the same initials.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 14,861
    HASEROT wrote: »
    i think the point we are all missing here though - or it hasn't been mentioned, is Scaramanga and Sanchez are despicable human beings.. they have charming sophistication about them that is undeniable - but remember what their plans were beyond just who they are as people...

    yes, MI6's plans in TMWTGG could be veiwed in the grey area of morality.. but remember the time and place.. Scaramanga's plan was to sell the Solex tech and the Laser Gun to the highest bidder, which i believe was the real point of the Solex to begin with - sure it had it's energy saving facade, but we all saw what else that technology was capable of.. and at the time, possibly letting that tech fall into the hands of Communist China or Soviet Russia in a bidding war was something Mi6 was not going to let happen..

    Scaramanga, the man himself, is a cold blooded killer... Bond is a killer too - he even addresses it, but he also says "the men he kills are themselves killers.".. while murder on any level is a sin, to Bond there is a moral difference he sees because he doesn't murder innocent people, or people in cold blood.. even Bond's coldest kills you could argue are just (within context).. plus when doing so, its under orders of his government to do so - he isn't freelance..

    No ones saying he isn’t a bad sort of guy, but unlike Sanchez Scaramanga isn’t even threatening any innocents. He’s a paid assassin, sure, but once he’s gone his clients will just find another assassin: Bond hasn’t ended the assassination market by killing him.

    As for selling the Solex to the highest bidder... well that’s rather how business works, and although Scaramanga went to extremes to ensure the Solex remained his, it was essentially rightfully his. If the British want it there’s nothing to say he won’t let them buy it from him. But their first resort is to take it by force, they don’t even try. Would M have ordered Bond to kill Gibson once they’d found him in Hong Kong I wonder?
    And what do they do with it? We never hear of a solar revolution, so did they let the oil companies pay them off perhaps...?

    Are MI6 ever shown as morally dubious in any other Bond film? I’m trying to think.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Scaramanga and Sanchez share so many traits. They even share the same initials.

    Yes I always forget that. That is a massive clue that the film is based on that book!
    :)
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    mtm wrote: »
    No ones saying he isn’t a bad sort of guy, but unlike Sanchez Scaramanga isn’t even threatening any innocents. He’s a paid assassin, sure, but once he’s gone his clients will just find another assassin: Bond hasn’t ended the assassination market by killing him.

    what about him killing Andrea Anders?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    HASEROT wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    No ones saying he isn’t a bad sort of guy, but unlike Sanchez Scaramanga isn’t even threatening any innocents. He’s a paid assassin, sure, but once he’s gone his clients will just find another assassin: Bond hasn’t ended the assassination market by killing him.

    what about him killing Andrea Anders?

    Well I'm certainly not saying he's a nice man, but she has framed him and attracted the attention of the world's greatest secret agent to try and kill him. From his point of view, she did sort of start it!
    :D
  • Agent_OneAgent_One Ireland
    Posts: 280
    mtm wrote: »
    Are MI6 ever shown as morally dubious in any other Bond film? I’m trying to think.
    They're pretty cold and uncaring in LTK.

  • Posts: 7,653
    MI6 uncaring and cold there a new thought. If they cuddled 007 more he might have done his job better?- Really the intelligence community is never caring but has different interests, and their choices can more often than not be seen as morally dubious as their choices are not guided by any other choice as national interests.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 14,861
    Agent_One wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Are MI6 ever shown as morally dubious in any other Bond film? I’m trying to think.
    They're pretty cold and uncaring in LTK.

    True, but the worst they do there is choose to not do anything, whereas in TMWTGG they're actively going out there and taking what they want. Not even from another state but from a private individual.

    I think it'd be quite an interesting angle and it's kind of surprising the films haven't gone there yet: with Bond actually disagreeing with what the British are doing. I wonder if they'd ever go there. Probably the closest we've had is the Nine Eyes thing in Spectre.
  • edited May 2020 Posts: 113
    Bond being so pissed off through the film contrasted with Scaramanga being so charming makes the final showdown feel as if Bond is merely killing a guy because he doesn’t like him. It’s one of the inherent problems that arose from not having enough time to fully flesh out the script between the Mankiewicz and Maibaum drafts and giving everyone enough time fo rest after LALD.
    Andrea being the plot instigator is inspired as is the solex as a maguffin but the issue is that once they are established the film does little to nothing with them.

    Everyone acknowledged they should have given a little more time between films. That’s the primary issue but I still adore GG with all my heart and it has inspired moments aplenty.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Yeah, the beginning with Bond being sent the bullet and tracking down Lazar is rather brilliant (as long as you ignore that he goes all the way to Beirut to retrieve a golden bullet when he’s already got one!), and the film only really falls apart once he gets sent to the karate school.
  • Posts: 5,772
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, the beginning with Bond being sent the bullet and tracking down Lazar is rather brilliant (as long as you ignore that he goes all the way to Beirut to retrieve a golden bullet when he’s already got one!), and the film only really falls apart once he gets sent to the karate school.

    The bullet he got in the mail was just a prop. He needed a real bullet which had been fired by Scaramanga to track him down.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Well it was one of Scaramanga's bullets, wasn't it? Or at least Bond had no reason to believe it wasn't.
  • Posts: 5,772
    Well, if the wounds made by Scaramanga were smaller than what could possibly be made with the bullet he was sent, yes, he had reasons to doubt that the bullet he was sent was sent by Scaramanga. Simple ballistics, really. It's like being sent a .45 bullet by an assassin who only uses .22 bullets.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 14,861
    Gerard wrote: »
    Well, if the wounds made by Scaramanga were smaller than what could possibly be made with the bullet he was sent, yes, he had reasons to doubt that the bullet he was sent was sent by Scaramanga.

    And did that actually happen?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, the beginning with Bond being sent the bullet and tracking down Lazar is rather brilliant (as long as you ignore that he goes all the way to Beirut to retrieve a golden bullet when he’s already got one!), and the film only really falls apart once he gets sent to the karate school.

    Chula! Chula! Chula! lol for some reason I like that scene and the character. Memorable.
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